Controller Vs. Keyboard, LFG...

I agree with Taeketsu, this game has never been so difficult so as to say that Keyboard is fully necessary. I also disagree with controller “having trouble adjusting on the fly” because I and many others have done it very well for years. Once you get proficient with navigating/organizing the menu, you get your actions done very quickly. If we didn’t disclose being on controller no one would ever know lol. And that was on console.

I think both control styles will succeed or fail equally depending on the player’s preparation, and I don’t think either input method is fool-proof. Both methods likely show the same levels of proficiency when well practiced, especially with Addons.

Keyboard will probably be better but I have strong doubts it’ll be noticeable unless you’re multi-boxing and even then it’s probably a wash.

In keeping to the OP, strictly vanilla? Controller will probably have some troubles with Dancer. About a dozen JAs and multiple WSs. It’s macro-hell for either party but the keyboard’s macro delay is faster and more flexible strictly in Vanilla. I doubt it will matter at the end of the day though.

As a controller player, what system do you have in place that works for well for you? Any specific tips or tricks for keyboard players who are are curious about switching to controller? (Any and all addons/customizations are welcome if you can vouch they ar helpful, of course).

Trackball. It's like Golden Tee, but with spells and weapon skills

I just answered this. Cast any spell you don't have a macro for, using a specific set. Use any ws using a specific set

I just take some time to fully organize the spell list. Takes a couple hours from a fresh install (PC Building hobby problems) but it’s worth it for me. For mages, most important light spells at the top, most important dark spells at the bottom and I set mine up at specific “pages”. Important RDM buffs are 3 pages down from the top, nukes are 2 pages from the bottom. It might sound silly but it’s worked very well for me having it set up like that. I macro high priority spells and actions. Otherwise, just play as normal. Now for DNC I don’t think you can organize your JAs? So you’d probably be macro-bound there. It should still be doable though.

I feel like “Menu Play” works if you take the time to organize it and if you get used to it. I’ve known some players who have no clue how/why I play from menus “just type /ja ‘Haste Samba’” and for me it’s like “just use the menu, it’s right there”. But that’s just my opinion.

Edit: Recommended Addons would be any variety of the Windower supported Addons and Plugins as they offer valuable QOL. Gearswap is a must imo. You can certainly play without it but.. why? Lol Timers, TParty, Blinkmenot, UI Changes if so desired, etc etc

I think this is premised on the controller player not being properly prepared. There are a very finite amount of useful spells and actions in the game, aside from very niche cases like procs. It is completely feasible to set up a crossbar addon to cover everything you will reasonably cast and create toggles for your gearswap(which handles the 'specific set' part).

This is a high bar, and I will readily believe there are many controller players who will never reach it. But, if you're talking about performing in high content, it's not like keyboard players can thrive without a good degree of setup either. A poorly prepared keyboard player will do better than a poorly prepared controller player. However, if you find yourself needing to cast something you do not have macroed in current endgame, I would be forced to question whether you're prepared for that endgame in general.

FFXI is a game of preparation. If you assume the controller player isn't prepared, you're just automatically writing them off as bad. It's not a controller issue, it's a perception issue.

Agreed. If I never disclosed playing like 95% controller, you would never know. I’m certain there are many players like that too because it really isn’t hard at all to do, just possibly tedious depending on your preference or temperament. I do my prep, and my menu is organized so if anything weird pops up, I’ll get to it quickly and keep it moving.

The only content I’ve ever had trouble with is Dyna-D and Mireu and that’s just unusual lag of the butt-fcking variety; that’s far more likely a server issue than anything else.

Just putting this out there, it's key.

Edit: meaning I've never been at the tail end of a failure that was just spectacular and been like... THAT SON OF A *** WAS USING <INSERT INPUT METHOD HERE>!!!

Lol

The question was: let's take add-ons out of it for a moment...


My scenario was one that happens once every 6 months. If you're making macro for Reraise I, II, and III on WHM your macros are a mess IMO. What about Esuna? Bursting Banish 2?

At a certain point, you just run out of macro space and (in the spirit of the question/discussion) if you don't have addons, it's INFINITELY easier for a WHM, SCH, etc. to adjust on the fly when they have a keyboard than when they have a controller. I'd love to hear how a controller player would adjust in this scenario.

How would a controller player cast a song on BRD they weren't planning to cast, or a THF who is suddenly asked to start using Shadowbind for a SC since their SCH is out of stratagems or something.

If you have a controller do you just make a macro for every single WS with every single weapon for every single job? Also a macro for every spell imaginable? How about if you're trying to do 0 damage (with SCH) for immanence? You have a macro for every spell to do 0 damage for every SC you could need to make? What if you're doing only the end of the SC and a SMN is opening it for you?

I guess if you have 200 macros per job maybe you can make it work, but I'm doubtful that anyone could possibly be prepared for every spell and WS they could ever need to do on every job, and it's beside the point.

Hey I know you can play on controller and have macros for stuff but can you play on controller while holding your nose closed with one hand and while standing on tip toes over a flaming barrel.

Been over this dude, just accept some people use controller. You might as well be arguing Vi vs Emacs.

And yes, Vi. Vim is for wannabe posers.

Muscle memory to type out /equipset 24 enter //pianiassimo enter //magesballad3 name (and then start speed typing) /equipset 24 (in 1.5 seconds before the song finishes otherwise it gets casted in FC gear): good

Muscle memory to run those commands through GUI on a controller: bad

Short answer, yes.

Long answer, I do a lot of research about what I might be asked to do on any job that I'm playing, and I play a lot of them.

if there is a non-negligible chance that I'll be asked to use x ability/weaponskill/spell for a job in the situation I'm playing in, I have a macro for it.

If I'm on sch and might need 0 damage immanence chains, I have a macro book/set for that.

I might be surprised once, but I'm never surprised twice.

I can always switch over to keyboard if I need to type a command in, which I do do occasionally.

equipsets are their own thing, and I'd rather not go into vanilla vs. gearswap stuff.

Edit: an argument about running out of macro space was valid.... before they expanded to 40 books. Now it's moot at best.

Even on a job that is very very heavy on things to do like RDM I only use maybe 6 sets out of the 10 available in my macro book for it.

Maybe something like SMN or BST where you would have a ?set? for each pet... but even then I'm probably stretching.

What's the controller button for /equipset 24?

Spoiler: you literally cannot equip an equipset without a keyboard or a macro.

This is my point. It's not about an unprepared controller vs a prepared KB. The unprepared KB can make ***up on the fly, the unprepared controller is up ***'s creek unless they made a custom macro for every spell, WS, and JA in every possible scenario. The KB guy just goes "yeah ok, /equipset 50, Ctrl+W, pick the WS, /equipset 41". Then if they need to do it a hundred times they can either make a macro (with their keyboard) or they can space up enter. space up up enter.

CTRL+1 macro "SongFC": /equipset 24
rip through GUI to do pianissimo and ballad
CTRL+2 macro "SongBuff" /equipset 25

I wrote equipset 24 twice, but my intent was clear


But for most FFXI players in 2024, theres gearswap.

If your going to use a controller
You need to put all relevant job abilities, spells, and what not
In the macro book or you might as well just use the keyboard

Who said you have to macro the entire command?

I have 35 equipsets for BRD. So...I should have 35 macros, one each to equip each of them, on my bar, or...what's the proposed idea here?

I get that you're suggesting that you ONLY have macros for FC and buff, but then once again...this only works if the thing you need to do is specifically involving the equipset(s) you have macro'd.

And AGAIN AGAIN...this is only considering a player who is perfectly prepared for every possible spell and every possible WS they could ever need to use for any reason, in any set, under any circumstance.

I guess if you're absolutely perfect and nothing strange ever happens and you never need to adjust any plan...yup it's fine.

That's not the world I live in, but maybe it is for you.

Maletaru... I'm curious about how you view keyboard users.

What percentage of keyboard users do you assume are proficient enough typists that they could... on the fly... type an equipset command, a spell/ability command and another equipset command successfully in the space of two seconds in a stress'd environment because they had to adapt to an unprepared for situation?

I feel like you're position on what frankly seems to be your view of minimum capability of your standard keyboard user is wildly out of touch.

I'd guess it's you, because you clearly can do it, and that 1 player that is a courtroom stenographer because they have to be able to type 1000 words a minute and they use a special keyboard for it.

I'd be willing to bet you have plenty of overlap.

ie:
/equipset 1 is for Lullaby, which is a combination of macc, song duration, Moonbow Whistle +1 and Brioso Cuffs +3
/equipset 2 is for Elegy, which is a combination of macc, duration, and Moonbow Whistle +1
/equipset 3 is for Threnody, which is a combination of macc, Moonbow Whistle +1 and Mousai Manteel +1 (debatable as Manteel+1 gives duration +20% but Hong+3 gives a lot more macc)
/equipset 4 is the bard FC stuff

Now, most bards would probably have Lullaby directly macroed, its a pretty common go-to song for crowd control. They'd probably have Elegy macroed too, but likely only Carnage. Strip out the song specific equipment from your equipsets.

CTRL+0 "BardFC: /equipset 4
CTRL+1 "Foe1": /ma "foe lullaby" <t>;/equipset 1;/equip hands "Brioso Cuffs +3"
CTRL+2 "Foe2": /ma "foe lullaby II" <t>;/equipset 1;/equip hands "Brioso Cuffs +3"
CTRL+3/4 are Horde 1/2
CTRL+5 "CElegy": /ma "Carnage Elegy" <t>;/equipset 1
CTRL+6 "BElegy" same
CTRL+7 "Thren": /ma "XXX Threnody II" <t>;/equipset 1;/equip body "Mousai Manteel +1"

CTRL+7 can be edited on the fly or before entry. I dont know any content that requires you to alter your threnody mid-fight.

CTRL+0 then CTRL+1-7 as necessary

I've cut four equipsets down to two.

DOME
Dept of Macro Efficiency

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY

Controller users have a keyboard handy. How do you think controller players input data into their macros? Voice chat? Neurolink?

Its almost as if some people are unfamiliar with the gamer posture:


No ones doing V20+ fights using the left posture. Theyre leaned in, locked in.

big shrimpin

Part of the "problem" that caused BRD to be bloated with equipsets is similar to my problem with RDM: I have two full sets, one with weapon swaps and one without. For BRD I don't really use the weapon swap ones anymore, it was for when I used to do BRD/WHM more often which I rarely if ever do anymore (though I still use those macros for when I BRD/BLM for peculiar foes).

I do have a separate set for Lullaby and Threnody, partially because of my macros but also, Threnody specifically, so I can cast threnodies easily without using a macro, when necessary. /equipset 30 -> cast from menu. It's much easier IMO than having an equipset for macc and then modifying the macros, because then you need to change the macro every fight. Also if you want to do Threnody 1 because 2 resisted, you can just fire away.

I don't prefer /equipset macros standalone because then you turn every spell into 2-3 macro presses as opposed to 1 macro press, it's a lot slower and also relies on you to remember to swap back sets every time. Now I see why some people got RSI from playing FFXI, hitting 3 macros per spell for 4 hours straight.

Here are my melee equipsets:
HMarch FC
Aeolian
Evis
Foe Lullaby
Horde Lullaby 1
General FC
Macc (Elegy, Requiem, Nocturne, Finale)
Midcast buff
Midcast Hmarch
Threnody
Horde Lullaby 2
Nitro (just equips those 2 pieces)
TP DW
Mordant
Savage
Rudra/Ruthless
TP SW

TBH I should have a couple extra for specific fights, but I generally just modify my SW to include pieces if I need for Ngai, Xevi, etc.

I'm sure it's possible to trim some of this down, like the lullaby example, but not a whole lot...

For BRD/WHM I have pretty much everything above, except idle in place of TP, a curing set, and then I've got Abs-TP and volte harness sets there too.

E: I don't think mousai for threnody is debatable, since it adds potency, not just duration

I'm glad it works for you, but just reading that gives me a headache.

Everyone else has this too, and worse, except they have it in a 6000 line .lua file instead of 20 lines of a forum post. I'm sure if someone's raw brd lua file were posted it would give you a migraine from hell

I can actually answer Maletaru because I’ve had to do it a few times: Actions are all handled through the menu. Literally everything through menu. All spells, WSs JAs, everything through menus. Gearswaps and critical actions are macro’d.

Assuming Vanilla with moderate prep, I’ll likely have a generalized equipset for the general task I’m doing because most things can be generally geared and specialized equipment is largely unnecessary. So a basic MND-Enfeebs set for example, or healing or WS, etc.

In action, you hit the equip macro before you’re about to do things, do the things and equip back to idle/normal. Easy process. I’ve been multi-stepping on my Melee jobs manually for a long time. You menu WS, open menu again immediately because TP go fast and just scroll up to the next WS, rinse and repeat.

If there’s a more specific task, I’ll have it macro’d. And yes you can make a full macro with no keyboard at all, just takes longer.

It’s a very simple game to play by just using the menus and preparing headsets appropriately.

Edit:
That said, Gearswap has made everything much more streamlined allowing amazing customization for everyone. The game is much more “Point and Click” now than ever

My brd lua is 258 lines long :) I meant the number of key presses more than the macro's contents.

Ok great so once again the answer to how do you do something you're not prepared for is "I just prepare for everything". Thanks for your response.

This is a very good discussion we're having here.

You've come up with a system that involved memorizing 50+++ equipsets (I doubt you play one job) that involves typing a minimum of three commands for any action. But you're somehow in utter disbelief at the idea that controller players can come up with an efficient system that works for them.

Also I said that Hong+3 offers a lot more macc (Mousai+1 = CHR+42 Macc+52 vs Hong+3 CHR+48 Macc+64 Sing+24 Wind+24). Wiki says theres no macc offered from Threnody+. That was the debatable part.

It's not that I don't believe people can play their normal job or handle normal tasks. I have repeatedly mentioned weird, ad hoc situations you weren't expecting, not normal everyday occurrences.