Random Arguments & Strawmen #15

That's not how babies are born.

Everywhere we look the visible spectrum is rainbows !!!!

I'm tired of the government and their fluoride agenda.

This type of ideology fails. You can look at the wealthy as an example of this. They have enough money to live yet they still keep trying to make more, who is to say those that are on "livable welfare" don't want better lives for themselves? They could actually start piecing things together.

I would be surprised by this type of thinking, but then again, you are a socialist, so I'm not surprised one bit.

You do know why socialism will fail, right?

That's not how vaccines work.

I agree that the whole "vaccines cause autism" is a bunch of dumb idiots making bad decisions for their children. I also agree that the government should not deny education to young children based on the parents being dumb, nor should the government be forcing needles into children at gunpoint.

I'll say it loud and clear, non-vaccinated children can not transmit a pathogen to a vaccinated child nor can they provide fertile breeding grounds for mutations. If anything vaccinated children would be the ones where a mutation would take place for the reason antibiotic resistant bacteria didn't arrive until after mass distribution and use of antibiotics.

The people saying "we must forcible vaccinate little Johnny or he'll kill everyone in the school" are just as misinformed and irrational as those saying "vaccination will cause little Johnny to be autistic". Both are based purely on fear.

No no no, that's only those other forms of communism / socialism, their own special brand will somehow succeed and become the dominate social system in the world.

That's the argument of every communist / socialist everywhere.

This statement is inaccurate.

I don't believe in pure socialism in the same way I don't believe in pure capitalism. They will both fail for the same reason. I think that enacting certain aspects of them in our political system will lead to a better result benefiting the people. For you to think that people will just stop working once they have shelter and food show how much propaganda you have bought into.

Do you think Public schools are a bad thing? That is a socialistic idea.

I mean, that kind of is how vaccines work.

The fear is that more and more people will not get vaccines and old virus' will come back and they will mutate. Even providing a chance for that to happen is stupid especially when vaccines are easy to get.

Going by your statements, I don't think so.

Socialism is a political and economical theory. I'm talking about the economical aspect of it.

Sure, pure socialism and pure capitalism have it's downsides, but we never had either extremes.

However, that doesn't change the fact that you can label one economic system as a socialistic or capitalistic system. What you are alluding to is the socialistic system.

Let me ask you this: Is France's economic system ideal in your mind?

It's neither. If you classify it as a socialistic idea only, then you don't understand what socialism is.

You are also classifying that capitalism wants no social involvement. Is that what you think?

Vaccines work to create heard immunity which helps prevent the spread of diseases. It's most beneficial to those who cannot be immunized due to allergies or age.

AKA the more people who get vaccinated, the better for society.

I think you are trying to connect my personal belief's with some economical platform. I think every person deserves a life, and its that simple. If you want to label goodwill as socialism, then by all means do that. Your approach here is to limit my view by labeling me and then judging me along with everyone else labelled that way. That is how propaganda has worked in the past and how it still works. The red scare is a great example of this.

Yes and allowing otherwise would ruin the herb immunity. Which is why I think public schools are in the right to bar non-vaccinated children from attending. Given, of course, they don't have a valid reason not too.

herd*

So do I. But I don't believe that we should hand out that life for free. If you want to live a good life, you should work for it.

Otherwise, if nobody works, nobody will do anything.

Socialism is, in essence, living off the state and giving as little effort as possible. Do you honestly believe that, by giving as little effort as possible, we can advance as a society? That we can continue to make the technological achievements today if we did as little as possible to achieve them? That we can feed as many people in goodwill as we possibly can if it wasn't for the people who actually went out, and did the work needed to grow that food.

You are able to give more towards society, both as growing and as charity in a capitalistic society where effort = reward (somewhat) than it is to do so in a socialistic society where effort < reward (again, somewhat).

Yes, there will be winners and losers in a capitalistic society, but it's much better to society as a whole than a system that only has losers in it.

Right and it would be important if the USA was a third world country with rampant deadly diseases. Since that isn't the case, "herd immunity" is an invalid argument, especially since humans aren't livestock. Since not only have we eradicated those deadly communicable diseases (in first world countries), the vast majority of the population also volunteers for vaccination just to be sure. The argument that some dumb parent's kid will kill off everyone else is extremely dumb and born purely out of fear and ignorance. Pathogens are most likely to come from non-vaccinated (or expired vaccination) people vacationing / backpacking in third world countries and then brought back into the USA (or first world nation of choice) and communicated. Children will be the least effected population segment.

Personally any children I have in the future will be 100% vaccinated because I happen to believe in modern medicine. What I can't consciously accept is forcing parents and children, at gunpoint, to get vaccinations that they consciously chose not to get. That's far too close to an authoritarian society for my tastes. Nor can I accept denying those same children basic public education provided, at no cost, to other children. It really gets into the concept of informed consent.

The best way to fight the anti-vaccine people is with public information campaigns and social stigma. It's not immediate nor foolproof but over the long term will provide for a better resolution without granting the government irrevocable power to mandate, again at gunpoint, what "medication" a person must take.

So much wrong scientific information too. *heavy sighing*

I'm too tired for this ***.

Every system has winners and losers, capitalism vs socialism (communism) just differs on how those are chosen. In a capitalist society effect and ingenuity are mostly rewarded and those the winners and losers are determined by the combined effect of markets. In a socialist (communist) society a small group of individuals determine winners and losers via mandates and government bureaucracy. In a capitalistic society it's possible for hard work and ingenuity to advance one's socioeconomic position and even effect change on the society. In a socialist (communism) society you have virtually zero chance of doing so as only those born into the elite government political class will have any real opportunity. Those born to the common class will have to fight over whatever the political elite allow them to fight over.

You can see this in China, there are local capitalistic markets but the government maintains absolute authority and appoints the region managers who then appoint all the bureaucrats the run the state. Doing anything with a bureaucratic connection is impossible and the government has absolute power over winners and losers. Now this is an extreme example but it does provide a good contrast to see where Socialism (Communism) lead and how it ultimately works.

I accept that we should neither force parents to vaccinate their children against their beliefs nor deny schooling to those children whose only "crime" is that their parents denied them vaccines based on the parent's beliefs. I only accept it because those parents have a right to an opinion, even though I strongly disagree with said opinion.

I do think, however, if possible, that those children should be segregated into a specific class because of their parent's belief. Sure, they will lose out on a lot of social aspects of schooling, but it's mostly to punish the parents than it is to punish the children who, honestly speaking, have no say in the matter.

That's the same position I have. I support vaccinations and am whole heartily for everyone getting them. I'm also a big fan of free choice and absolutely detest forcing people, again at gun point, to comply or die. I much prefer using incentives and social stigma. Something as simple as a discount or tax break on Health Insurance for children who are vaccinated will ensure you get all but the most anti-vaccers and to be honest there is nothing that can be done about those people. I can't stand them and think their idiots but I won't go around advocating to persecute them either.

I always wondered why my pediatrician was carrying during our visits.

On an interesting note, remember that divide between rural and urban cultures / voters. Contrast that to the comments by the people in this thread, specifically by their tone, attitude and complete lack of respect for "the other side". That is why all those rural Americans voted for Trump and the reason the left is losing power in the USA. I can identify someone's political ideology almost entirely by the tone they take when talking to someone they disagree with.

This is wrong. Socialist societies have winners. They're called "politicians".

Instigation is only sometimes fun. Perhaps a poem about peace and tranquility looking forward rather than behind?

Don't worry I'm sure liberal tears give me all the vitamins and minerals a man needs !

OK, been backreading, been away since 7:AM and oh**** 9 pages????

Lets talk quintiles, an in 5ths (On the 4th day of Xmas my true love gave to me 6 5ths of scotch...)

Middle class is concentrated in the 2ed - 4th quintile, slopping a bit onto the 5th.

1st and 2ed quintile pay NO INCOME TAX. Because to push through the tax cuts for the filthy rich the GOP had to give tax cuts to the middle class too. Many in the 3rd quintile and a few in the 4th don't either.

THEY ARE NOT TAKERS.

Sales taxes, consumption taxes, VATs, all hit the great unwashed WAY harder than they hit the well off. As in the more stuff you buy, and the less you invest, the more those taxes hurt you and the less they hurt the 1st percentile.

Let no one tell you differently, taxation is self inflicted wounds. Who do you wish to inflict?