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Kantonotachi Vs. Masamune, The Great Debate!
 Ragnarok.Azryel
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 317
By Ragnarok.Azryel 2012-01-25 10:36:28
In my humblest of opinions, due to the extreme ease of making a TP bonus GK, you should have one just because... Any serious SAM- which I am not, mind you- should keep their options open. In my personal testing I've found 5/5 Tachi: Shoha to be superior to Tachi: Fudo almost every time... This is based specifically on WS damage, and done as close to 100 TP as possible- aftermath (as my GK is WoE) and higher TP Fudos are not factored here. As with anything, there are going to be situations where one thing outshines the other, but lately I've been using my TP bonus GK and Shoha spamming... It's just fun. I know Abyssea isn't really the thing anymore, but out of a moment of pure boredom I opted to help someone farm seals yesterday, and using Voracious Violet, Alpha and Omega, and Apocalypse, the amount of pure rape was mind-boggling... But being that it was seal farming, I did quickly lose interest, despite the ~8k+ Shohas I was pumpin' out :P
As I said, no reason to not make both if you're into that, the TP Bonus weapons are pretty easy to make, but remember that we're talking actual Masa here, not the WOE versions. The additional strength and ODD have to be factored into the discussion. And not to mention base damage.
WOE stuff is fun to play with, but it's certainly nowhere in the ballpark of the real weapon in most situations.
I wouldn't say "nowhere near" the real weapon, but the actual empyrean would be better on a similarly geared, similarly skilled player... I'm by no means a career SAM, but I still have capped haste with a 5-hit build, so I'm getting up to 100 TP very quickly... I don't think ODD is a real game changer in that respect- it's nice, don't get me wrong, but I don't think an ODD melee swing here and there is going to make up the difference from using a lesser damage WS. Now if you're busting out Dusty Wings every 20 seconds in Voidwatch, then yes, by all means I'd be rockin' out some Fudos, but if you're just going for a straight up 5-swing then WS DoT, I think TP bonus with Shoha would have the advantage... And as stated before, this is all in my humblest of opinions..
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2012-01-25 10:48:44
You don't need to defend WOE weapons to me; I've got three of them myself for jobs I don’t enjoy enough to make the real weapons*; I'm just saying that there is a noticeable difference between the weapons in a lot of cases. In the case of great katana, while the Fudo damage may not be drastically different, there will be a bit of a change none-the-less, and I really do think your white damage will suffer a lot.
*On the note of WOE, I find it far easier than everyone else on this forum seems to. For a while I was doing runs on BST and RNG because I could do a run in 10-15 minutes and then spend 45 minutes doing other things around the house. Did this for a few hours on weekend mornings/days off over the course of a couple of months and got MORE than enough coins for dagger, bow and katana; if I picked it up again I’d probably be able to do another three weapons in relatively short order. Yes, farming Empyreans items can be done quickly but it’s really sort of intense, especially when two-boxing, and sometimes you just wanna play on a less all-encompassing level.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 510
By Asura.Vrytreya 2012-01-25 11:15:19
*On the note of WOE, I find it far easier than everyone else on this forum seems to. Likewise,
WoE slower than empy.. I don't understand. At least until +2 you can make it fast enough.
By Fupafighters 2012-01-25 11:15:39
Shoha favors Masa (10-20str)
No it doesn't.
+20 STR would be about a 5% increase in shoha damage. (assuming capped cratio)
+100 TP would be about a 29% increase in shoha damage. (assuming capped cratio)
That's after accounting for DA, which benefits Masamune more due to it's lower http://FTP.
You'd need +100 str on masamune for it to be superior to kantanotachi for shoha because of the str. It's base damage is more beneficial to Shoha than the str increase.
The gap is closed the higher the TP, but assuming TP spamming, Kantanotachi would be better for Shoha.
Masamune would only be better for Shoha given an impossibly high defense mob. And I mean, impossibly high, 1k+.
That being said, 90+ Masamune+Fudo is better on anything that you're capping or near capped attack, which is plausible on most of the lower tier voidwatches. And for the really strong stuff where you can't cap attack with Fudo, Masamune AM3+Shoha is still going to out perform Kantanotachi.
But no, Kantanotachi > Masamune for Shoha. I'm going to make a freakin tp bonus and prove its nothing like having aftermath lol...
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By Fupafighters 2012-01-25 11:16:19
Aand we know it better for shoha, we have known this since it came out...
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2012-01-25 11:31:17
*On the note of WOE, I find it far easier than everyone else on this forum seems to. Likewise, WoE slower than empy.. I don't understand. At least until +2 you can make it fast enough.
Well, it's slower in the sense that you can only run once per game day and you are subject to some degree of blind luck with chests (see: my 40 coins of Ruin.../stare...), but in actual time investment, they're faster. At least in my experience.
You can rush through an Empyrean faster. But like I said. It's kind of intense and you've got to be going non-stop. Competing for mobs in some cases.
Anyhow. Either way. As pertains to this thread, it's safe to say WOE weapons can be worthwhile to some degree, but aren't going to figure even minimally in a "best of" conversation.
Cerberus.Taint
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1514
By Cerberus.Taint 2012-01-25 11:48:10
Shoha favors Masa (10-20str) No it doesn't. blah blah blah
WTF is this?
I was comparing Masa to Amano...
Yes TP bonus has the highest Shoha average. It doesn't touch the damage output of Masa or Amano though. The biggest advantage of TPbonus comes at 100tp, every TP over 100 it loses it advantage. TP overflow happens all the time with SAM and can be forced with Sekka/haga/wings, etc.
99TP bonus vs 90 masa
WS damage only
At 100tp Shoha
TP bonus wins by 16%
At 150 tp
TP bonus wins by 9%
At 200 tp
TP bonus wins by 2%
Bahamut.Danthebk
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 198
By Bahamut.Danthebk 2012-01-25 12:25:22
Shoha favors Masa (10-20str)
No it doesn't.
+20 STR would be about a 5% increase in shoha damage. (assuming capped cratio)
+100 TP would be about a 29% increase in shoha damage. (assuming capped cratio)
That's after accounting for DA, which benefits Masamune more due to it's lower http://FTP.
You'd need +100 str on masamune for it to be superior to kantanotachi for shoha because of the str. It's base damage is more beneficial to Shoha than the str increase.
The gap is closed the higher the TP, but assuming TP spamming, Kantanotachi would be better for Shoha.
Masamune would only be better for Shoha given an impossibly high defense mob. And I mean, impossibly high, 1k+.
That being said, 90+ Masamune+Fudo is better on anything that you're capping or near capped attack, which is plausible on most of the lower tier voidwatches. And for the really strong stuff where you can't cap attack with Fudo, Masamune AM3+Shoha is still going to out perform Kantanotachi.
But no, Kantanotachi > Masamune for Shoha. I'm going to make a freakin tp bonus and prove its nothing like having aftermath lol...
Did you even read my post? I said Masamune was better regardless.
There is no need to make the Kantanotachi to prove anything, since the only thing a parse ever proves is that people still don't understand the difference between the potential of a job and it's gear and the potential of a player.
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Bahamut.Danthebk
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 198
By Bahamut.Danthebk 2012-01-25 12:26:16
Shoha favors Masa (10-20str) No it doesn't. blah blah blah
WTF is this?
I was comparing Masa to Amano...
Yes TP bonus has the highest Shoha average. It doesn't touch the damage output of Masa or Amano though. The biggest advantage of TPbonus comes at 100tp, every TP over 100 it loses it advantage. TP overflow happens all the time with SAM and can be forced with Sekka/haga/wings, etc.
99TP bonus vs 90 masa
WS damage only
At 100tp Shoha
TP bonus wins by 16%
At 150 tp
TP bonus wins by 9%
At 200 tp
TP bonus wins by 2%
Oh well, duh, Masa is better than Amano for Shoha, no question. I just assumed Kantanotachi vs Masamune because I skimmed the thread and that was the thread title.
By Starkzz 2012-01-25 12:52:58
Are we saying 95 amano > kanto in VW? coz, no. Not even gonna comment on Masa with this "keep AM3 up etc and its boss blah blah" stop living in a perfect world, in VW theres tons of things that make this lolzy, namely: getting petri'd/slept(with fana up) and slow mages, which is generally the case or just flat out dying. Other situtions, like Pil's shild, etc etc that make AM unreliable, also the fact that you don't melee much and wont always get temps recharged fast, this is esp gonna be the case when SE nerfs procs/temp item regains. but brb melee'ing to 300tp for AM (which mind you doesn't take long, but in that time other SAMs have dished out 3-4 WS's already) to then get petri/slept or other dumb sitiuations rendering that AM wasted.
again, stop living in a perfect world
and inb4 dumb VW parses, yeah just don't.
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2012-01-25 13:05:01
Are we saying 95 amano > kanto in VW? coz, no. Not even gonna comment on Masa with this "keep AM3 up etc and its boss blah blah" stop living in a perfect world, in VW theres tons of things that make this lolzy, namely: getting petri'd/slept(with fana up) and slow mages, which is generally the case or just flat out dying. Other situtions, like Pil's shild, etc etc that make AM unreliable, also the fact that you don't melee much and wont always get temps recharged fast, this is esp gonna be the case when SE nerfs procs/temp item regains. but brb melee'ing to 300tp for AM (which mind you doesn't take long, but in that time other SAMs have dished out 3-4 WS's already) to then get petri/slept or other dumb sitiuations rendering that AM wasted. again, stop living in a perfect world and inb4 dumb VW parses, yeah just don't.
There's some merit to your argument that you have to consider standard playing situations vs. ideal situations. But your attitude here is clearly one that's going to brook no discussion, so I guess there's no point in trying to explain anything else. =\
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Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 88
By Valefor.Whitetiger 2012-01-25 13:55:10
Okay, I meant this thread to be Masamune vs Kantonotachi.
From what I'm reading, Masamune is worth it unless you're in Voidwatch with Miser's Roll giving you a Huge Save TP bonus?
Bahamut.Danthebk
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 198
By Bahamut.Danthebk 2012-01-25 14:04:19
Yes, Kantanotachi is only better when the mob has an incredibly high defense so that Masamune can't cap attack, and/or you're sporting an absurdly low x-hit (read as: 2-hit) which renders the aftermath borderline useless.
So if you're doing a Jeuno T6, with no temp items, as /nin, with no food, and an 11 miser's roll, with +20 save tp from atmacite, Kantanotachi is probably a better bet.
But if you're using food, sub war, and stalwarts, with no corsair, and you really should have the atmacite even in worst case scenario. Masamune, using Fudo, at 90, is better.
Cerberus.Taint
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1514
By Cerberus.Taint 2012-01-25 14:07:10
Are we saying 95 amano > kanto in VW? coz, no. Not even gonna comment on Masa with this "keep AM3 up etc and its boss blah blah" stop living in a perfect world, in VW theres tons of things that make this lolzy, namely: getting petri'd/slept(with fana up) and slow mages, which is generally the case or just flat out dying. Other situtions, like Pil's shild, etc etc that make AM unreliable, also the fact that you don't melee much and wont always get temps recharged fast, this is esp gonna be the case when SE nerfs procs/temp item regains. but brb melee'ing to 300tp for AM (which mind you doesn't take long, but in that time other SAMs have dished out 3-4 WS's already) to then get petri/slept or other dumb sitiuations rendering that AM wasted. again, stop living in a perfect world and inb4 dumb VW parses, yeah just don't.
What kind of noob babble is this? Shield,stone,death effect everyone...AM is super easy to keep up, you don't need 300tp lol and Fudo is not a bad WS. Masa and Amano both ***on TPbonus GKT.
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Bahamut.Danthebk
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 198
By Bahamut.Danthebk 2012-01-25 14:11:42
Fighting to be the best GK weaponskill imo. Shoha does have a higher WSC, and an attack mod. But when attack is capped, the higher FTP offered by Fudo is more valuable than the additional WSC.
Of course, the higher leveled VWNMs make Shoha more valuable due to their high defenses, that still doesn't make Fudo completely worthless.
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 298
By Shiva.Schatzie 2012-01-25 15:15:59
what did i tell you people, masamune looks coole, and therefore negates all further fact!
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19407
By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-01-25 15:21:10
looks like a giant blue bottle opener tbh
 Phoenix.Sehachan
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-01-25 15:22:46
Kanto at least looks like a real nodachi, Masa doesn't even make sense as a samurai sword.
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Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19407
By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-01-25 15:25:36
To give it some props, it looks like something that Auron would wield.
Serveur: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3189
By Fenrir.Skarwind 2012-01-25 15:29:53
Masamune honestly looks like it would be a Great Sword. Something similar to Naglering/Balin's Sword. Or it even resembles Hofud slightly.
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Phoenix.Sehachan
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-01-25 15:57:48
Valefor.Prothescar said: »To give it some props, it looks like something that Auron would wield. 
I think it was actually inspired by Auron's sword.
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Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19407
By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-01-25 16:09:31
Wouldn't be surprised, there are striking similarities, though ironically it looks more like his basic Katana than his Masamune. In fact, it looks nothing like his Masamune. That'd be a pretty bad *** GS model tho.
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Leviathan.Draylo
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
By Leviathan.Draylo 2012-01-25 16:12:03
Masamune is cool cuz it waz Sephiroth weapon ^^
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Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 94
By Ragnarok.Jajabiondina 2012-01-26 18:20:20
I did some math and in my case with the gear i plan to use masa will start catching up kanto on weak mobs only at lv 90 (fudo vs shoha i mean).
In vw kanto will win over 99 masa anyway cause you ws and and 1 hit after you ws again so no time for aftermath to catch up.
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 298
By Shiva.Schatzie 2012-01-27 06:36:54
Quote: despite the ~8k+ Shohas I was pumpin' out :P why do i find this incredibly hard to believe?
Cerberus.Taint
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1514
By Cerberus.Taint 2012-01-27 10:32:24
Ragnarok.Jajabiondina said: »I did some math and in my case with the gear i plan to use masa will start catching up kanto on weak mobs only at lv 90 (fudo vs shoha i mean). In vw kanto will win over 99 masa anyway cause you ws and and 1 hit after you ws again so no time for aftermath to catch up.
TP overage, Haga, Sekka, AM make them about equal in VW with 40-45 savetp and 8-10 regain.
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 94
By Ragnarok.Jajabiondina 2012-01-27 11:08:08
Wouldnt hagakure and other save tp favor even more kanto? you get close to 0 aftermath, i find myself in need to just keep down alt palete and press shoha every 2sec.
Cerberus.Taint
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1514
By Cerberus.Taint 2012-01-27 11:49:31
Ragnarok.Jajabiondina said: »Wouldnt hagakure and other save tp favor even more kanto? you get close to 0 aftermath, i find myself in need to just keep down alt palete and press shoha every 2sec.
No at 200tp Shoha is almost equal. Any DAs favor masa. You are also swinging atleast once but most of the time twice between WSs. (more with DA,zanhasso etc) Even though I agree it can happen while Shoha's animation is still going.
Masa/Amano also gain ground fast anytime you have to use Proc WSs or waiting on Amnesia.
In a perfect bubble there are definitely times where TPbonus could out damage Amano/Masa but as you know its almost impossible to WS at 100tp where TPbonus really shines.
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 94
By Ragnarok.Jajabiondina 2012-01-27 12:22:00
Yea but proc time you wont fudo anyway so no AM, also amnesia wont let you fudo for AM so...
Valefor.Endoq
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6906
By Valefor.Endoq 2012-01-27 13:52:14
i use a wooden katana, like a boss
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With the addition of getting Tachi: Shoha (5/5 Of course), the TP Bonus Kantonotachi appears to be far superior compared to the Masamune (Pre-Afterglow new additions...)
This of course leads me to the question:
Is a Masamune worth getting?
Arguments for Yes:
1.You do not get access to Tachi: Fudo.
2.You do not get access to the Aftermath.
3.You do not have a badass Blue Great Katana.
4.The Damage over time for this weapon would be far superior to the Kantonotachi.
Arguments for No:
1.The TP Bonus for Tachi: Shoha's weaponskills will outshine Masamune's Tachi: Shoha's and possibly Fudo's.
2.Since Samurai's main focus is weaponskills, most of its Damage over time will be coming from Weapon skills and not individual swings.
3.Tachi: Fudo is an obsolete weaponskill compared to Tachi: Shoha (5/5).
These are just some point's that I have come across from asking many Samurai's on Valefor. Maybe FFXIAH could put an end to this debate.
Is the Masamune worth getting or should Samurai's just get the Kantonotachi with TP Bonus on it?
PS: This is just from what I've heard, I do not have either. If there is any information that may be incorrect please correct in the comments to this topic. I did not come across a thread like this in the Samurai threads either, if there is one, please send the link. Thanks~
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