A Swing And A Myth: Guide To Liberator

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A Swing and a Myth: Guide to Liberator
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 Ragnarok.Ragingmonkey
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By Ragnarok.Ragingmonkey 2020-09-17 13:27:55
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Asura.Mims said: »
That is a reasonable set Ragingmonkey, I would guess you will probably be struggling a bit to get accuracy over 1200 though. Simply swapping Hetairoi and Dedition for Flamma and Dignitaries would gain you 32 accuracy for the same store TP value, at a cost of 2 TA. Ioskeha +1 over Sailfi +1 would be a similar swap as well for an extra 17 accuracy. Overall 49 more acc at a cost of 4 TA is not a bad tradeoff.
Appreciate the advice. I hadn't really been able to reason about the acc of it just yet as I hadn't equipped/tested. I think those are definitely good swaps though.
 Asura.Mims
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By Asura.Mims 2020-09-17 13:52:38
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That does make sense with that pseudocode Geriond.
The previous model I saw involved someone taking a random on whether AM3 applied or not, and then doing a second random to determine which outcome, your method of applying a single random to the whole segment is cleaner.

As for what SE actually coded it as, the best we can do is speculate. Considering that AM3 was only a chance at double attacking up until level 95 mythic versions, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they just tacked another term on the end. But its SE so we have no idea how elegant or braindead the method they chose is.

As for Stinger Helm, its tough to beat Ratri+1, but I imagine with capped attack and accuracy it should win, but not by a large margin.
For me at least it's not worth the investment.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2020-09-17 13:57:38
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Asura.Geriond said: »
Asura.Mims said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
The 20/40 vs 20/50 split depends on how you assume they coded it.

If the AM3 is coded in one step (IE, it makes a roll and gives you either a TA, a DA, or nothing based on that roll), it's 20/40.

If the AM3 is coded in two steps (IE, it checks for whether it TAs, and then it checks whether it DAs), it's 20 > 50.
Either way gives the same values, it really comes down to how you prefer to conceptualize the process. I personally prefer modeling mythic AM3 as two steps (First TA then DA) because it fits in line with the order of operations for other multiattack sources, and doesn't involve some kind of split outcome that then requires a second step to determine which AM3 outcome is obtained.
Doing it separately needs the extra step, not the other way. If it's determined at the same time, it'd likely just be something similar to:

AM3 = IntRandom[0,99]

If AM3 < 20
-----Triple Attack
Elseif AM3 > 59
-----Double Attack
Else
-----(Move to QA function)
End

Doing it separately would require two if statements, two random rolls, or both. The extra programming load would probably be negigible even by 2011 computer standards (when AM3 gained triple attack), though, so they could have done it either way.
AM3 is checked after QA/TA/DA, not before

There are numerous ways one could code the checks anyways.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2020-09-17 13:59:25
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Asura.Mims said: »
The previous model I saw involved someone taking a random on whether AM3 applied or not, and then doing a second random to determine which outcome, your method of applying a single random to the whole segment is cleaner.
It might have been mine, mine checks if AM3 is both active and the roll succeeds, else it doesn't add additional hits.
Code
    elif AM3 and random.random() < 0.6:
        if random.random() < 1 / 3:
            main_hit += 2
        else:
            main_hit += 1
 Asura.Mims
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By Asura.Mims 2020-09-17 14:10:13
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Yep, thats the one Austar.
The point is, pick a model that makes sense to you that works, that you understand. Most people don't understand how this stuff interacts, hence some really stupid AM3 myths.
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By Taint 2020-09-17 14:29:56
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Asura.Mims said: »

As for Stinger Helm, its tough to beat Ratri+1, but I imagine with capped attack and accuracy it should win, but not by a large margin.
For me at least it's not worth the investment.


Just did a quick excel sheet and Ratri+1 is consistently better. Low and high FTP with and without MA procs. It is very slight however making Stinger+1 a great swap for the times when the +DT may be an issue.

Not worth the gil for Insurgency based on my math.
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By Taint 2020-09-20 05:48:27
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Taint said: »
Asura.Mims said: »

As for Stinger Helm, its tough to beat Ratri+1, but I imagine with capped attack and accuracy it should win, but not by a large margin.
For me at least it's not worth the investment.


Just did a quick excel sheet and Ratri+1 is consistently better. Low and high FTP with and without MA procs. It is very slight however making Stinger+1 a great swap for the times when the +DT may be an issue.

Not worth the gil for Insurgency based on my math.


Just got learned in the high end set thread. Yes Stinger is BiS for insurgency.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Damage_Limit%2B
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 Ragnarok.Ragingmonkey
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By Ragnarok.Ragingmonkey 2021-05-20 23:35:01
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Anyone find any new Lib sets using Sakpata/Nyame? I feel like Sakpata head will beat out stinger for Insurgency, but I don't see the other pieces beating ratri +1 unless you're going for some tankiness in WS set. Nyame I feel is just not going to win against ratri +1, maybe helm better than Sakpata if path B? I don't see a whole lot of use for Sakpata in Lib tp sets with it's lack of STP.
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-05-21 06:58:30
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Nyame A is pretty amazing for Liberator TP, but you'd have to be pretty hardcore into scythe to give up Nyame B for other weapons/jobs.

Biggest issue with Liberator right now is that unless you do get Nyame A, Sakpata doesn't mesh very well with it when you need MEVA.
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By SimonSes 2021-05-21 07:46:02
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Asura.Geriond said: »
Nyame A is pretty amazing for Liberator TP, but you'd have to be pretty hardcore into scythe to give up Nyame B for other weapons/jobs.

Biggest issue with Liberator right now is that unless you do get Nyame A, Sakpata doesn't mesh very well with it when you need MEVA.

With +70sTP Sam roll, sheet only shows 4% advantage of Nyame A over Sakpata (all R20) at attack cap and 6.6% with uncapped attack. To get that advantage at uncapped attack tho, you need to use mix of relic/af/ratri and sulevia, which means you are dropping tons of DT and MEVA in WS set, while SakpataTP/NyameBWS is safe all the time.
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By SimonSes 2021-05-21 14:19:44
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I updated information about Liberator absorb augment on bgwiki, because it was outdated on Liberator page and actually wrong in Absorb page.
 Ragnarok.Ragingmonkey
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By Ragnarok.Ragingmonkey 2021-05-23 01:43:52
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Yeah I'm definitely doing Nyame path B. I was thinking more about maybe using some pieces of Sakpata in Lib set since PDL would apply to all hits
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By SimonSes 2021-05-23 07:42:00
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Ragnarok.Ragingmonkey said: »
Yeah I'm definitely doing Nyame path B. I was thinking more about maybe using some pieces of Sakpata in Lib set since PDL would apply to all hits

Bis attack capped Insurgency set is Sakpata head, body, hands and legs with NyameB feet for low tp threshold. At high tp threshold Ratri +1 head pulls ahead.

For uncapped attack it's Ratri+1 head, legs, hands with af+3 body and nyameB feet. Personally I would use NyameB hands and legs tho, because difference in damage is super marginal, while difference in survivability is huge.
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By Odin.Kingofthenorth 2021-06-26 10:38:36
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Anyone mind sharing updated lib sets? I dont mind giving up some dd % for survivability!
Thanks in advance
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By Shichishito 2021-09-02 11:21:46
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phos, Pya'ekue belt or sailfi belt will bring you to haste cap and give a bit more freedom in other slots in terms of haste. if you don't don't like the +5% double attack from sailfi belt +1 you could leave it unaugmented.
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-09-02 11:51:51
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DA does not actually hurt you with mythic AM3, merely being extremely weakened. Augmenting the belt will still be a slight improvement over leaving it alone.
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 Bismarck.Zubuis
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By Bismarck.Zubuis 2021-09-02 12:05:10
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Isnt double attack a higher attack priority than AM Triple Attack?
 Leviathan.Boposhopo
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By Leviathan.Boposhopo 2021-09-02 12:09:01
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It is
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By Taint 2021-09-02 12:24:05
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Bismarck.Zubuis said: »
Isnt double attack a higher attack priority than AM Triple Attack?


It is but that doesn't make DA worthless it just devalues it.
 Quetzalcoatl.Jakey
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By Quetzalcoatl.Jakey 2021-09-02 12:33:20
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Basically the mythic AM3 averages slightly less than 2 hits per round on its own and is only blocked by DA when DA procs. When DA procs you get 2 hits for that round which is slightly better than averaging slightly less than 2 hits.

This still leaves DA as having very little value and therefor a stat you should try to exchange for store tp which gains value with mythic AM3 or QA and TA which lose some value but much less than DA.
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By Shichishito 2021-09-02 17:04:05
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all this talk about multi attack made me wonder how many more years this game had to run till we see the first octa attack armor and accessories.
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By Kyniker 2021-11-06 23:08:47
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I gotta ask, I already got Calad R15, Apoc R15, Anguta R0, is it worth it to get Liberator? I mean damage wise, is it comparable or better Liberator R15 vs Calad R15? I wanna get a Mythic this December holidays and I was trying to decide between Tizona and Lib
 Shiva.Berzerk
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By Shiva.Berzerk 2021-11-06 23:30:38
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If it's between Tizona and Lib i'd pick Tizona, Liberator can be fun, though.
 Asura.Nuance
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By Asura.Nuance 2021-11-07 00:07:00
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If you want to go through all the trouble of making an AM3 specific STP vomit set for it then yeah its awesome. If I was in your particular shoes though I'd go with Tizona myself. I have both of them R15 and use them heavily, love them both. Liberator does give you a fat Absorb-VIT for the Calad though....
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By SimonSes 2021-11-07 02:35:36
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Liberator can somewhat catch up to Caladbolg if you compere Liberator with +92 STR Absorb to Caladbolg without VIT absorb. Its kinda cheating tho, because even assuming you dont want to swap weapon, so you wont lose AM3, you can still do ~61 Absorb-VIT without Liberator. It's also worth to consider that Insurgency is by far your strongest Fusion WS on DRK. Like people already wrote, Liberator is fun, because it's TP gain is really high and WS animation very long, so you can sometimes even make next WS before Insurgency animation is over (on the other hand optimal usage of Insurgency spam is to wait for 2250TP+, unless target doesn't have enough HP).
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-11-07 06:53:37
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Liberator is quite solid still, but it took a good hit (comparatively) with Odyssey just because Sakpata just has so much better synergy with Caladbolg. Sakpata is good enough defensively that you'll want to sometimes use it with Liberator too, but its pile of DA plays far less well with Liberator than with Caladbolg, and the PDL also helps less when TPing with Liberator because it doesn't have a white damage focused Aftermath like Caladbolg.

Liberator can do almost as much damage as Caladbolg in a heavy STP set (or more if the enemy takes much more darkness SC damage than light SC damage), but as soon as you need to TP in Sakpata for survival its damage falls off pretty hard, while Caladbolg barely feels a dip from a pure DPS set.
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2021-11-07 07:02:50
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I love my Liberator so damn much. But considering how potent Sakpata gear is defensively, its hard to give it up by choice because there is zero synergy between that gearset and the mythic scythe. I still use Liberator frequently, but more often than not I want the meva/DT on Sakpata.

If looking for a project for DRK, I strongly suggest checking out Redemption, the Empyrean Scythe. It's going to have a lot of the features that you like about Caladbolg- the insane TP phase damage of course being #1. It also functions with Sakpata a lot better than Liberator, and allows you to full-time Schere Earring to help with enmity issues because you'll have Entropy at your disposal unlike the Caladbolg. Lastly, Scythe is much more comfortable for long chains if the situation you are in wants them. While Redemption doesn't chain as easily as Liberator in the proper set, it does still work better than trying to dance around a 4-step with greatsword and having to purposely use a few crap WSs to pull it off.
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By mhomho 2021-11-07 07:22:50
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
I strongly suggest checking out Redemption

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By SimonSes 2021-11-07 08:08:41
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Asura.Geriond said: »
Liberator can do almost as much damage as Caladbolg in a heavy STP set (...), but as soon as you need TP in Sakpata for survival its damage falls off pretty hard, while Caladbolg barely feels a dip from a pure DPS set.

What's that DPS store TP build for Liberator that is so much better in DPS than Sakpata? Attack capped and uncapped if possible. Im only getting 6-8% difference in damage compering 5/5 Sakpata and store TP build. Is this a difference you are talking about?

Asura.Geriond said: »
more if the enemy takes much more darkness SC damage than light SC damage
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Lastly, Scythe is much more comfortable for long chains if the situation you are in wants them. While Redemption doesn't chain as easily as Liberator in the proper set
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
and having to purposely use a few crap WSs to pull it off.

Ok this is something that really gets me confused. What are those famous long Darkness skillchain with Liberator, that you keep talking about? Especially not involving "crap WSs"?
Please dont tell me you mean Insurgency > Entropy > Cross Reaper > Quietus. That's barely LV2 > LV2 > L3 with 3 poor closing WSs. Well cross reaper isnt bad at high TP, but it will be hard to build 2000+TP on 3rd WS. Entropy isn't that tragic too at high TP, but that's 2 WSs already when you would need 2000+ TP to make one good and other good enough, so the whole skillchain will be very slow. Quietus as closing WS with Liberator is really weak and like I said that's only regular Darkness at the end with gravitation and distortion in middle (so assuming target is only weak to one of the darkness element, one SC might be really weak). I don't feel like Liberator is any good for self SCing Darkness beside having fast TP gain. I would argue it has much better Light SC with Guillotine > Entropy > Insurgency. At least you have very good closing WS.
I think if you want Darkness on DRK you should go for Anguta and do Entropy > Cross Reaper > Entropy (with 2000TP Entropy at start or adding Insurgency before first Entropy for Umbra) or Apocalypse and do CR/Cata > Cata/CR > Cata or Redemption and make Entropy > Quietus > Quietus or even take Lycurgos with 5kHP and do Upheaval > Steel Cyclone > Upheaval > Steel cyclone (can cut out first Upheaval to make it 3 step too).
Honestly enlight me what's good in Liberator self SCing Darkness, beside fast tp gain.