High End Sets Advice/Suggestions/Ideas/LUA

job trait is additive, gear is multiplicative

Just read that on BG, so SimonSes is correct. Since this is the top of a new page.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Damage_Limit%2B

I dont have the gear myself to test. Are we sure that the helm is considered Bis? That would be news to me. Lets assume capped everything.

For insurgence 100% yes. I did the math as an additive and it was just behind Ratri+1. Since it’s actually multiplied it will without question be better.

The 5% applying to all hits is the main advantage.

Considering diminishing returns for both its:
Stinger 5%PDL is +4.5% for whole WS because of +2 neck ( 1.15 / 1.1 = 1.04545 )
Ratri's 8%WSD is 4.9% for first hit, because of already 62%WSD in insurgency set 1.7 / 1.62 = 1.4938

Dang I thought it would do better. I was considering swapping out Ratri+1 for Stinger+1 on Catastrophe to get rid of some DMG Taken+

If I am understanding correctly it 'should' still beat ratri due to the fact the 4.5% is pre wsd on it? Meaning that increase in the base will then get multiplied by the WSD. Correct me if I am wrong, the ws formulas I am not very good with.

Stinger+1 does do better when you consider all hits of Insurgency compared to Ratri+1. I ran some numbers this morning, and with capped attack Stinger +1 is ahead of Ratri+1 across all TP levels. Give me a bit of time for formatting and I'll post a comparison.

Formatting in progress, will update with edit when done:

Helmet Comparison
Taking multipliers to damage only here, not touching stat mods, acc, attack, fSTR, or the like.

Controls:
62% WSD
+25/256 fTP bonus (Fotia belt)
AM3 up adding 80% multiattack to slot1
No other multiattack
+10% PDL (Abyssal +2)

Decided to throw Flamma +2 (5% TA) and Gavialis Helm (+30/256 fTP) into the mix, because why not.
Method of getting these multiplier numbers was:
Take Insurgency TP breakdown, add fTP bonus, multiply by WSD, add extra hits corrected for AM3 and multiattack, and finally multiply by PDL.
The "Gain" line for each helmet is the gain in multiplier for the piece as compared to wearing no helmet.

Things of note:
As expected, Stinger +1's flat PDL multiplier consistently tops everything else (Assuming attack is capped)
Gavialis Helm shows some interesting results, topping Flamma +2 at all TP levels. By extension we can use this to contemplate Fotia Belt, and how we really don't have any belt that can touch it at this time.
Stacking multiattack vs WSD is only worth considering in the 1000-1500 range, which with a Moonshade Earring is an even smaller window. A thing that can technically be done, but not realistically worth bothering with.
Moonshade is huge, no surprises there.

/edit I have Dynamis to do, this should be good enough for now

be interesting to see how ths holds for things like every other main drk ws. Anyone bored today? :D

Insurgency is the hardest one to work with conceptually with how odd it is to build around. It's more straightforward for other WS.

1.7 / 1.62 = 4.948% gain from Ratri+1, compared to a 4.55% gain from going from 10% to 15% PDL from Stinger+1

Ratri should win for single hit scythe WS, Stinger should just barely beat it for Cross Reaper. Don't know about Entropy, Stinger+1 should be pretty good if not BiS.

For Great Sword it is probably pretty close to Flamma+2 for Reso. For me at least, too close to call by eyeballing.
Torcleaver, on the other hand, the only real competition is DM augments, so if you don't have a DM augment so good it beats Ratri+1 then Stinger+1 is gonna be BiS

Back to the golden age of Ace's helm we go!
That was for tp thou, but w/e :P

wouldnt the 4.55% gain before adding in what wsd will do to it?

no

gotcha so the WSD multiplyer happens before the PDL increase figured in is what your saying? I would have thought it differenct but that is good to know.

When there is only a single hit in the weapon skill PDL and WSD are both multipliers to the same term, it doesn't matter in which order you multiply them.
When you tack on more hits (with a double attack proc, for instance) you have to break things up, but they generally add so little to single hitters that they can be written off as negligible.

Gotcha its just hard keeping up at this point but I would like to make the first post as up to date as possible soon. I know its outdated. There is just so much side-grade gear now its becomming a challenge.

So it sounds like its pretty safe to assume (attack capped) that Stringer+1 will be Bis for insurgency, entropy, CR, and Reso, and scourge? But still is 2nd place for Cata and Quietus?

I am not seeing how it beats Torc though with basic taupe augs of 15vit/4wsd.

Yeah, pretty much what I wrote earlier :P
Also it can win or break even for single hit Scythe WSs too, because both Cata and Quietus has STR mods (with INT or MND) and Stinger with high enough unity rank has up to 3 more STR, while having same INT and +3MND. Personally I would leave Ratri for Cata tho, because you heal anyway and Ratri still has much more attack, which might be useful in scenario when you use Cata the most (solo?) and lack of attack would also mean not attack capped, so pdl would be useless. Even when you are sure of attack cap tho, Cata heals you, so I would rather have higher meva, than lacks of +DT :P I would use Stinger for Quietus tho, because it has ignore def, so its easier to cap attack, you dont heal yourself and because of possible +3STR and guaranteed +3MND the damage should be at least the same as with Ratri.

Two comments:
First:
VIT is a stat mod that affects base damage through WSC. I was EXPLICITLY not taking VIT into account for this comparison.

Second:
A taupe augmented Odyssean Helm with 15 VIT and 4% WSD is not basic.
Yes, you can get one with eventually with taupe stones, but to get one that also has enough accuracy to make it actually usable? That is a tall order.
A 15 VIT 4% WSD Odyssean Helm is not something everyone just has lying around.

/edit
Additionally, a 15/4 Ody helm should be roughly equivalent to another generic helmet with about 9% WSD. Functionally comparable to doing Ratri+1 for this case, if slightly better. And then you start to have to consider all the accuracy on Stinger+1 versus having to consider PDL and attack, it gets messy fast. There is a reason I kept the above comparison as simple as I could.

We are greatful for your time to compare :D

Just saying - 15 vit/ 4 wsd augment is not hard to get, and its very cheap now. If you own a calad, you have the time/gil to get one.

Agreed on the "not expensive" aspect of getting it, but @Mims's point about the accuracy deserves the focus. Getting those numbers with 25+ accuracy? definitely not a simple task, even with thousands of stones. Considering how much I hate Torcleaver, I won't chance my better damage Ody helm (VIT+10, acc+6, atk+20, wsd+4) vs my higher acc helm (acc+34, atk+23, wsd+4). One extra missed Torcleaver and the lost damage from that would take dozens of landed ones to overcome, even with insanely potent augments.

It could be cheap but could also never happen.

well in the comparison of ratri+1 which provides no acc except from the dex, your typical ody helm will have more and provide more dmg.

should always have multiple acc tiers in your lua. Change as needed. Use a 15vit/4wsd ody helm in your low acc set, and a stinger in the high acc. If acc is an issue, prob arent using calad anyhow. Acc capped is acc capped, its that simple - you will always miss some torc and thats just part of the job.

"I am to lazy to aug my gear", is not a good enough excuse at this point for comparing gear. It use to be a gil consideration and people would only expect 75% value such as 12vit/3wsd and that was considered good enough, that is no longer the truth. Thats why DM augs are still not expected. The day DM gets down to 1k a piece (it wont) like a taupe stone then that wont hold true either and we will be expect to have 10wsd augs on everything. If you want to use the "I am lazy" approach that is perfectly fine as we all subjectively value our time differently, however SE didnt program in our feeling about time usage.

My issue with Torcleaver's accuracy is related to the nature of 1-hit weaponskills, even with Caladbolg and high accuracy sets/buffs/food.

Yes, there are times for that "lowACC" set, I just find the longer I play the job the less I trust it for greatsword...probably why I prefer scythe in general. But there still are times when the Caladbolg needs brought out, and I'm just more inclined to overgear for accuracy than any other thing, then back off as capable in lieu of more damage.

I also prefer Scythe at this point, so you are not alone. But that is also because DRK only gets brough to things that matter at this point with super buffs because everything else at this point is just done better by malignance jobs, or savage blade drgs.

stacking an unnecessary 200 acc isn't going to change that.

go ahead, break my heart and hopes with facts... ^^

Azagarth, you keep misconstruing what I'm saying, and I'm kind of sick of it.

The entire point of the comparison was to show how PDL and WSD compare when stacked to endgame levels. As a bit of an afterthought, I threw fTP bonus and some multiattack in there for reference. The whole point is to show how these interact when stacked on a modern Insurgency set, in as straightforward a way as possible.

This comparison did not take stat mods, wsc, base damage, attack, accuracy, or a whole slew of other things into account. It was not supposed to. This comparison was not, and is not intended to be an end-all be-all comparison of what is the best in slot helmet. Trying to include too much stuff would be counterproductive in that the entire point here is to whittle down the factors so that we are only comparing ONE stat per piece of gear.

Azagarth, you asked me to expand the comparison to other weaponskills, and when I did, I started using the dangerous term BiS. What I was saying is that, WITHIN THESE INTENTIONALLY LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES, one piece would win out over the others. I am not on some kind of STINGER+1 ONRY bandwagon, I don't even intend to buy one for myself in the near future. If it sounded like I was making some kind of broader claim about which pieces are best overall, I apologize for not being clear enough.

YOU asked about Odyssean Helm, a piece I wanted to leave out, because it's stat mods are what make it as a piece. Including a 15/4 Odyssean helm meant I had to do one of two things, either start taking stat mods into account on a large scale, or find a way to take the stat mods into account in terms of WSD. I chose the latter, because its both easier, and it wouldn't invalidate the "compare one thing at a time" nature of what I'm doing here.

So I went and looked at base damage, stacked VIT and DEX, and came up with approximately a 5.12 to one VIT to WSD ratio. A 15/4 Ody helm has roughly a 25 VIT advantage over other helmets. This is how I got the idea of a "Generic 9% WSD helmet," I'm considering Ody's 25 extra VIT as 5% WSD and adding it to a 4% WSD augment.

Now, the part about comparing the Odyssean Helm and Ratri+1. Odyssean Helm and the Generic 9% WSD helmet are the SAME THING for the sake of this argument. Not their acc, not their VIT not their +DT. The only thing that matters here is effective WSD. Thats it. The idea is that if you want to know how it compares to other pieces of gear in these predefined, limited circumstances, you can look at the numbers on Ratri+1 and see that a generic 9% WSD helm is going to be really close to the numbers that have already been put out. You can take the numbers on Ratri, raise them a fraction, and poof, you have a point of comparison.

All that said, here are some things the comparisons DON'T consider:
Attack capping all the time is not a thing. Even for Drks, assuming attack is capped at all times is stupid, and that makes working with PDL gear tricky. The moment attack dips is the moment Stinger+1 starts losing. Abyssal+2 neck has more things going for it than just it's PDL, that's not really the case for Stinger+1.
You may like your 15/4 Odyssean helm, but if an Odyssean Helm (or gauntlets, for that matter) has less than a +29 accuracy augment, I'm not even going to consider it for my LOW accuracy set. Yes, I use multiple accuracy sets. Personally I consider 1200 pre-buff accuracy my minimum. Maybe you are okay with 1100 as a minimum, that is your business.

Nobody is making this argument. If you think people are using this as an excuse, you are either not reading what people saying, or are deliberately misrepresenting what people are saying. Either way, stop.

Is there not an updated drk dps spreadsheet? Can actually compare all the offensive stats when looking at different pieces of gear in a spreadsheet and consider different mob and buff situations.

Kinda late, but this is 85store TP with /sam. Thats around 789TP after 3 hit. So you need like ~211 TP from WS and regain. WS gives around 173. In this case you need two regain tics for 4hit build, not one.