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Rules rewrite (draft)
By Rooks 2015-11-08 11:30:56
I actually find the old rules are more clear and easier to understand in my opinion. This just seems like its done to cover only the moderators and anyone that falls under their "discretion" has nothing to go back on. "Rules-Lawyering" being the only thing that would benefit someone who felt they were unjustly moderated.
They are the exact same rules with less verbose language. The only actual change is that I made it clear that moderators have some flexibility in punishments.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-11-08 11:34:05
Trust me when I tell you, being the one face of the mod team and seeming to be the one person making the calls on hundreds of users is hard work and results in pointless hatred against you. Jassik is right, mods and admins usually communicate and sometimes make the wrong call, mods are only human and for whatever reason we make the habit of never dropping one mistake even if it's been learned from.
Not every mistake or perceived injustice needs to be put on a velvet pillow and pointed out to the public a month later, they just need to be learned from.
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By Ackeron 2015-11-08 11:35:33
I can't wait for these new rules that are pretty much the exact same as the old rules so I can ban hammer you all!
By Draylo 2015-11-08 11:38:52
I can't wait for these new rules that are pretty much the exact same as the old rules so I can ban hammer you all!
Yeah I'm sure you would like that.
They are the exact same rules with less verbose language. The only actual change is that I made it clear that moderators have some flexibility in punishments.
It just seems like most of the rules were deleted and you only added in one general vague one so that mods have open field to justify whatever under something general and not specific. Like I said, it just seems to me like it is only to help moderators and doesn't help any regular user.
By Jassik 2015-11-08 11:44:08
Wow. I never thought I'd see populism applied to internet forum rules.
If you see specific differences you don't agree with, feel free to point them out.
By Draylo 2015-11-08 11:44:35
Trust me when I tell you, being the one face of the mod team and seeming to be the one person making the calls on hundreds of users is hard work and results in pointless hatred against you. Jassik is right, mods and admins usually communicate and sometimes make the wrong call, mods are only human and for whatever reason we make the habit of never dropping one mistake even if it's been learned from.
Not every mistake or perceived injustice needs to be put on a velvet pillow and pointed out to the public a month later, they just need to be learned from.
Not sure exactly what you are talking about? Nobody said being a moderator was super easy or that your mistakes should be broadcasted to the entire site. Lets be honest, this site doesn't see the traffic it used to. You only have a handful of active posters and suspending people for minor things is hardly the right response.
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By Draylo 2015-11-08 11:45:58
Wow. I never thought I'd see populism applied to internet forum rules.
If you see specific differences you don't agree with, feel free to point them out.
The thread is discussion about the new rules, if you don't like people discussing it why did you join in? No need to be sarcastic and aggressive.
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By Jassik 2015-11-08 11:47:55
Wow. I never thought I'd see populism applied to internet forum rules.
If you see specific differences you don't agree with, feel free to point them out.
The thread is discussion about the new rules, if you don't like people discussing it why did you join in? No need to be sarcastic and aggressive.
I wasn't being sarcastic or aggressive, it's levity. The rules presented are a draft and open to discussion. Again, feel free to point out any specific rules you think need another look.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-11-08 11:50:36
Trust me when I tell you, being the one face of the mod team and seeming to be the one person making the calls on hundreds of users is hard work and results in pointless hatred against you. Jassik is right, mods and admins usually communicate and sometimes make the wrong call, mods are only human and for whatever reason we make the habit of never dropping one mistake even if it's been learned from.
Not every mistake or perceived injustice needs to be put on a velvet pillow and pointed out to the public a month later, they just need to be learned from.
Not sure exactly what you are talking about? Nobody said being a moderator was super easy or that your mistakes should be broadcasted to the entire site. Lets be honest, this site doesn't see the traffic it used to. You only have a handful of active posters and suspending people for minor things is hardly the right response. I'd agree with you there. From what I took from talking to Rooks recently, the new rules are more or less meant to be less strict rather than an "Is this user doing any of these?" check list. The bigger issues are the Google AdSense rules. The newer, less strict rules should mean less bans over minor issues.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-11-08 11:54:07
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »As if the rules are to blame for the moderating "mechahitler 2.0" stuff causing them to have a need to be 'rewritten' for likely the same outcome. Look at the current rules, they need to be rewritten regardless.
Something-something racial epitaphs.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2015-11-08 11:54:31
Change the status of users to a HP system. It regens over time but everytime an infraction is made a chunk is lost(amount based on the seriousness). When your HP reaches 0 you get banned.
Except for Altima who has many extra lives.
Addendum: cash shop for potions to restore HP!
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By Draylo 2015-11-08 11:55:16
Wow. I never thought I'd see populism applied to internet forum rules.
If you see specific differences you don't agree with, feel free to point them out.
The thread is discussion about the new rules, if you don't like people discussing it why did you join in? No need to be sarcastic and aggressive.
I wasn't being sarcastic or aggressive, it's levity. The rules presented are a draft and open to discussion. Again, feel free to point out any specific rules you think need another look.
There is only one rule that I can see, unless some reason the page isn't loading.
Quote: Our rules
No player warning threads.
Discipline
If you see a post/PM that's violating the rules, please report it - the moderators can't possibly patrol every thread. Abusing the reporting system will get your rights to it revoked.
Rules violations are mostly handled according to a moderator's discretion. This can range anywhere from a simple editing or deletion of a post with a note, to full suspension from the site. If you feel a moderator has acted in error, talk to an administrator (Rooks is currently handling appeals). If you appeal without some clear justification for it, you may be subject to additional discipline.
vs
Quote: Moderation Policy and Procedure
Please direct any questions or concerns with the rules or enforcement to our moderators. Only contact admins with general site related issues.
Moderators follow a policy that was created by them to handle everything that users have access to.
Policy States:
Warning >> Suspension
A violation of the rules will result in a warning via a private message. Any further violations will result in a suspension of respective privilege. The suspension time will increase with each violation. Users who circumvent a suspension will be immediately suspended and current suspensions will be extended. Users who continuously circumvent will be suspended indefinitely. There are certain circumstances that a warning can be skipped and a suspension handed out.
updated: 8/3/15
Warnings and Suspensions are deliberated by fellow Moderators and are usually final. Anything given to Moderators can be used as evidence. New evidence can overturn the results.
updated: 8/3/15
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updated: 8/3/15
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Racist behavior or use of racial epitaphs are strictly prohibited (even in jest) and may result in immediate suspension. However, racism can be discussed on appropriate sections of the forum.
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Please follow Google's given guideline;
Images or videos containing the following are subject for removal:
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Any sexual role-playing and/or discussions of sexual activity are prohibited.
updated: 5/5/15
Google Adsense Policy located here.
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BG has an excellent rule that we've decided to adopt.
"Crappy posts are against the rules, even if they do not explicitly ‘break’ a rule. Don’t be a rules-lawyer. If you find yourself typing 'but what rule, exactly, did I violate', it’s this one."
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A lot are clearly defined rules. I can understand removing the portion about warning > suspension and leaving that up to discretion of the moderators but I don't get why all the rules are removed into one that is generic. If someone feels they were unjustly moderated and goes to an admin, that is fine but it shouldn't happen often in the first place. If a moderator is unwilling to discuss their course of action and actually ignores the person if they are being civil, that is wrong imo and not just rules lawyering.
By Jassik 2015-11-08 11:58:47
There were many, so unless Rooks changed it, I'm guessing that something got lost on the node.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-11-08 11:59:02
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »I wonder if one get banned for saying "white trash" :P Only if it's on an epitaph.
By Draylo 2015-11-08 12:00:33
There were many, so unless Rooks changed it, I'm guessing that something got lost on the node. Quote: As with all forums on the internet, we need at least some form of control to keep it from devolving into anarchy and MLP fan-fiction. The old rule list was long, a little verbose, and held a lot of loopholes, so here's an attempt at a more concise rewrite.
First off, let's make it clear that there are two kinds of rules: AdSense-imposed and Administration-imposed. AdSense-imposed rules are utterly non-negotiable, as they're laid down by Google and they don't negotiate in that regard. Administration-imposed rules are rules laid down by the Administrators and Moderators in an attempt to shape the sort of community we want to be. These can be discussed, amended, and changed! They can not, of course, be ignored ;) We're all (in theory) adults here; we'd like this to be a friendly an open community, but it's not a kindergarten either.
These rules apply to all sections of FFXIAH.com and FFXIVPro.com.
AdSense-based rules
Racist behavior or use of racial epithets are strictly prohibited (even in jest). You can discuss the topic of racism itself in P+R, provided it's done with decorum.
Images or videos containing: - strategically covered nudity, sheer or see-through clothing, lewd or provocative poses, or close-ups of breasts, buttocks, or crotches
Any sexual role-playing and/or discussions of sexual activity.
Those are hard requirements and will always be met with post editing (or removal) and warnings or suspensions. Please note that putting things in spoilers doesn't help; that's purely a display issue, it doesn't remove the image/etc from the page.
Our rules
No player warning threads.
Discipline
If you see a post/PM that's violating the rules, please report it - the moderators can't possibly patrol every thread. Abusing the reporting system will get your rights to it revoked.
Rules violations are mostly handled according to a moderator's discretion. This can range anywhere from a simple editing or deletion of a post with a note, to full suspension from the site. If you feel a moderator has acted in error, talk to an administrator (Rooks is currently handling appeals). If you appeal without some clear justification for it, you may be subject to additional discipline.
Culture
We are trying to foster a culture of inclusion. Everyone is equal here, without concern for sex, gender, color, creed, or any other attribute (except love of bad MLP fan fiction, which is a federally protected class to discriminate against).
Obvious jokes
Yes, the MLP references are jokes, as far as you know
Thank you for your support of our site. Please find me if you have any questions on concerns.
--Rooks
Those are the only things I see. The adsense rules are obvious and not what I was referring to being changed.
By Jassik 2015-11-08 12:01:51
Yes, it appears there is an issue with the node, unless Rooks changed it. Holding pattern commence.
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 4415
By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2015-11-08 12:03:27
It's only human to let something like Krizz ever happen.
Meanwhile, there are forums that have been running for 15 years with 100 times more active users and the same amount of mod per sub forum and yet, it has never happened.
A moderator is nothing but a policeman, all they do is blindly apply rules. The problem comes from the person above, the "manager" (it's the same as your working place, managers are by default incompetent), who's absolutely unable to 1) give a proper framework with thought through rules and 2) manage what the *** is going on.
It's exactly like any job ever, the issue is never at the bottom of the ladder but at the upper echelons. I wouldn't be mad at Krizz or whoever else for what happened, I would be mad/laugh at whoever allowed it to happen. Puppets cannot be held responsible for what the puppeteer "forces" them to do.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-11-08 12:04:02
Quote: As with all forums on the internet, we need at least some form of control to keep it from devolving into anarchy and MLP fan-fiction. The old rule list was long, a little verbose, and held a lot of loopholes, so here's an attempt at a more concise rewrite. First off, let's make it clear that there are two kinds of rules: AdSense-imposed and Administration-imposed. AdSense-imposed rules are utterly non-negotiable, as they're laid down by Google and they don't negotiate in that regard. Administration-imposed rules are rules laid down by the Administrators and Moderators in an attempt to shape the sort of community we want to be. These can be discussed, amended, and changed! They can not, of course, be ignored ;) We're all (in theory) adults here; we'd like this to be a friendly an open community, but it's not a kindergarten either. These rules apply to all sections of FFXIAH.com and FFXIVPro.com.
AdSense-based rules Racist behavior or use of racial epithets are strictly prohibited (even in jest). You can discuss the topic of racism itself in P+R, provided it's done with decorum.
Images or videos containing: - strategically covered nudity, sheer or see-through clothing, lewd or provocative poses, or close-ups of breasts, buttocks, or crotches
Any sexual role-playing and/or discussions of sexual activity.
Those are hard requirements and will always be met with post editing (or removal) and warnings or suspensions. Please note that putting things in spoilers doesn't help; that's purely a display issue, it doesn't remove the image/etc from the page.
Our rules No player warning threads.
Windower and its addons/plugins are okay to talk about, but anything that rises to the level of "bot" is forbidden.
No contest threads that require an external site. If you really want/need to do that, ask a moderator first.
Don't post private messages in public without consent of both parties. If a PM is breaking rules, it can be sent to a moderator. Any PMs sent to a moderator/admin in the course of their duties can be shared among the administration.
Don't post any personal real-life identifiable information or images about a particular user without their permission.
Don't insult or attack other users.
Don't harass other users. Harassment in this context is defined as following them around threads, unwanted PMs, and excessive behavior targeting someone else in general.
Don't quote rule-breaking posts.
Don't give threads stupid or misleading titles.
Don't flood topics.
Don't derail topics.
Don't abuse the BBCode system.
Don't provoke other users. The phrase "trolling" gets tossed around to mean all sorts of random nonsense, so I'm going with a word everyone here should understand.
Don't be hostile. It's possible to disagree or convey irritation without attacking people.
Don't sue us.
Don't be a jerk. If a moderator shows up on your doorstep and you have to ask "What rule did I break?", the odds are pretty good that it's this one. (Shoutout to BG for the inspiration)
Discipline If you see a post/PM that's violating the rules, please report it - the moderators can't possibly patrol every thread. Abusing the reporting system will get your rights to it revoked. Rules violations are mostly handled according to a moderator's discretion. This can range anywhere from a simple editing or deletion of a post with a note, to full suspension from the site. If you feel a moderator has acted in error, talk to an administrator ( Rooks is currently handling appeals). If you appeal without some clear justification for it, you may be subject to additional discipline.
Culture We are trying to foster a culture of inclusion. Everyone is equal here, without concern for sex, gender, color, creed, or any other attribute (except love of bad MLP fan fiction, which is a federally protected class to discriminate against).
Obvious jokes Yes, the MLP references are jokes, as far as you know Thank you for your support of our site.
Please find me if you have any questions on concerns. --Rooks
Pre-issue draft.
EDIT: P.S. Fricken Niko...
By Draylo 2015-11-08 12:09:36
Okay that makes more sense lol
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-11-08 12:10:19
Okay that makes more sense lol When I looked at it, I was like "WTF?! Where'd they all go?"
By Jassik 2015-11-08 12:11:12
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »It's only human to let something like Krizz ever happen.
Meanwhile, there are forums that have been running for 15 years with 100 times more active users and the same amount of mod per sub forum and yet, it has never happened.
A moderator is nothing but a policeman, all they do is blindly apply rules. The problem comes from the person above, the "manager" (it's the same as your working place, managers are by default incompetent), who's absolutely unable to 1) give a proper framework with thought through rules and 2) manage what the *** is going on.
It's exactly like any job ever, the issue is never at the bottom of the ladder but at the upper echelons. I wouldn't be mad at Krizz or whoever else for what happened, I would be mad/laugh at whoever allowed it to happen. Puppets cannot be held responsible for what the puppeteer "forces" them to do.
Well said, and that is a primary reason for reworking the rules. We have a very active Admin right now who is dedicated to building and aiding the community. The mods are only doing what they're asked to do, and temperance is being designed into the process.
 Bismarck.Magnuss
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 28615
By Bismarck.Magnuss 2015-11-08 12:13:35
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »It's only human to let something like Krizz ever happen. Ssshh shh shh... the bad man can't hurt you, anymore.
 Bahamut.Milamber
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2015-11-08 12:23:15
TheManWithTheGoldenHand said: Don't quote rule-breaking posts. I understand the intent behind this, but the feasibility is questionable.
Cerberus.Jiko
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1741
By Cerberus.Jiko 2015-11-08 12:24:46
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Hi!
I've rewritten the rules node: http://www.ffxiah.com/node/272
This is mostly just a clarification, formatting, and simplification of a number of rules, though there are some minor changes (mostly in tone). I'm hoping that this version is easier to read and follow, with less ambiguity and potential for rules-lawyering.
Thoughts? I'm going to move this to the real rules node shortly but would like some feedback first. (And discussion, if there are changes people have concerns about).
Thanks!
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