The Odyssey - || Strategy And Discussion ||

Odyssey doesn't make regular player join PUG on jobs that they want to play. It's not like people shout for THF for Kalunga or Ngai when a THF main wants to do them. Even on xevioso I bet PUG will pick war DRG DNC before a THF.

You are overestimating the effectiveness of forced job diversity. It doesn't change much compare with pre-Odyssey. Dedicated niche job players will continue to use their mains and experiment with friends, PUGs will follow meta no matter what. Except forced limitation makes it more time consuming to be ready for a content. I'd rather see both dedicated player and PUG are allowed to play the game however they want.


Not really, 2 out of 3 examples that I provided are solo situations thus the job isn't needed. I can Eva tank cleave omen on Blu THF instead of cor too. I just choose cor because I enjoy experiment and playing with different niche builds, and really don't care enough to force the rest of the meta chasers play FFXI the same way as me.

Someone on this forum said it right, but cant remember who. Best SE can do with current resources without rebalancing whole game is give us scenarios where some jobs are desired or at least useful even for at least one meaningful part of endgame (this was referencing BLM being needed for Ongo).

I am just being realistic with my expectation. You are being very optimistic. You can clearly see the direction they choose. Nerf geomancy, nerf same WS usage, WS wall, BP wall, massive MDT/MDB or SDT etc. They are clearly using limits for a reason and that reason is much easier development with limited stuff.

I think the poor XI devs are just beaten down and battered by an unruly playerbase that has never for the life of them just done content or fights the way developers have originally envisioned. So they are just finally taking all of our fun toys away because it's the easiest solution for them to ensure fights are done more inline with how they imagined them to be. Rather than how the playerbase exploits them to be.

I've definitely held this sentiment for the past couple years regarding BLM- not sure who was 'first' to put such a thought to paper, but it is something a couple of us have espoused esp regarding that job.

Regarding the prior comment of "wanting the dedicated and the PUG player to enjoy the game like they want"....that can only go so far. The current desire of the casual player (and probably their mentality from day one) is to find the fastest route to acceptable gearing to gain access to participation in the content- and for about 90% of the game right now that's building a Naegling WAR. That single-mindedness does not mesh with a game that sports 22 jobs. There's just no way to balance the desires of that person with someone who's been playing endgame for a decade+ and has a corral of jobs all primed and ready.

Again, the problem is not the content- its the expectations of the playerbase that brute force will always be the solution. The content scales so that effort matches reward- this is different to the past where effort matched speed of receiving the reward. Grinders who didn't have the experience or resources could still eventually have the same rewards as the most experienced players in the game- those more experienced just got them faster. OR it was a scenario of straight luck where the equality was expressed through randomness not effort. Odyssey is the only system in the game where effort matches results. So if you're ok with putting in less effort, accept you'll have lesser rewards.

Brute force is always the solution.

We're just arguing over which form the brute should take.

if that statement were true, hybrid/DT sets still functional of solid dps numbers and defensive buffs would never be discussed. And to those who never consider them, and live in the world of spreadsheets that don't fight back, perhaps that's the case.


And those people unwilling to adjust are the ones getting left behind.

False. Some content we can ignore the mechanics by applying Brute Force i.e. Aeonic HELMs (AFAC burn), Vagary Savage Blade spam, Sortie 1.0 bosses etc. Newer content has made this much more difficult to do.

If it wasn't then people wouldn't cry and complain about "job X isn't competitive".

We use defensive measures not because we want to, but because dead DD's deal no damage, ergo we are still optimizing for total damage. If a DD changes gear to be 5% less effective but lives twice as long, they've increased their effective DPS by 90%.

I mean.....I'm almost 100% positive we're on the same core side, just gripping to various facets that on the surface appear contradictory.

The players not being left behind are making those adjustments....but there's a whole host of people who play this game and expect the same shinies with almost zero effort beyond a shopping list given to them on this site for a job. They aren't analyzing -DT pieces for minimal impact on their DPS....the mages aren't studying their idle/precast/midcast sets for matching MP...they aren't building niche sets for niche moments...because that would imply they have multiple sets.

A win is a win is a win.

SE drops the ball on balance all the time and waits until the next piece of content before they address game breaking problems. Some of us like a diversity of jobs and play styles. Others like fotm jobs that are simple and effective because they're tired of suffering fools that they have to carry. It's easy to enjoy brute force if you've ever cleared wave 3 with 4 good people out of a full alliance.

I personally think the way they're creating content with appropriate limitations is great. It's actually fun to play with other people. But I do think they should mix in some free for alls too. Part of this game is playing your job well and part of this game is breaking as hard as you can. I don't see why we can't have both, but I can see why we shouldn't have both at the same time.

Just pointing out that the community will always approach content with whatever method most efficiently reduces the boss's HP to 0.

The game doesn't really support anything else mechanically. Even "skillchain and burst" is just about maximizing the damage we do. If Ongo didn't have 95% resistance to slashing, we would all be savage blading it to death. If Mboze couldn't instantly wipe your party, we would be savage blading it, heck there is a Rampart method that does exactly that. If the sortie basement bosses didn't have a 10s wall on weapon skills, we would just savage them down in a minute or less.

And it doesn't have to be savage blade, that's just a super easy way that everyone in the party can not make any skillchain that would heal or rage the boss.

I remember when voidwatch first came out. Before all the spreadsheet warriors ruined the fun. We tried to bring tons of different jobs for procs. That was such a weird time and fun even tho it was a forced kind of balance. I dont mind those things, even when it started in abyssea.

Nerf geomancy, same WS wall, bp wall, massive mdt etc doesn't feel nearly as forced as not being able to use a job's JA because of job/SJ lock though. It's ability nerf, not reducing choices available to the player.

Despite the geomancy nerf geo still isn't completely useless in v15, arguably usable in v20 too. You can just do buffing bubbles and that works. It's just less appealing now, but not completely useless.

Same can be said for WS/BP wall. You can still spam leaden in dyna D you just need to add a different WS between them. Or use SMN in any content with BP wall except you can't Zerg with zero delay.

That doesn't feel nearly as limited as the game straight tell me I can't use curaga as rdm because SJ is locked, or I can't bring rdm at all because another member is on rdm. It's not just choices being nerfed, it's choice being completely gone. Resulting less choices overall.

I am 100% okay with ability nerf for balance btw. But I just don't understand the logic behind making less choices available in a game focusing on collecting and building gear sets for different situations as the core gameplay. It effectively reduces the amount of useful gear sets. Like how FC and waltz set are no longer useful for cor in gaol. Totally doesn't make sense.

Geomancy nerf isnt directed to exclude Geomancer, its directed to include other form of def/att/mnd down and attack up. With geomancy working at full power, BogEa frailty alone was enough or almost enough (for sure enough with dia II) to cap your attack on everything.


Exactly. It's a limit for one thing to start using other things.


Except when you have all those choices, 95% people choose from 10 jobs top and other are virtual options. Other jobs wont be a real options unless you make them competitive. Again, for the 4th time, you can make them competitive by setting limits or benefits, because rebalancing whole game is out of the window idea for now and possibly future. SE clearly choosing limits. As long as those limits are set per event and create diversity in endgame, I'm fine with that. I understand you prefer benefits, but it's not happening.


Lets say you can use same jobs and you have sub jobs. Tell me please, that you really believe Xevioso PUGs would use anything else beside 2x Sakpata/Nyame WAR/SAM with Shining One. Having all the choices means that you have access to overpowered choices and none wants to use anything subpar then.

I feel like it'll be like "all attributes +5" or something. Maybe even +10? Kinda more excited to see what new augs the accessories will get tbh. :)

The only thing I hope to be true is that 4th line will be entirely dependant on path for nyame. If all of nyame gets the same generic 4th line it's kinda a kick to the face of pet nyame users. Idk for specifics, just that every path gets it's own 4th line would be my only hope.

Would be fun to unlock a second set of nyame. It would solve some inventory problem for sure lol

Voidwatch did "force" job diversity, but it was all tongue-in-cheek. You didn't invite the PUP or BLU because you valued their unique skills. You simply included them because they may have been needed to proc and advance in the boss forward. That felt a lot more forced than Gaol bosses, where you're inviting different jobs that actually can contribute to a working strategy, especially when people have those jobs geared up to a higher level. Even still, I was ok with Voidwatch forcing parties to include other jobs, if only for a trivial reason.

The difference I feel between the two is that with Voidwatch, it never motivated players to level/gear other jobs. It was still just an option to include a variety of them, but you could still just /fume after 5 min and disregard that anyways. With Gaol, it tells you straight up you cant play unless you get 3 99 jobs, which seems weird but benefits players in the long run. I actually was motivated to upgrade many of my jobs to a playable endgame level so that I could actually contribute and enjoy the fights. In the end, I even started playing a few extra jobs that I probably would not have considered if I wasn't "forced" to in Gaol. Also, my job diversity in Gaol allowed for easier party forming as someone who often organized his own groups, since I no longer needed to find someone with a DNC, BLU, RDM, BLM, or PUP or w/e, because I could easily fill all of those.

So yeah, Gaol setup is forced, the same way that Voidwatch was forced. But Voidwatch changed very little in how players viewed a variety of jobs. I feel like Gaol at least had a net positive influence in how players utilize other niche jobs and how they can fit into a larger strategy, if only we weren't so focused on using repeated jobs or support jobs to fill the gap in whatever was needed.

Blah blah blah, why so much talking, just do the new content lol

No they are objectively not the same. The difference here is that if I am making a pt for dyna D and 3 cor wants to join, I have multiple ways to make it work: Make each cor uses different ws, make whm or BRD or tank melee and WS. multiple choices to solve the problems are available...at least it felt so.

With job lock if 3 cor wants to join my only option is to tell 2 of them leave, unless they can or willing to play a different job. In a game that people are playing for social purpose, it sure makes more people unhappier this way.

I feel I am talking in circles at this point. I get that you want job variety. I do too. But there are no clear evidence that job lock is the only way to accomplish that even if you believe so, and the downside of this mechanic is just too huge IMO.


Yes based from my past experience with PUG. While some pt will probably shout for war only, not ALL pt will. You keep posting DRG is the best seg farm DD, do PUG shout for DRG only for seg farm? The answer is no.

Honestly since 2017-18 as DD gets more balanced between them I haven't seen many PUG strongly forces one single DD for melee setup. The truth is that on most smaller server, people will take any DD that can do good enough DPS so they can 6/6 quickly and go. And most PUG doesn't even start shout without 2-3 friends.

For Xevioso the dps check isn't even that high. That makes 2 war unnecessary and some of the additional benefits from other jobs, such as waltz, is good enough for PUG to consider a non-war DD.

...Really Afania? >.>
It's a hell of a lot easier to find 5/5 Sakpata WAR with an Ambuscade weapon for a piercing-weak monster that has super dangerous attacks (because WARs are everywhere, easy to play and have incredible survivability) vs DRG which requires a Kraken Club OH and the correct builds to be competitive in Seg farming (not to mention less people play DRG).

You have a point, but it doesn't change the main point. Since very rarely PUG shout for war only in seg farm too. I've seen shouts like "heavy DD" "2hand DD" "veteran DD" "strong DD" but I rarely see "war only" except maybe 1 out of 30 super ultra picky PUG. So I'm not super convinced with the idea that every PUG will do war x2 only for Xevioso without limitation.

People are always looking for WAR in segment farming because of mix of what I mentioned, plus WAR can use 3 strong weapon types. Savage Blade spam is also simple and anyone can do it. I see a lot of people shouting for just a DD, but WAR is absolutely preferred there.

At rank 30 there will be a set bonus that allows you to use your sub job in oddy gaol. But the set bonus will be tied to having 5/5 R30 pieces. And once people finish 5/5 R30 they'll abandon the content forever, since at that point there are no more rewards left for them. So you still won't ever see people with sub jobs in gaol because everyone who unlocks them will choose to never fight the NM's ever again.

I was thinking for at least the melee job weapons, they might add a "TP Bonus + 250-500" stat to basically kill off most or all dependency on Magian OHs. Many of the weapons are already very good at R25, and since it would be an augment, the TP Bonus would indeed work in the offhand slot, so jobs could double dip with the benefit of all of the other stats on them.

I know this is just memeing and all, but this would legitimately be the worst design decision ever made. Even outside of the fact that it would break the design and balance of Sheol:Gaol, it would also be a nightmare to play around. BRD/WHM wants to cure? Make sure your precast and midcast both have 5/5 Nyame in them. WAR using Warcry? Oops you lost tons of HP and all stats because you lost your SJ when you swapped in your JSE. WHM casting any spells? Hope you've got 5/5 slots locked, or you just lost Light Arts and need to recast it.

This might be the absolute worst idea possible, and not only completely destroys Odyssey game design but also eliminates half of the FFXI game design by restricting 1/3 of your gear slots for almost the entire fight, depending on your job.

Guess it's just reflective of the hatred from the community about the subjob restriction. For my part, I think SJ restriction was the most interesting twist they've had in the game since encumbrance in Salvage. It's really interesting and adds new puzzles for you and your team to work around.

I'm sure back when Salvage was relevant content there were a bunch of geniuses complaining about how Salvage removed all their hard work and ruined the game because it was all about collecting gear and now they can't use their pretty gear for this event. Maybe these guys should get together and design their own game, they seem really good at it.

You don’t at all need a Kracken club to be competitive on DRG…

Define competitive. If you mean serviceable in a random PUG sure but like that's true for almost everything but MNK and DNC. If you mean in comparison to a Min/Maxed WAR whose BiS the DRG isn't gonna be able to keep up without that 50% increased WS rate advantage. RNGs in a similar boat too with K.Club.

But like let's be honest C farms have been so power crept by Ody augments, Empy +3, and MLs that most ragtag PUGs should be able to hit 8k+ segs per run. As long as you have a BRD COR and healer can pick any random 2-3 DDs and do okay. You know assuming at least decent play from the entire group.

C farms aren't boss fights there's a lot of room in them for versatility since it isn't a binary win or loss. Without any job restrictions on boss fights in Gaol I'd 100% be doing 2x WAR on Xevi, Ngai, Kalunga. 100% Warcry uptime, 2x MSs would melt these fights so fast no other strategy would even be close or worth trying. You might even be able to get away with some crazy Perfect Defense/Rampart Mboze zergs too.

where's the inhumane restrictions on Gaol fights?

Ongo? Oh noes, there's 1 fight that we've seen in 4 years of content releases where your friend who built a BLM when it was king finally gets to play his favorite job after a half decade of no one caring.

Kalunga? I've had v20 wins with both types of tank and 4 different main DDs.

Arebati? There are v20 videos out there of *** THFs building ranged sets and keeping up.

Mboze? This one got even more flexible in setup with the addition of the add, not less. Not to mention multiple strats again exist already (and that doesn't even count the things people haven't tried yet) to increase job variety- albeit at the expense of predictability, but wins are still possible.

Ngai? I freakin' melee GEO that thing. Tell me how in the world my experience is being 'restricted by forcing setups upon us'....

Xevioso? Please- I've participated in v20 wins that featured DRGs, SAMs, WARs, DNCs, THFs, RNGs...damn near anything.

Hell, they even PAY YOU GIL to farm segments now, and not some typical SE-styled 15k from the win. Legit income- for doing content that already has some of the best rewards in game.

Good lord, again I'll cite my grandma. "Y'all would complain if hung by a new rope"-

First, the content is too challenging for the average player to be successful outside of long-term statics. So over time highly successful strats are posted by those who are taking the time and experience to figure them out, and then share that knowledge to speed up others' progress. But no- that's not good enough because someone else's strategy that you are using with zero effort in creation doesn't match your FAVORITE JOB.

Then, SE releases Mog Amplifiers that honestly allow anyone to spam RP to r15 with almost zero effort- but since that's not "the bestest", no one goes that route. Y'all only want either capped augs or no augs, halfway there apparently isn't an acceptable starting point.

Then, SE gives you ML growth of your skills and base stats that erases a large chunk of lost stats by no subjob, making you even stronger than these fights were designed to need.

THEN, SE makes getting Empy+2 for almost any job instantaneous AND FREE. There is not a single person in the game who can't solo at least 1 piece per week of Empy+2 upgrades, and likely more. And this gear for most jobs gives the casual player protective sets that in some cases make the prior "best hybrid gear" appear like tissue paper- look just at the MEVA for jobs on that gear and ask yourself, "if not to make it easier to live in Odyssey:Gaol, why the *** did we need that much?"

The only restrictions in this content are self-imposed. You've always had 20+ jobs to choose from, with unlimited gear storage options, but instead you chose to only play 1 or 2 jobs, and likely from the same family. IF YOU WANT PROGRESS IN CONTENT THAT FORCES JOB VARIETY- *** GET SOME VARIETY IN YOUR LIFE. Don't blame the content because you're playing the wrong game for your sensibilities. FFXI has always been about job variance...its just that after 19 years SE finally found a way to force it on everyone.

Your friends are not your trusts, there to buff you on your most favoritest job, no matter how good you are. Care for the people around you for hours every night JUST A BIT, and level a new job up to make your group's life easier.