Controller Vs. Keyboard, LFG...

What was your point exactly. You also "missed" my questions on how keyboard player can use equipsets and controller player can't.

Moogle ambu might be one of the only instances in the game where you benefit from very precise movement and camera control while doing all your other tasks. To a lesser degree, fights with knockback or a lot of fetters are similar, like Lilith.

Iocus you're really baiting me and I take bait so let it be known that you started this...


This is absolutely false in about 15 different ways...

-GS swaps faster than equipsets
-GS macros can be spammed back-to-back
-GS can cast from menu or from chat log with swaps
-There's no timing to hitting GS macros and no consequence for hitting buttons too fast or too slow
-GS faster swaps can do things like cap snapshot and FC in situations where equipsets cannot possibly do that
-GS reduces mental load on the player by taking out complexity (page up/down, etc)
-GS has on-screen UI information showing which toggles you're in
...I could go on for days, but it is VERY MUCH NOT THE SAME THING and there are dozens or more advantages offered by basic GS with absolutely no automation.


Absolutely not true, because of what I said above, plus more. You spend .1 seconds in your WS set, I spend a full second in my WS set. Your idle set swaps back on the INSTANT you finish a spell, mine goes back on up to 1 second after I finish casting a spell (assuming I put optimal timers in my macros).


I don't understand what makes you think this is faster than Ctrl 5 F6?

There ya go, answers in bold. I've already addressed every one of these points in my other posts, but you got your own personalized answer. As I said to the other guy here: if you have a macro page dedicated to only equipsets and it includes every equipset you could possibly need in any circumstance then sure...a controller user could theoretically do the things I'm talking about. I don't think it's very reasonable to assume that though and, as people have pointed out here, there are often surprises in FFXI that require you to adapt and do weird ***you didn't plan for. I'm not, and have never been, referring to common activities for everyday scenarios.

The point is that it's what he was doing that led to his success. Much of the menuing is preemptive. He's just highlighting spells that he intends to cast soon because cursor memory is a thing. If you prep your spell or ability, you just hover over the menu and triple tap.

Aside from a few changes that impacted jobs at lower levels (WHM v Maat Repose cheese for example), the game remains largely the same. Go do all the things we used to have to do with level cap restriction and you'd find that holds up in almost all cases.

I am 100% baiting you because you're worth talking to and i appreciate another point of view. I'll edit respond to this as soon as i put my kid to bed

Ok.. Have fun doing that.

Are you sure its "largely the same"? This was the standard back then.

There’s one other thing controller does that keyboard can’t! We can maneuver with the action bar open without messing it up!

Also if we ever needed to cast an absurdly long spell we could start it, kite a target and then finish the spell as long as we return to the exact casting point easier than Keyboard?

So take that, I guess lol.

Why are you ripping it out of context?

Preparation is key to success. Being prepared is what reduces the chance that you're in the situations where you have to fish for a spell or ability you don't have on macro. If you know where it is in your spell book, you're never at a loss. 2004 or 2024. KB or controller or fight stick or racing wheel.

I feel like it’s largely moot at this point in the game’s lifecycle because the only real outlier is multiboxing and even that can be worked around. The work-around would still require a keyboard or keypad mouse to work but we’d still be 95% Controller for those of us who play it and with zero problems. It’s just the reality of it, for better or for worse we’ve adapted and we’re just fine.

The only scenario where keyboard will be completely dominant is if there was an NM that has a special attack that WIPES YOUR MACROS in that case, absolutely controller players are screwed without a keyboard or really good lua. But thankfully, no such thing exists (don’t go getting any funny ideas, SE)

I have not ever said that using /equipset # is impractical or risky. It is disingenuous to quote my argument and respond with a complaint about someone else's. I've done it myself and know that it is viable(though it was `/lac set Haste` or whatever, not /equipset).

On a different note, CrazyVic reads like he vomited his opinions into chatgpt and asked to have them organized but not corrected. It's really weird.

I didn't mean to imply you said both, I was thought it was funny how I was getting it from both sides e.g. people telling me that one needs to be a competition speed typist to be able to type an equipset before a spell and also those telling me that the pace of the game is 3-4 seconds per action.

I agree that there's plenty of time to type out an equipset most of the time since actions are relatively delayed, which is why I thought it was preposterous that people suggested I was only able to do this because I'm a miraculous typist or something.

I only highlighted your comment because it went directly against the people talking about the high bar of typing required and it had my head spinning to hear the opposite POVs back-to-back.


I agree, I can only half understand anything he writes and usually I start to get dizzy by the end because I can't follow his rambling stream of consciousness. I get how this probably sounds coming from the guy who routinely writes walls of text on this forum, but I like to think there's at least a logic and order to my dissertations and at least an attempt at a point.

This is a you problem not an input device problem.

And no, you don't "need" to use /equipset. If you are not aware, and probably not since menus are anathema to keyboard users apparently, there is a menu for equipsets.

I do play with a controller user that is 100% vanilla. In the off chance they need a set they do not have a macro for, guess what, they go to their menu where they have all the equipsets with a proper name for them - you can rename equipsets in menu but not refer to them by name in console commands - and just equip it from the menu.

But I am sure Male will dream up some convoluted scenario where that "would not work" because opening menu while fighting is bad or something.

The point, Male, which you keep ignoring is if a keyboard user can be fast enough to type /equipset XX - and again I am 100% certain no one here remembers what their equipset numbers are off the top of their head, no not even you - a controller user is equally fast enough to go through the menu to do it.

There is literally nothing relevant to gameplay that can only be done in console commands or via keyboard. Source - the game itself.

Still waiting for an example of anything a keyboard user can do that a controller user can't.

The game was, no exaggeration, about 3-4x slower back then.

If we're really going to rely on anecdotes like 'Avesta used a controller'.. I was on Remora/Leviathan with him. I took sky mobs he died to more than a couple times, and this was after he was well known. I am of the opinion that despite having great recorded performances he was not a particularly consistant player. I bet if he had a keyboard he wouldn't have died to Zipacna.

Edit: Last sentence is tongue-in-cheek, if that wasn't clear.

Think I might have a real one. If you're in an alliance or other non-party situation, and on voice chat, and someone outside your immediate party calls for a cure/-na.

Controller's best case is a prepared <stal> macro and having to hit a bunch of up arrows to get to the correct name. If the person isn't in alliance at all, that means scanning visually for where they're at, tabbing through targets while shifting camera, and hopefully not going past them or having them phased out at the time.

Keyboard just types `//paralyna Tho`. Though, probably not the best argument for MT, since he doesn't like addons.

Now you're wading into a "what targeting <st > should my macros use", which is another very personal choice for controller users.

Personally all my player character macros have <stpc> which filters out NPCs and still lets me target alliance members as well as out of party/alliance characters.

Yes, you need to go down the list to do it. You can again pre-select the target though by hitting up/down that immediately takes you to party/alliance list.

Outside party yes, left/right after <stpc>. No tabbing.

If you use menu to select spell, the subtargeting automatically uses <stpc>.

Does gearswap swap significantly faster than equipsets? Because I "feel" like simple swaps like WS feel faster on equipsets if lag is bad. I used feel there very much on purpose, the real question I have is how significant is that difference in speed as far making a real difference in the performance that is possible? Humans are very good at rationalizing, I'm probably doing it right now, and amazing at blaming their failures and attributing their success to their perceived biases.
yup
Doesn't it feel inadequate that they gave us a system of equipsets and it still doesn't cover this? It seems like the basics and SE hasn't attempted to cover it adequately.
I mean if you are spamming then you can be in the wrong set in midcast but it's certainly easier.
Yeah actually snapshot for sure, RNG is definitely better on GS. I'm curious about FC scenarios because I don't think you're talking about Quick Magic, which most people don't like using even with GS but there are partial work arounds. Is this curing or faster spells like flash or is there more to this than just cast time?
Yes, it is better organized for sure.
I know it's an addon, but equipviewer is wonderful to make sure your GS is doing things correctly and the more I think about it, it's probably even more important for people using equipsets so you'd be aware that you're not in the right sets. I think this should really be basic functionality and I understand that the game didn't start as the equipment swapping dervish it is today, but also it's been this way for a long time.

There is definitely lots there that is easier to deal with than without it, but my arbitrary line is could people achieve the same results without it. Snapshot for sure it's a boost and I assume you'll be right about your response about where FC comes into play. So yeah I can see what you're saying.

You CHOOSE to spend your full second in your WS set by not manually having a macro or bind that has your aftercast(s) in it that you can press directly after your midcast. You already have macros that catch your aftercast if you don't do it properly, but this is what I used to do when I was getting way too serious about playing in order to prevent myself from dying in squishy sets and/or get back into my tp sets faster for hard fights. Not surprisingly it was a terrible amount of extra work for extra performance and when someone noticed what I was doing they pointed out that GS could do that all for me but without actively trying to cripple my hands.

This is again a terrible idea and no one should be doing it but you can get the results out of equipsets that you can get from GS by having engaged and idle sets.

This is where a lot of my comments about avoiding carpal and RSI stem from. There are too many pianists with horribly debilitating small motor injuries for me to pretend that even very smart and talented people won't over extend themselves for things that they enjoy/find fulfilling/are committed to chasing. I still have an oh ***button on some of my front line jobs but I find I use it very infrequently as compared to pressing a separate button every single time I would use a macro. Part of that is simply because malignance, empy, and odyssey sets make the benefits significantly less.


It's faster for me, as a person, to cure single party than I can do on a keyboard. The rest of the thought that wasn't included was that I was comparing it to how fast I can cure an alliance on a keyboard, which is clearly faster. Using the dpad to get to alliance targets is not even a close comparison because it's very bad. But for single party, it's 3 buttons presses max to get to the 4th person in your part and less for everyone else. If you're actively doing other things in a fight then you're waiting on globals to be able to cure and there is plenty of time with my setup to have your cure ready. So maybe in a cure drag race where we are stopped and a cure had to land in a tight window or they die could kb win and controller lose. Otherwise you're preempting your cures when ***is getting bad and there isn't getting around globals unless you have cures and waltzs available. Which is never on ody bosses.

The other thing to consider is that I can't fat finger my cure macro. It's on dedicated button. If you hit the wrong macro, you have to get to escape before getting back to the correct macro while I just have to get to the O button. My thumb is already touching the O button because it rests between X and O and I press the side I want slightly to activate. If your hands are large enough that they can rest on the escape key fulltime then it's a tie. If they aren't, I'm going to win. If you have some other ergonomic custom solution that allows you access to it full time then again, it's a tie. But then you're comparing a custom keyboard, not keyboards(default) to a controller you can buy at walmart.

Whether you use an equipset or properly configured gearswap, the queued equips will typically go out on the next C>S packet. This means that they are identical in speed, in most cases. A couple exceptions:
-Windower has a low cap to outgoing data size. I posted some tests on this in a thread regarding interruptions in precast gear, though I cannot remember the thread. This means that if you hammer your gearswap macro, or you design your file poorly, you may not fit all your swaps in one packet which can cause you to end up in the wrong gear for 400ms(250ms with packetflow). This does not apply to Ashita and LAC.

-The game client will not allow you to swap the same piece twice within 1 second using /equip, and only allows one equipset per second. So, when you are talking about a precast/midcast swap, you are either forced to combine the 2 systems or space accordingly.

Both gearswap and LAC are capable of processing QM gear for precast and still getting the correct midcast gear on in time. Impatiens tends to cause failures due to design flaws, but that is due to the way it forcibly removes ranged items and a properly designed LAC(and I assume gearswap) file can still handle it. I imagine the misconception that it does not work comes from BRD, where instrument being improperly swapped for impatiens will have dramatic and visible consequences.

The 1 second rule applies again here though, if you want a single macro to handle pre/midcast without GS, you must have equipset prior to the action and /equips after, or vice versa. This creates some constraints, unless you hit 3-4 different macros to queue a full set of /equips.

Comes back to the point about 1 second delay built into client. Unless you specifically set up your aftercast to use /equip while your ws gear is /equipset, you do have to wait a full second. GS/LAC are not .1s though, they usually take 2 round trips(~800ms) so it's less dramatic than implied. Packet intervals typically mean that a 1 second wait is really 1.2-1.25 seconds as well.

Gearswap/LAC are absolutely an advantage, and it's fair to consider them cheating. I would still argue that most people use them, and an honest conversation should be factoring that in.

I generally use <stpt> and <stal> for targetting spells. My main reason for this is blinking.

I never have to worry about having dressup loaded and blocking blinking or turning on the config option in game that puts everyone in their undies.

I can't tell you the number of times i've died because a healer complained that he was targetting me and I blinked right before he could cast the spell.

This applies to <stpc> and the ctrl5 + F6 option mentioned above.

That does mean though, that if I need to cure out of alliance I either have to menu cast the spell, or more likely do the //c5 mech think from my keyboard.

The only drawback to <stpt> or <stal> is you don't get any indication if the player is out of range, but that isn't an issue in most cases, and being able to scroll quickly through an entire alliance without specifying someone is quite fast.

That is actually another complaint I have with <stpc>. Sometimes if you're trying to target someone in your party, when you get to a person in your list that is just out of range, or coming into and out of range it won't let you progress down the list and you have to back track and go backwards through your party list to get to someone on the other side.

When you're really in the flow, WHM is very much like this. You have your next spell ready to go and you're waiting until you're able to cast (or waiting until it's needed in those weird lulls where you know something is coming so you're kind of waiting for it to happen).

However, where this falls apart is when unexpected things happen. You've got your Erasega or something ready to go and waiting for a prior cast to finish, but just as you're almost ready a fat AOE hits and suddenly Curaga becomes a higher priority. Now you have to cancel your Erasega <st> and switch gears to Curaga, possibly changing targets in the process. That's something you won't be able to do as fast on a controller as you can on a keyboard.

I had this discussion with Disclai a few times and he always got me to concede every point except this one. Generally as long as things are going according to your mental plan (and with good players who are veterans this is most of the time), performance can be equal between controller & keyboard. When priorities start changing from one second to the next in the midst of a heavy battle, that's when keyboard can offer a huge advantage.

Yay for placebo~!

Thorny, listen up. I ain’t against you, alright? Hell, I even said keyboard’s got the edge over controllers for jobs like BRD, RDM, SCH, and DNC. But all I’m saying is, here in 2024, keyboard players ain’t gonna wipe the floor with controller players like they did back in 2005—not in most games, and sure as hell not in FFXI.

Now, Maletaru and I? We don’t exactly get along, but there’s a respect there. You dangled the bait, and yeah, he bit. You went and pushed him past the line we’ve managed to keep.

Just remember—this is a forum. It’s the ideas that matter, not how pretty your grammar looks. peace

This’ll be the last thing I say about KB vs. Controller—everyone’s free to use whatever device suits them best.

Now, here’s how I see it. The method I used before Spellcast and Gearswap? Still use it today. Sure, "GS" cuts down the number of macros you need to perform decently, but I stick to what works.

All my jobs? 60 macros. If there’s a job out there that needs more than 60 to run optimally, I’m all ears—lay it on me.

Here’s the setup:


10 macros on the "Control" palette (#3)
10 macros on the "Alt" palette (#3)

I load up the CTRL-ALT palettes above (#2) and below (#4) with job-specific macros. Everything’s organized and logical—ain’t putting Victory Smite on CTRL-3 and Howling Fist on ALT-8, that’s for damn sure.

Now, I’m not saying I’m "great," but I hold my own. Last night? Dynamis - Jeuno, Wave 3 clear. Didn’t die once playing MNK/DRG. Finished #2 on the parse with over 10M damage. Got gear sets in all the "styles" and "flavors."

If there’s any job that needs more than 60 macros, all memorized by me like a professional pianist who knows every key by heart, you let me know, alright?

Carmine Falcone over here lol

Except we're still doing the same ***. So we still employ the same strategies we used to and all of the things that were important to understanding the game and improving your play are still relevant.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but the game is still fundamentally the same for most jobs.

Melee's coordinating skillchains and mages magic bursting has not been a strategy for over 15 years.

Capped haste didnt really exist. It was doable in 2007 but it also needed lots of rare S-tier equipment. Multi-atk and StoreTP equipment wasnt in abundance either. Back then, you were not firing off WS's every 5 seconds. Self-skillchaining was impossible except for Sam's under Mekiyo.

FastCast was also not available in abundance back then.

As the game got faster, it became harder for tanks to actually tank because melee were ripping hate off them with ease. A byproduct of enmity caps and their mechanics, among other things, but these were signs of the game getting faster.

See what I mean about personal choice. I agree with the if person is out of range it won't let you skip over them with <stpc>, I don't like that either.

But I don't like not being able to target outside alliance characters more, and I often have to do that on whm and rdm.