Phoenix.Iocus said: »
Anyone does DNC for Aminon on a controller?
Not me, but yes. They do really well.
Controller Vs. Keyboard, LFG...
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Controller Vs. Keyboard, LFG...
Not me, but yes. They do really well. When i came back to the game many moons ago
Was using just the keyboard for a few years Managed to get pretty good at it But i've always been a chicken pecker when it comes to typing So i value a controller but use them together now The first couple years there were so many nail biting Heart attack inducing moments using just the keyboard Specially since groups always wanted me on WHM Bahamut.Boposhopo said: » "Some players can't adapt on the fly" There I fixed it. Has nothing to do with keyboard or controller, some people just suck. I've seen good and bad players using both. Congrats on repeating exactly what I said though. I play with a controller.
For DNC burst opener for stuff like Aminon I made 5 macros that handle everything for the initial burst. I've had a couple PMs about my Macros here are the 5 that start the opener. I've only played DNC in sortie a couple times but they work great on Aminon.
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Those that are saying that a controller is superior to a keyboard must have also enjoyed watching the Tyson fight.
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It depends on the game. If it was designed to be played with a "gamepad," then Controller > KB.
Take something like "Gears of War," "Dark Souls," or "Monster Hunter World." Yeah, you can play ‘em with KB & Mouse, and sure, you can be good with a keyboard, but those games weren’t made for that. KB & Mouse? I see that more for games like WoW, FFXIV, FPS, and those damn MOBAs. Look, these days, in games with that legal Aim-Bot, "Aim-Assist," like Apex Legends, Call of Duty, Fortnite, or Halo Infinite, players using controllers are out there wrecking those keyboard players. And the companies keep "nerfing" and "nerfing" that aim-assist, but can’t find the balance. As for FFXI, in the 19 years I’ve been playing, I’ve never seen one KB/Mouse player in an end-game event. I’ve seen ‘em in FFXI Classic, FFXI Horizon, and when they’re leveling, but those folks? They’re usually bad, no offense. It’s not their fault, though—the game just wasn’t made to be played like that. It’s a damn PS2 game at heart, with a DualShock 2 in mind, and that ain’t easy to work with. Now, maybe there’s some damn monster out there who uses KB & Mouse and could shut me up, but in all my years? Never seen one of ‘em. Carbuncle.Maletaru said: » IDK about Crossbar or whatever other addons are available for controller players but if you're trying to hit the equivalent of Ctrl+6 I think you Hold L2 (or R2 or whatever) then press Left, Left, Left, Left, Left, X. For a KB you hold Ctrl then press 6. I get that for some jobs (melee) you can make this a bit more succinct because you're mostly only pressing one button, but it feels like hitting macros is a CHORE on controller. See also: all other menus. Ctrl + J. Ctrl + M. Ctrl + W. What are the 2-button shortcuts for these on controller? Typing commands into the game, like anything you couldn't fit on your macro bar, changing lockstyles, changing macro books (when changing jobs), etc. Everyone says "this game was designed for controller" because it came out on a PS2 first but...typing a macro on a virtual keyboard sucks ***. Sure, maybe they had a controller as the baseline, but they made major sacrifices to make it work. When doing something action-intense like WHM, SCH, DNC, etc. I can't imagine trying to do it with a controller. There is a short delay for JA (Accession, Box Step, Reverse Flourish, etc.) but it is pretty damn short. You'd have to arrange all your "most important" macros close to each other and even then, you'd still end up with like...16 buttons to press instead of 8. I always felt on-par using a controller compared to other keyboard users, but it required some good macros setups using page swapping and what not. XIVCrossbar makes controller player really really solid. XIVCrossbar Not sure if you're trolling but I have have never met a controller player that plays as well as someone with keyboard. No one uses the mouse in FFXI.
I'm not saying that all people that play with controllers are bad, but it's generally quite obvious when someone is using a controller. Controller works better for me for XI. Theoretically, keyboard has a typically faster response in situations where multiple different actions are needed quickly. I have tried a few times to force myself to use keyboard but never had much luck. I get tangled, my fingers shift accidentally or I simply hit the wrong key because my memory and reaction time aren't the best and certainly not as good as it used to be. Luckily, we aren't playing something that requires a high level of inputs hit in a short amount of time.
And so while I'm aware I'm probably not as effective as a good keyboard player, I'm happy with my analog stick movement and slightly less arthritis-inducing playstyle. I like to be able to lean back in my chair and relax while farming or running around. I augment my controller use by having DS4Windows mapped binds for a few things and some fast macros on my ancient g15 keyboard. That said, in high lag situations, I have noticed that I often see some directional button press losses. This can mean that when I meant to move over 2 macro spots, it only moves one and thus I slam the wrong macro and *** things up. I dunno what to tell you, I've met plenty of controller players who run endgame without issue. You could mistake those players not playing with being keyboard users.
It's very simple to setup your macro pages to work as effectively. Alright, here’s the deal. The problem with FFXI is the damn delays—job abilities, weapon skills, engage/disengage, you name it. The net code is outdated, designed for connections from 20 years ago, so it doesn’t let you use your APMs the way you should on a keyboard.
What it really needs is a big fix—cut those delays down to 1 second and update the net code to handle up to 10,000 kbps S/R. Until then, all those APMs in your fingers are pretty much wasted. And the fast controller players? Same deal. How many times have you hammered the engage button, just waiting for it to work? You hit it, then wait—finally, after a couple seconds, you’re good to go. There are ways to measure player performance in FFXI, sure. But it’s a sensitive topic, so I’m not gonna go down that road right now. Sylvebits said: » I've met plenty of controller players who run endgame without issue I've met plenty of people who drive absolute shitboxes of cars with no issues, but that doesn't make it ***' better.
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I think there's an argument to be made that the advantage (which is debatable but I don't think it really is) of efficiency gained by KB isn't realizable because of FFXI delays (JA, Spell, etc.). I personally think the game is, in some scenarios, still fast-paced enough that you need to be able to quickly hit macros. There's very little delay between using JAs, in my experience, but that's not important.
What are the advantages of controller, other than sitting on a couch? The only thing I've heard people say is camera movement. How often do you need to move the camera (but not your character) vs how often do you need to hit a macro? I don't think there's a very strong argument to be made that controller is better, unless you factor in comfort of reaching buttons or how you can play while lying down, or whatever. I basically never need to adjust my camera without adjusting my character's position. Maybe it's because I've always played with KB, but I just don't feel the need to do this, almost ever. If I do, I can also do this...unlock (if disengaged), hit switch target, use arrow heads. If not engaged, you can freely move the camera any way you want without hindrance.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: » I think there's an argument to be made that the advantage (which is debatable but I don't think it really is) of efficiency gained by KB isn't realizable because of FFXI delays (JA, Spell, etc.). I personally think the game is, in some scenarios, still fast-paced enough that you need to be able to quickly hit macros. There's very little delay between using JAs, in my experience, but that's not important. What are the advantages of controller, other than sitting on a couch? The only thing I've heard people say is camera movement. How often do you need to move the camera (but not your character) vs how often do you need to hit a macro? I don't think there's a very strong argument to be made that controller is better, unless you factor in comfort of reaching buttons or how you can play while lying down, or whatever. I basically never need to adjust my camera without adjusting my character's position. Maybe it's because I've always played with KB, but I just don't feel the need to do this, almost ever. Its preference. I move my camera ALL the time playing FFXI with controller. In fact, I can't imagine not doing so.
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I also move my camera constantly, as well as my actual character(I've been bitched at a lot by thfs over the years). Both movement and camera movement are smoother and you have more directionality with controller. Not that WASD isn't enough, it's just again, smoother.
But my number one reason is comfort. It hurts my wrists and fingers to spam macros on keyboard after a while.
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Taeketsu said: » Its preference. /thread I mean, if the strongest case for controller is "it's preference" then I guess there's no discussion to be had. KB vs Controller is just preference. I'm sure people wiggle their characters and cameras all the time, but does it actually help in some way? If we're going to claim that FFXI is so slow that hitting macros faster doesn't matter, I think it's a small leap to say that FFXI gameplay is so far disconnected from your camera that having better control over the camera doesn't matter.
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How did that controller work out for that Titan sub?
Asura.Saevel said: » The thing with controllers is that everything needs preprogrammed ahead of time. So far every controller player I've known has struggled to do on-the-fly actions mid battle. This mirrors my experience too. You ask a controller player to use a command or ability they don't already have reachable via controller buttons ... and they struggle. Yeah the only thing contoller movement is going to help with is mitigating butt pulling mobs you shouldn't. And honestly if you're doing it all the time on keyboard, I'm sure you'd still be doing it with a controller.
The couch and laying down is not so much. I just don't want to be intentionally putting myself on the market for carpal tunnel if I can help it. I destroyed my wrist in a skiing accident as a child and I'd like to avoid as many consequences from that as humanly possible. I prioritize my comfort because so long as we're clearing content I really don't care how people play. It's PvE not PvP. But maybe some sweet PVP enthusiasts can tell us about the competitive edge they get in the totally relevant PVP content to settle this for us to we can know the technically correct answer. Which is of course the best kind of answer. Felgarr said: » Asura.Saevel said: » The thing with controllers is that everything needs preprogrammed ahead of time. So far every controller player I've known has struggled to do on-the-fly actions mid battle. This mirrors my experience too. You ask a controller player to use a command or ability they don't already have reachable via controller buttons ... and they struggle. So a person who is not well organized and doesn't think ahead. Who is in group that didn't properly go over the strategy of a fight. I have my left hand on controller and right on the keyboard, lol.
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What about the players that have those hybrid builds
The keyboard and controller combo Where do they rank? The issue is things like shortcuts. You can't type //b6 to cast blizzard 6 with a controller. Switching macro pages and selecting macros with a controller is always going to be slower. You can set up for the 99% but in the office chance you don't have whatever you need on a macro or the macro is another page, you've instantly lost to the speed of a keyboard
Nobody who reads this thread would ever believe that the theme of this game is breaking through limitations...
Genoxd said: » The issue is things like shortcuts. You can't type //b6 to cast blizzard 6 with a controller. Why would a KB player be using shortcuts for nukes? Wouldn't you just use binds for tiers and toggle elements with another bind? A controller player should have their top 2 tiers of nukes in macros already. Double burst is a thing and everyone should be prepared for that, regardless of which peripheral you use. Seun said: » Why would a KB player be using shortcuts for nukes? Wouldn't you just use binds for tiers and toggle elements with another bind? I'm imagining a scenario where someone is opening a SC for you to burst (Vagary objectives, Sortie objectives, etc.) and it's either routinely changing or they're not clearly communicating what they're going to do in advance. You think they're going to do Darkness, but they do Distortion instead. Now instead of doing the Stone you were planning to do, you need to suddenly do Blizzard instead. Sure, you could toggle your element 5 times, or you could type /b6 and be done with it. Seun said: » A controller player should have their top 2 tiers of nukes in macros already. Double burst is a thing and everyone should be prepared for that, regardless of which peripheral you use. Double bursting, sure, but 2 nukes are not enough when consistent SC are going off (e.g. Ongo). Your 2 nukes will be on cooldown and you need to resort to others. For my BLM macros I have Ja, 3, 4, 5, 6, AM2, and I used to have -ga 3 but I ran out of macro space/reprioritized. This might be slight overkill but it allows you to nuke appropriately. Also: if a mob is almost dead, it makes more sense to pick a T3 than to overkill it with a T5. Cheaters vs controller, Corrected.
I mean, OP said:
Felgarr said: » When comparing, let's assume the same level of modifications in both controller and keyboard situation, i.e. LUAs, macros, controller programs, etc. Please state those modifications are. So I mean, compare cheaters vs cheaters. KB is better at cheating. From the vanilla perspective though, I still use loads of keyboard commands that (i think) controller can't use. You either have to put down your controller to go to the keyboard for those things, or make macros for them (if possible), or use more button presses.
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Idk about others, but my controller is right in front of keyboard and can reach both. Sometimes one hand is on controller, one hand on keyboard.
But it seems this is devolving into another third party software debate so good luck with that. Oh and there's the guy saying if you use controller your room will suddenly implode or something.
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CrAZYVIC said: » It depends on the game. If it was designed to be played with a "gamepad," then Controller > KB. Take something like "Gears of War," "Dark Souls," or "Monster Hunter World." Yeah, you can play ‘em with KB & Mouse, and sure, you can be good with a keyboard, but those games weren’t made for that. KB & Mouse? I see that more for games like WoW, FFXIV, FPS, and those damn MOBAs. Now, maybe there’s some damn monster out there who uses KB & Mouse and could shut me up, but in all my years? Never seen one of ‘em. JK don't witch hunt me. Carbuncle.Maletaru said: » Sure, you could toggle your element 5 times, or you could type /b6 and be done with it. If I were going to do it on KB, I would be the guy pressing the same key and then the bind right next to it. My follow up burst would be the bind right next to that. The other hand would be free to crack beer and hold turkey leg. //b6 isn't a shortcut. //bvi is a shortcut. You're already a tryhard for playing with both hands. What's with the finger gymnastics? S - Controller A - Fight stick B - Racing wheel B- - Keyboard This thread should evolve into debate about which KB configuration still isn't as good as controller. Or you can make one macro that rotates between all tiers of 6->5->4->3 and casts which ever is not on cool down.
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