Ignorance Taken To The Next Level.

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Ignorance taken to the next level.
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 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-12-06 15:40:26
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
I'm not sure you understand evolutionary genetics completely. Animals (which we are) are usually just adapted/evolve to survive and nothing more- overkill is a waste of energy and resources. It may be survival of the fitest, but nature has time and time again proven that there is always a better design. Perfect would also imply no mistakes. We have plenty of genetic diseases. Perfect would also mean we wouldn't be evolving. And the length of human history is way to short to do any analysis of evolving but there are lots of ideas on where we are heading.
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
1.) Nothing is perfect
The human body is perfect, but life is not.
If you forgot what I previously said lol. Also, the human body can not evolve.

LOL... you have a lot to learn.
 
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By 2010-12-06 15:46:49
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 Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2010-12-06 15:57:48
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
I'm not sure you understand evolutionary genetics completely. Animals (which we are) are usually just adapted/evolve to survive and nothing more- overkill is a waste of energy and resources. It may be survival of the fitest, but nature has time and time again proven that there is always a better design. Perfect would also imply no mistakes. We have plenty of genetic diseases. Perfect would also mean we wouldn't be evolving. And the length of human history is way to short to do any analysis of evolving but there are lots of ideas on where we are heading.
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
1.) Nothing is perfect
The human body is perfect, but life is not.
If you forgot what I previously said lol. Also, the human body can not evolve.

I think I might be misunderstanding you here a bit, so bear with me as I try to have a non-jet debate with you.

The human body itself cannot evolve once you are born outside of some minor things you my be able to adapt to- but I suppose thats in the "design", but the species can and will do so. If a species evolves it means it found something better suited or more perfect as far as design.

If you made a perfect car you would never need to tweak it or change the design right?
 
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By 2010-12-06 16:09:31
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 Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2010-12-06 16:12:53
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
If you made a perfect car you would never need to tweak it or change the design right?
This will of course go back to faith or not sorta, but a human's design is not the same as God's personal design; hence why it's a "perfect" design and why human's can not and will never evolve.

I see...but thats assuming God can't work through evolution.
 Phoenix.Excelior
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By Phoenix.Excelior 2010-12-06 16:12:57
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
I'm not sure you understand evolutionary genetics completely. Animals (which we are) are usually just adapted/evolve to survive and nothing more- overkill is a waste of energy and resources. It may be survival of the fitest, but nature has time and time again proven that there is always a better design. Perfect would also imply no mistakes. We have plenty of genetic diseases. Perfect would also mean we wouldn't be evolving. And the length of human history is way to short to do any analysis of evolving but there are lots of ideas on where we are heading.
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
1.) Nothing is perfect
The human body is perfect, but life is not.
If you forgot what I previously said lol. Also, the human body can not evolve.
LOL... you have a lot to learn.
LOL... likewise.

The human body is still capable of evolution. We, ourselves, can not evolve while we're alive. Humans as a species are capable of evolution. Since we are not an animal that uses any abilities other than mental ones it would only make sense that our evolution would be our mental capacity. It is also possible that human evolution is a simply the evolution of society and how we adapt to the world surrounding us. Yea.... You should read.
 Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2010-12-06 16:15:45
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Phoenix.Excelior said:
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Phoenix.Excelior said:
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
I'm not sure you understand evolutionary genetics completely. Animals (which we are) are usually just adapted/evolve to survive and nothing more- overkill is a waste of energy and resources. It may be survival of the fitest, but nature has time and time again proven that there is always a better design. Perfect would also imply no mistakes. We have plenty of genetic diseases. Perfect would also mean we wouldn't be evolving. And the length of human history is way to short to do any analysis of evolving but there are lots of ideas on where we are heading.
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said:
1.) Nothing is perfect
The human body is perfect, but life is not.
If you forgot what I previously said lol. Also, the human body can not evolve.
LOL... you have a lot to learn.
LOL... likewise.
The human body is still capable of evolution. We, ourselves, can not evolve while we're alive. Humans as a species are capable of evolution. Since we are not an animal that uses any abilities other than mental ones it would only make sense that our evolution would be our mental capacity. It is also possible that human evolution is a simply the evolution of society and how we adapt to the world surrounding us. Yea.... You should read.

Not sure if its all mental. We seem to be trending towards less hair, and they say we will gradually lose our small toe. They also say the male of the species will become more scarce, but I did not understand the mechanism they described when I read that way back...then again I didn't understand the explaination of the all female species of fish either...
 
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By 2010-12-06 16:36:18
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 Ragnarok.Anye
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2010-12-06 16:41:09
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Just to clarify: Evolution on a genetic level occurs over long, long periods of time.

First, a mutation has to occur, against which the human body has developed several complex mechanisms (less complex species have fewer). Secondly, the mutation has to be phenotypically visible--in other words, it has to manifest itself in some sort of biochemical process that affects the organism's vitality. Thirdly, the mutation has to be beneficial to a large degree for it to be passed on; if not beneficial, then the organism would have less of a chance in its shortened lifetime to pass on the mutation, depending on its lifespan and sexual maturity. Fourthly, the mutation has to be so prominent and prevalent in several individuals of a species for it to be passed on from generation to generation--even then, it takes a considerable amount of time for it to actually manifest itself regularly in an entire species, and, given the amount of human sexual interaction with each other, would take several hundreds of years at the least.

That being said, evolution has a wide variety of interpretations; generally the word implies a process of development, so human evolution could very well entail the (exponential) development of human intelligence, or even the mechanism by which our immune systems continuously develop antibodies against antigens throughout our entire lives.

-edit- Something like "less hair" would be considered phenotypic plasticity by biologists, and not a result of genetic mutation.

That said, I am of the opinion that the idea of evolution via genetic mutation does not eliminate the possibility of the existence of a creator God.

Bahamut.Jetackuu said:
scientific method is perfect, to say it requires faith is laughable.
I can't stand this. As a science major, I cannot abide this. There are so many things I cannot say given my position. So. many. things.

The scientific method is BASED on the idea of making assumptions which are themselves based on previous studies--the hypothesis. Even theories we once understood to be "proven fact" are debunkable.
 
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By 2010-12-06 16:53:41
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 Ragnarok.Anye
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2010-12-06 16:56:36
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Aside from the God stuff though, what possible evolution would humans benefit from? Nothing.
Wings would be friggin' sweet.
 Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2010-12-06 16:58:13
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Aside from the God stuff though, what possible evolution would humans benefit from? Nothing. So again, evolution is not possible in a human body, except for DNA transported data within the human sperm.

What wouldn't a human benefit from?

What if the human mind/body could repair itself quicker and require less sleep?
 
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By 2010-12-06 17:03:03
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 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-12-06 17:05:49
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Aside from the God stuff though, what possible evolution would humans benefit from? Nothing.
I want to be Aquaman.

 Ragnarok.Anye
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2010-12-06 17:09:08
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I believe that though the human body and its processes aren't quite as fast or efficient as we think they should be, it's quite optimal--I wouldn't say perfect; just optimal.

As a very general example, we're able to generate ~30 ATP (units of energy), give or take a few molecules, per molecule of carbohydrates. It could generate more, but it's interesting to note that the energy given off as heat as a result of cellular respiration is enough to facilitate the maintenance of the body's optimal temperature at which all the body's proteins are optimally functional.
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-12-06 17:10:23
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That's pretty cool Anye, but when do I get to talk to the ocean's animals?
 Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2010-12-06 17:11:20
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The point is there is improvement all the time. How about resistance to AIDS/Cancer etc?

Other than that your answer made less sense to me than Blind's. Least he is striving t evolve...just remember...not all those bubbles in the background are air bubbles...
 Ragnarok.Anye
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2010-12-06 17:11:46
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Ragnarok.Blindphleb said:
That's pretty cool Anye, but when do I get to talk to the ocean's animals?
You can now, just... take pics :D

Dolphins have been estimated to have intelligence of 5-year-olds, though. (Heard it somewhere; don't quote me directly!) You might not get much out of them than, "OMG LETS PLAAAAAAAAY~~~~~~"
 Ragnarok.Harpunnik
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By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2010-12-06 17:13:24
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Ragnarok.Anye said:
I believe that though the human body and its processes aren't quite as fast or efficient as we think they should be, it's quite optimal--I wouldn't say perfect; just optimal. As a very general example, we're able to generate ~30 ATP (units of energy), give or take a few molecules, per molecule of carbohydrates. It could generate more, but it's interesting to note that the energy given off as heat as a result of cellular respiration is enough to facilitate the maintenance of the body's optimal temperature at which all the body's proteins are optimally functional.

Thank you for some actual logic in this thread Anye. Yes, humans are a good design, if we were not, we wouldn't be here. Thats my point, you just added some stuff that probably scares some people on this board.

And thanks for the smack down on phenotypic plasticity. You did pwn my @$$ there.
 Bismarck.Nevill
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By Bismarck.Nevill 2010-12-06 17:19:13
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Everyone likes a good spanking from Anye.
 
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 Bismarck.Nevill
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By Bismarck.Nevill 2010-12-06 17:21:49
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Is 30 ATP (units of energy) the cap within the human capacity atm?

For now, but wait til the next update.
[+]
 
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By 2010-12-06 17:22:40
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 Bismarck.Nevill
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By Bismarck.Nevill 2010-12-06 17:24:43
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Bismarck.Nevill said:
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Is 30 ATP (units of energy) the cap within the human capacity atm?
For now, but wait til the next update.
Do you have to pay for it though?
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Bismarck.Nevill said:
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Is 30 ATP (units of energy) the cap within the human capacity atm?
For now, but wait til the next update.
Do you have to pay for it though?

Nah, the limit breaks are free.
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By Dubont 2010-12-06 17:28:38
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Bismarck.Nevill said:
Everyone likes a good spanking from Anye.
bow chicka bow wow
 Ragnarok.Anye
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2010-12-06 17:32:06
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Bismarck.Nevill said:
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Is 30 ATP (units of energy) the cap within the human capacity atm?
For now, but wait til the next update.
Do you have to pay for it though?
LOL XD

Optimally, yes. Realistically, no. We could generate more, and I could go into about half a picometer of the specifics (; ; there's so much I don't know, and so much the scientific community itself doesn't know and is trying to find out), but from what we do know, life as a biochemical equation is in a very precise balance. Tipping one side in favor of, say, generating more ATP would disrupt hundreds of (known) biological mechanisms, and who's to say how many thousands or tens of thousands there truly are?

Even with a very basic knowledge of biochemistry, I think it should be understood by everyone that the fact that there are so many healthy people is a miracle. And may I also stress that the fact that we can endure so much disease and still manage to live (even without pharmaceutics, which is itself a miracle we even USE half of the stuff without ever knowing the other 75% (random large number pulled out of thin air; again, don't quote me XD) of how it can affect the body) is another miracle itself.

Hell, what with all the chemical reagents and substances and not to mention the amount of natural and synthetic radioactivity known to be harmful to the body that's already IN or has already affected our bodies as a result of our lifestyles--we should be thanking whoever or whatever made this damned thing we're ***' alive. It's a tank.
[+]
 Bismarck.Nevill
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By Bismarck.Nevill 2010-12-06 17:38:42
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Ragnarok.Anye said:
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Bismarck.Nevill said:
Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Is 30 ATP (units of energy) the cap within the human capacity atm?
For now, but wait til the next update.
Do you have to pay for it though?
LOL XD Optimally, yes. Realistically, no. We could generate more, and I could go into about half a picometer of the specifics (; ; there's so much I don't know, and so much the scientific community itself doesn't know and is trying to find out), but from what we do know, life as a biochemical equation is in a very precise balance. Tipping one side in favor of, say, generating more ATP would disrupt hundreds of (known) biological mechanisms, and who's to say how many thousands or tens of thousands there truly are? Even with a very basic knowledge of biochemistry, I think it should be understood by everyone that the fact that there are so many healthy people is a miracle. And may I also stress that the fact that we can endure so much disease and still manage to live (even without pharmaceutics, which is itself a miracle we even USE half of the stuff without ever knowing the other 75% (random large number pulled out of thin air; again, don't quote me XD) of how it can affect the body) is another miracle itself. Hell, what with all the chemical reagents and substances and not to mention the amount of natural and synthetic radioactivity known to be harmful to the body that's already IN or has already affected our bodies as a result of our lifestyles--we should be thanking whoever or whatever made this damned thing we're ***' alive. It's a tank.

All the things I have done to my body through the years, I don't know how my body is still healthy.
 
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By 2010-12-06 17:39:20
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 Ragnarok.Anye
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2010-12-06 17:41:53
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NO MAB, NO

You are NOT going to Kanye my PLD, so help me D:
 Ragnarok.Blindphleb
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By Ragnarok.Blindphleb 2010-12-06 17:43:11
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Lakshmi.Mabrook said:
Ragnarok.Anye said:
It's a tank.
SAM and MNK is better though :o
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