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High End Sets Advice/Suggestions/Ideas/LUA
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 974
By Bahamut.Justthetip 2022-08-02 09:07:47
Depends how long is the fight and what buffs you have. With good samurai roll, /DRG is usually few% DPS ahead during Last Resort up. /Sam only wins by a lot, when LR is down. So if the fight is less than 3 mins 15 sec or you can refresh cool down on LR with random deal or other things, then /DRG is very good option. I'm gonna 100% disagree with this remember you don't not have max buff almost ever in any of these fights most of the people run with sheets. So at no point are you getting the full setup like the sheet. If you use the same gear then you are by no means capped so the extra ws% isn't making it up nor is a fight only lasting 3mins 15 seconds. With a good sam roll is why we're even able to wear the gear we have now so a good sam rolls is semi already on it. I'm done the /drg my dps with the same gear and buffs as normal wasn't even close to what I put up with as /sam. I've yet to see a drk post better with /drg than /sam. Also again I'd rather just go war/drg at that point than to force nerf myself because I can't slow a little on my ws spam.
 Bahamut.Braams
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
By Bahamut.Braams 2022-08-02 09:29:32
I would actually make the argument that letting rip a 50K+ weaponskill within the first 30 seconds of a fight is going to be heavily detrimental to your survival. Unless of course you're sitting on 6K+ HP where you might have a chance for survival.
At which point, you might as well be swinging an Empyrean or an Apocalypse over a Mythic.
I honestly can't in good faith ever advocate for /DRG. The 50 seconds in which Last Resort is down in a longer fight or in events in general is going to be a significant dip DPS-wise.
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By SimonSes 2022-08-02 09:32:20
The difference between /Sam and /DRG is very straightforward tho with LR up. It's 20 storeTP versus 10% WS bonus. Not sure what special sheet scenario you mean here.
Bahamut.Justthetip said: »So at no point are you getting the full setup like the sheet. If you use the same gear then you are by no means capped so the extra ws% isn't making it up
I have no idea what are you talking about here. What cap? Haste cap? With LR up, hasso is not doing anything beside adding 7str, 10acc and adding tons of casting/recast time. You shouldn't even use hasso with LR up unless you know for sure you won't be casting anything or you have accuracy issues.
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1360
By Odin.Creaucent 2022-08-02 09:44:39
I would actually make the argument that letting rip a 50K+ weaponskill within the first 30 seconds of a fight is going to be heavily detrimental to your survival. Unless of course you're sitting on 6K+ HP where you might have a chance for survival.
At which point, you might as well be swinging an Empyrean or an Apocalypse over a Mythic.
I honestly can't in good faith ever advocate for /DRG. The 50 seconds in which Last Resort is down in a longer fight or in events in general is going to be a significant dip DPS-wise.
You might want to go back and read again. Simon was saying that /drg is good if the fight lasts ~3mins or you have a way of getting LR back like random deal or super revit. /sam then pulls way ahead if you cant and you need hasso for when LR is down.
Also Hybrid or full defense sets are there for a reason you can use them and live till the tank takes hate back. Lets not forgot that /drg with mlvls gets High Jump and Super Jump which are extremely effective tools to make sure you ARENT TANKING. 99k weaponskill in the first 10secs of a fight? No *** problem Super jump!
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
By Sylph.Brahmsz 2022-08-02 09:47:36
Actually, was agreeing with Tip.. we're all more or less saying the same thing to be honest.
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Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 974
By Bahamut.Justthetip 2022-08-02 10:49:32
I would actually make the argument that letting rip a 50K+ weaponskill within the first 30 seconds of a fight is going to be heavily detrimental to your survival. Unless of course you're sitting on 6K+ HP where you might have a chance for survival.
At which point, you might as well be swinging an Empyrean or an Apocalypse over a Mythic.
I honestly can't in good faith ever advocate for /DRG. The 50 seconds in which Last Resort is down in a longer fight or in events in general is going to be a significant dip DPS-wise.
You might want to go back and read again. Simon was saying that /drg is good if the fight lasts ~3mins or you have a way of getting LR back like random deal or super revit. /sam then pulls way ahead if you cant and you need hasso for when LR is down.
Also Hybrid or full defense sets are there for a reason you can use them and live till the tank takes hate back. Lets not forgot that /drg with mlvls gets High Jump and Super Jump which are extremely effective tools to make sure you ARENT TANKING. 99k weaponskill in the first 10secs of a fight? No *** problem Super jump! Just manage hate better that's its like it's pretty simple to not go ape ***15 seconds into a fight. The difference between /Sam and /DRG is very straightforward tho with LR up. It's 20 storeTP versus 10% WS bonus. Not sure what special sheet scenario you mean here.
Bahamut.Justthetip said: »So at no point are you getting the full setup like the sheet. If you use the same gear then you are by no means capped so the extra ws% isn't making it up
I have no idea what are you talking about here. What cap? Haste cap? With LR up, hasso is not doing anything beside adding 7str, 10acc and adding tons of casting/recast time. You shouldn't even use hasso with LR up unless you know for sure you won't be casting anything or you have accuracy issues. I'm talking the same setup where you somehow see /drg pulling ahead of sub Sam. Those numbers don't add up with the sets listed in general wsd for drk isn't pushing up more than me having the ability to stay fully capped when lr is down or when hasso isn't needed. Also idk what drk you playing but drk in most of these sets have some form of acc issue. Adding casting time and recast time isn't a big deal at all 99% of the time you aren't casting spells over and over again. So that's not even a factor. I've yet to see a single /drg drk come even close to beating out numbers of a /Sam. I'm not trying to say it can't happen but show me im wrong. No fight last 3 mins with a full buffed out party and no ambu doesn't count. 10wsd isn't making up maintaining full time uptime on on melee haste. Also relaying on high Jump and Super Jump as a drk that pulled hate that easy your gonna die anyway. Those aren't 2 decond cooldowns. Maintain the job and play smart.
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3753
By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2022-08-02 11:11:42
All honesty- I do hate /DRG as well, and really only pull it out when absolutely necessary. But my experience is the same as Simon's- if LR can be up either the whole fight or a vast majority of it, the dps variance isn't as big.
I still prefer the "feel" of /SAM, and I think that is what people cite when they say its so much better DPS wise than other subjobs- it just feels better. Not to say that we're all at the mercy of our feelings (I mean, this is a DRK forum, but that's a bit too /wrist'y for me), but it might fit.
By SimonSes 2022-08-02 11:28:36
I think this discussion is pointless. I'm saying /DRG is good in scenario, where you can full time LR and you tell me /Sam is better because you can't maintain LR full time...
I could start listing many scenarios where you can full time LR, but I kinda feel it would only push this conversation into darker corner.
Edit: answering @Justthetip ofc
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Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 974
By Bahamut.Justthetip 2022-08-02 12:26:06
I think this discussion is pointless. I'm saying /DRG is good in scenario, where you can full time LR and you tell me /Sam is better because you can't maintain LR full time...
I could start listing many scenarios where you can full time LR, but I kinda feel it would only push this conversation into darker corner.
Edit: answering @Justthetip ofc I agree it is kinda pointless again we play drk super different which is what I always forget tbh. I've never once been in a scenario in this game where I thought /drg would be better. I only bring this up because again your saying something that simply isn't the case in real scenarios.
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3753
By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2022-08-02 12:38:25
Just gotta say that damn near anyone would take either of y'all on DRK, regardless of styles you espouse^^
I've come to believe that the more fervent the conversation in a forum, the better position that job currently is in. And DRK is really in a great spot these days.
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Bahamut.Braams
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
By Bahamut.Braams 2022-08-02 13:07:56
I really wish there were attack dummies similar to the ones in XIV where you could go all out on and get the results in real time and settle minutiae instead of ancillary & arbitrary numbers in a sheet or napkin math. /shrug
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Bahamut.Negan
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2193
By Bahamut.Negan 2022-08-02 13:10:59
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »Just gotta say that damn near anyone would take either of y'all on DRK, regardless of styles you espouse^^ 100%
Baniak and JTT are incredible players
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By SimonSes 2022-08-02 13:23:51
I really wish there were attack dummies similar to the ones in XIV where you could go all out on and get the results in real time and settle minutiae instead of ancillary & arbitrary numbers in a sheet or napkin math. /shrug
I wish there would be something like that, but i doubt that would solve anything. Most builds has lots of randomness like at least 95% hit rate and multi attack %. This means that you would need to hit this dummies for like few hours to produce average DPS with margin of error low enough to compare builds that are 1-2% from ech other. Good luck redoing that several hours test every time you would change one piece of gear and want to check if it's maybe 0.5% ahead :)
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Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
By Sylph.Brahmsz 2022-08-02 13:33:40
If you need that sort of data/testing to come to a conclusion, all the more power to you. I'm okay with reasonable margins of error and can come to my own conclusions at least. :/
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Ramuh.Austar
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2022-08-02 13:35:10
I really wish there were attack dummies similar to the ones in XIV where you could go all out on and get the results in real time and settle minutiae instead of ancillary & arbitrary numbers in a sheet or napkin math. /shrug make a simulation then, can setup the logic to spam, SC, multi-step, toggle JAs, Aftermath, etc.
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 974
By Bahamut.Justthetip 2022-08-02 13:43:04
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »Just gotta say that damn near anyone would take either of y'all on DRK, regardless of styles you espouse^^ 100%
Baniak and JTT are incredible players Yea im not calling into question the player I'm just saying drg is offering wsd and jumps. Sam offers you more than just hasso so I find it hard to be using the same sets you put out better numbers. Your stp is off you turn the 6 it to a 7 or 8 hit. Scythe is even worse when making that sub change. Gear changes need to happen otherwise you not gonna have to worry about the jumps your dps gonna be dropped off anyway so the benefit is semi lost
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 974
By Bahamut.Justthetip 2022-08-02 13:54:47
I really wish there were attack dummies similar to the ones in XIV where you could go all out on and get the results in real time and settle minutiae instead of ancillary & arbitrary numbers in a sheet or napkin math. /shrug
I wish there would be something like that, but i doubt that would solve anything. Most builds has lots of randomness like at least 95% hit rate and multi attack %. This means that you would need to hit this dummies for like few hours to produce average DPS with margin of error low enough to compare builds that are 1-2% from ech other. Good luck redoing that several hours test every time you would change one piece of gear and want to check if it's maybe 0.5% ahead :) Simon is right on this while I agree with braams I wish we could have it the problem is just like Simon explained it would take soem long with the way this game is setup that it's not even super worth it.
By SimonSes 2022-08-02 14:22:03
Bahamut.Justthetip said: »Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »Just gotta say that damn near anyone would take either of y'all on DRK, regardless of styles you espouse^^ 100%
Baniak and JTT are incredible players Yea im not calling into question the player I'm just saying drg is offering wsd and jumps. Sam offers you more than just hasso so I find it hard to be using the same sets you put out better numbers. Your stp is off you turn the 6 it to a 7 or 8 hit. Scythe is even worse when making that sub change. Gear changes need to happen otherwise you not gonna have to worry about the jumps your dps gonna be dropped off anyway so the benefit is semi lost
If your xhit is lower, then your white damage in the cycle is higher by several thousands and you end up at higher TP (because instead of lets say getting 1010TP in 5 hits, you get 1150TP in 6hits), so your WS is even stronger than 10%. It's not as simple as lower xhit = higher dps.
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Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 974
By Bahamut.Justthetip 2022-08-02 14:49:56
Bahamut.Justthetip said: »Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »Just gotta say that damn near anyone would take either of y'all on DRK, regardless of styles you espouse^^ 100%
Baniak and JTT are incredible players Yea im not calling into question the player I'm just saying drg is offering wsd and jumps. Sam offers you more than just hasso so I find it hard to be using the same sets you put out better numbers. Your stp is off you turn the 6 it to a 7 or 8 hit. Scythe is even worse when making that sub change. Gear changes need to happen otherwise you not gonna have to worry about the jumps your dps gonna be dropped off anyway so the benefit is semi lost
If your xhit is lower, then your white damage in the cycle is higher by several thousands and you end up at higher TP (because instead of lets say getting 1010TP in 5 hits, you get 1150TP in 6hits), so your WS is even stronger than 10%. It's not as simple as lower xhit = higher dps. Yes I know that which is kinda why im saying if making this claim and saying in the same sets as current it just doesn't add up. You would be leaving dps on the table if anything at that point. I don't use the xhit was more so using it as a point of gear should be switched. Also legit question wouldnt the 10%WSD be semi low gain anyway if we assume attack capped and stuff?
By SimonSes 2022-08-02 15:06:00
Bahamut.Justthetip said: »Also legit question wouldnt the 10%WSD be semi low gain anyway if we assume attack capped and stuff?
Not sure how haste capped and attack capped is related to what 10% WS bonus from /drg would give you. Lower haste and attack would only lower dps, but wouldn't change split for white/WS damage, unless your TP and WS set are based on very different PDL levels and lower attack would mean you cap one, but not other.
Also you realize it's unique 10% WS damage bonus. It multiplies whole WS damage by ~110% instead of stacking with WSD from gear/gifts. Just making sure.
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 974
By Bahamut.Justthetip 2022-08-02 15:33:03
Bahamut.Justthetip said: »Also legit question wouldnt the 10%WSD be semi low gain anyway if we assume attack capped and stuff?
Not sure how haste capped and attack capped is related to what 10% WS bonus from /drg would give you. Lower haste and attack would only lower dps, but wouldn't change split for white/WS damage, unless your TP and WS set are based on very different PDL levels and lower attack would mean you cap one, but not other.
Also you realize it's unique 10% WS damage bonus. It multiplies whole WS damage by ~110% instead of stacking with WSD from gear/gifts. Just making sure. Well the haste cap thing idk what your talking about outside of me comparing what you gain vs what you lose when changing subs. Yes im aware of the way the unique bonus works. I guess its like you said before we aren't gonna really see each other on this because I don't know fights that only last 3-6 mins in end game setups beside maybe helms? All in all sub what you want and make it work.
Bahamut.Braams
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
By Bahamut.Braams 2022-08-02 15:35:15
I really wish there were attack dummies similar to the ones in XIV where you could go all out on and get the results in real time and settle minutiae instead of ancillary & arbitrary numbers in a sheet or napkin math. /shrug make a simulation then, can setup the logic to spam, SC, multi-step, toggle JAs, Aftermath, etc.
That's fine too. I mean, the way I see it at least, some folx use spreadsheets, in your case Austar (and possibly others) a simulator is a more effective tool.
I know I'm an outlier in most of these discussions but a lot of the numbers don't help me much... I've played the job long enough to be extremely familiar with what dmg I'm doing based on buffs/debuffs used and can create a model/graph in my mind with minimal information/data.
 Shiva.Humpo
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 269
By Shiva.Humpo 2022-08-02 16:19:58
I really wish there were attack dummies similar to the ones in XIV where you could go all out on and get the results in real time and settle minutiae instead of ancillary & arbitrary numbers in a sheet or napkin math. /shrug make a simulation then, can setup the logic to spam, SC, multi-step, toggle JAs, Aftermath, etc.
That's fine too. I mean, the way I see it at least, some folx use spreadsheets, in your case Austar (and possibly others) a simulator is a more effective tool.
I know I'm an outlier in most of these discussions but a lot of the numbers don't help me much... I've played the job long enough to be extremely familiar with what dmg I'm doing based on buffs/debuffs used and can create a model/graph in my mind with minimal information/data.
On DRK, i can pretty much just "feel" if my dps is low, hazard of playing the job so long.
On other jobs, I'll usually try for a "real world" test. Recently tested out 30 minutes fighting apex on pld/war with neagling vs R15 excal. Spreadsheet might say one wins vs the other, but my level of suck may say different! For me, overall DPS with neagling was higher, but when factoring in skillchain damage from lights, excal pulled ahead ever so slightly. (scoreboard)
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By Nariont 2022-08-02 17:41:08
Spreadsheet has issues accounting for possible sc damage of ws, in a lot of cases if your ws can consistently close a sc itll pull ahead of the "best" ws, though depends on the level of sc too/resists and so on
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Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3753
By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2022-08-02 17:48:44
and my biggest issue with simulations/attack dummy type things...they don't fight back. And on DRK, that can be a big deal if no hyped up Drain3+spikes is possible due to the mob type,etc.
Yeah, we can definitely take a hit better than most non-tank jobs, and Drain3/Spikes gives us a tool most tanks would lose sleep dreaming about having....but catch us at the wrong time and its game over, baby.
So sure, sims and the like can do a lot for base understanding of job/gear interactions, but in my mind they'll always be risky to put complete trust in due to the fact that they can't simulate getting your ***pushed in^^
Ramuh.Austar
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2022-08-02 17:53:31
Yes they can
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3753
By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2022-08-02 17:57:17
Then I stand corrected, because all the data I have ever seen posted never involved having to balance hate to avoid damage, damage dealt to evaluate the safety of a set, or the like.
Just a matter of lack of exposure on my part, then.
By SimonSes 2022-08-02 18:38:14
You can do everything in sim, but creating such sim and QAing it to make sure it's actually doing what you want and has no errors is a giant task that almost none gonna do, because you could make similar project for real word problem as part of your daily job or additional job and earn lots of $$. It's not impossible tho that someone will from time to time make something more advanced anyway, like stuff Izanami is doing for NIN for example.
By qe58hmr 2022-08-05 03:19:30
what skillchains for great sword and for Scythe
forget to mention i have Caladbolg and Liberator do i need more weapons?
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1360
By Odin.Creaucent 2022-08-05 05:17:49
GS = Torcleaver
Scythe = Entropy > Cross Reaper > Quietus or 4 step Insurgency > Entropy > Cross Reaper > Quietus for darkness skillchains. Guillotine > Shadow of Death > Insurgency for light.
Since you have Liberator you also have the option of firing off Insurgency at 2000tp.
Welcome To advanced drk thread! Read spoiler if its your first time here. So I have been contemplating to start a new thread like this as it seemed redundant, but Some people have suggested/asked if I would. The drk guide is great and getting updated quickly, so this is by no means to replace or even compete with that. If your new, have fun reading this guide, but post Q's in the normal forums for beginning things. The focus here is true endgame such as Helms, etc.
The idea of this thread is for HIGH END sets only. We can theory craft about other sets too for such content. I highly suggest that if you plan to post/comment in this Thread that you also Post your sets for people to see. Less pages of crap posts is better (fighting), I hate panning through 117+ pages of dark thread to find an answer, lets not do that here.
I will personally try and keep my sets as up to date as possible, with augment remarks. I feel this wil help alot more than "Its to variable!", that helps no one asking. While augments are a pain in the butt, non-DM augments can be closely replicated between players, it does require a lot of stones/time, but if you're here its bc you have said gil/time probably. I find that between high end drks, augs start to look closely the same. Maybe DRK A got 5 acc 1 stp more on said piece, but 7 acc 1 stp less on another compared to DRK B, so in the end they are nearly identical. Don't include DM augs when making suggestions without mentioning its a DM aug.
I also have included below after my sets my lua, the gear sets will not match what I post here and what is there since one (probably lua) or the other could be out of date. However the basic format of the Lua is what matters, so use that too. Lets talk and code in some needed things and get a really good Lua built for the community too. I would love to have someone who has the know-how to make a DRK spreadsheet and I will publish it here too. Nearly every forum at least has one and I have yet to find an up to date spreadsheet for drk.
Enjoy and be nice!
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