Ironguy, is your math based on Raen's which supposes Zanshin activates 10% of the time and not 40%? Also, why is the 25% accuracy boost from Zanshin wittled down to < 1% boost? As I'm reading and understand it, if you have 390 accuracy (ballpark) you get a 25% increase from that amount of accuracy on Zanshin hits which should be a near guaranteed hit in any case except blind/flash status. If the math and the numbers involved are accurate then I think the evidence is fairly well stacked against Askar and Ikishoten, but is it?
Anyway, just on an off-note, there's no need to be condescending about any of this. SAMs are far too notorious for being giant *** to perpetuate the stereotype here. lol I know KI SAM forums has a habit of breeding broken record mouth-pieces of whoever the new Darkwills and Rukenshins are, god rest their elf souls, but I see nothing wrong with having a polite demeanor, posting some links and saying your piece without acting like peens. :c
Gear Discussion/Help SAM
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Gear Discussion/Help SAM
Ironguy said: I'll give you an endless amount of links if need be to prove that Askar Korazin and Ikishoten merits are absolute trash, but the point is, Raen just flat out showed the math behind it: try to disagree to that. I'll be precise though: I'm positive that yes, Zanshin itself has a process rate of atleast 40% most likely, and probably has an accuracy boost as well of atleast +20 (10% hit rate), but even then, if you're above +90% accuracy (where you should be aiming for 100% of the time), it'll successfully activate, what... Three out of every one-hundred swings on average? Something like that, and then from there, considering 5/5 Ikishoten shaves off a hit on your -hit build when it does activate... you're getting 50 more TP every one-hundred swings, aka not even a free weapon skill for wasting half your JSM2 SAM merit slots. Hate to say it, but I think I'll keep my Shikikoyo and ability to stun ***that can kill me. You should see me stun Discoid as well as some other things; pretty freaking sexy in the long run. Actually I'd love to see said links, noone I've ever talked to does the 4 merit Iki build, lol. Either that or people are using inaccurate assumptions for Zanshin like 10% proc rate and no accuracy boost. As for the proc rate, yeah it's nice to have 90%+ acc on everything, but if you're fighting a lot of higher lvl stuff then you're probably not able to reach that level anyways. And despite it all, however small, having iki merits will allow you to get TP faster, how much depends on what you're fighting/gear/etc... You have your style and the things you use your sam on, what I do is different. So I don't really care about Shiki, and since you only need 4 Iki merits, I can still put one merit into blade bash, which seems fine for me (and which I will probably do eventually). I don't think I really need to be able to stun every 5/7.5 minutes or I'd just go drk and get a 2nd 45 sec recast stun for free, lol. Faiye said: Your whole argument is flawed beyond belief. Also, you do realize that the attack triggered by Zanshin can also miss? Yes they can but they also have an acc boost built in, look above. Nightcrew said: is it just me or does this whole "lower acc for Zanshin proc" just sound like a TON more work then just gearing to have normal melee hit lands... I sometimes wonder why people talk about it like you're purposely lowering acc to make Zanshin proc, lol. The gist of it is that you're maintaining a 6 hit without sacrificing haste, this removes some acc but this is made up for by the haste you've added and zanshin procs. Thunderz said: lolaskar you don't need to show me your math play with it as you like its your choice. Just don't get bumhurt when you start wiffing Don't worry, I won't be getting butthurt since I'm be getting tp faster than you, lol. It's hard to *** this job up but so many people manage to do it.
When you refuse to listen to advice and flat out ignore established tests/data so you can TP in a mediocre body piece it gets some people frustrated. i zanshin build n i always won
Baelorn said: It's hard to *** this job up but so many people manage to do it. When you refuse to listen to advice and flat out ignore established tests/data so you can TP in a mediocre body piece it gets some people frustrated. Where is this established tests/data? NOONE uses iki builds, and there's so much misinformation about zanshin in general, I highly doubt anyone's done extensive work comparing these specific cases. I have data right here, can you refute it? Btw, there's actually a small error in my calculations which fractionally benefits hauby's tp gain, not enough to be truly significant, but the fact that NO ONE has found it shows how little you guys are reading/understanding the math, lol.
Tarowyn said: Where is this established tests/data? NOONE uses iki builds, and there's so much misinformation about zanshin in general, I highly doubt anyone's done extensive work comparing these specific cases. I have data right here, can you refute it? You have posted nothing to prove that Zanshin proc rate is as high as you claim and nothing I've seen supports this massive accuracy boost that you're claiming(but hey, maybe I just don't miss enough). It would also help if you posted some parses of you testing askar vs haub(if you have any). I mentioned above, all the testing is in Japanese, I can produce but is that just going to get me flamed more? lol
Even Ironguy above, who absolutely hates the idea, supports the proc rate and agrees there's some acc boost, though of course if he's always rocking the 90% acc rate it's impossible to tell how much. Parses aren't super reliable for the fact that there's too much human error involved, switching mobs faster, overkill ws's. The math, while theoretical, is kind of pure in that sense, it's very optimal, but it's also not subject to human error ASSUMING the calculations are correct which I would like to confirm but noone has. Until Zanshin hits are 100% acc, gearing to hit will always perform better in uncapped situations. If hauby had 5 acc or something then I'd say Askar all the way, but it doesn't it has more.
I will never understand how you can think more misses = better tp. Relying on Zanshin to bring your tp up is just fail. It's a helpful trait, but not one to be relied on. Usul said: Until Zanshin hits are 100% acc, gearing to hit will always perform better in uncapped situations. If hauby had 5 acc or something then I'd say Askar all the way, but it doesn't it has more. I will never understand how you can think more misses = better tp. Relying on Zanshin to bring your tp up is just fail. It's a helpful trait, but not one to be relied on. QFT The body is strictly situational. Like low eva mobs or lower lvl'd. Anything High eva you will wiff and wiff again More misses =/= better tp, in this case, you're trading haste for acc. And the haste combined with zanshin/iki, makes up for that accuracy loss and actually helps you tp faster. It's not a straight trade of askar/hauby, it's askar+dusk vs hauby+hachi
Get Usukane Sune-Ate. Solve all Haste, STP, and ACC problems.
because everyone have them
Tarowyn said: More misses =/= better tp, in this case, you're trading haste for acc. And the haste combined with zanshin/iki, makes up for that accuracy loss and actually helps you tp faster. It's not a straight trade of askar/hauby, it's askar+dusk vs hauby+hachi Geldric said: Get Usukane Sune-Ate. Solve all Haste, STP, and ACC problems. ^ Thunderz said: because everyone have them Salvage is the new sky. this is the setup i run for TP, gives me my 6hit with minimal loss (2DA and 4Atk) and get full haste. and yes i can swap out the Ecphoria Ring for a Flame and keep 6hit. yes i;m working on getting Usukane feet and that will allow me to swap Rose for Pole Grip and Ecphoria Ring for something else. for me, i dont buy the whole let Zanshin pick up the slack. but if its something that works for you then great. but no point in trying to shove it down everyone throat.
weapon Hagun sub Rose Strap head Walahra Turban neck Spectacles ear1 Bushinomimi ear2 Brutal Earring body Haubergeon hands Dusk Gloves ring1 Rajas Ring ring2 Ecphoria Ring back Amemet Mantle +1 waist Swift Belt legs Byakko's Haidate feet Fuma Sune-Ate Lol, I actually have usu feet but because I don't use rajas, it's either askar or a hachi piece. As for getting rajas, well, sam is more of a fun job for me, I play mages more often so well, I just end up sticking with tamas. But not everyone neccesarily does have usu feet because some don't do salvage, some just have crappy drop rates, etc etc... And just for the record, if you do have usu/rajas/brutal, then yes I don't really see any point in using Askar unless you're using it for the eva against weaker stuff.
Usul said: You're still relying on it. What happens if you miss and no zanshin? The sam with a normal 6 hit build gets tp faster. Seeing how zanshin proc rate is under 50% the sam with hauby is going to tp faster over 55-60% since zanshin isn't 100% acc itself. That's where the math of it comes in, zanshin procs enough that with the added haste, I still get tp faster. And with the acc boost, while not 100%, the hit rate is very good. The thing is, zanshin only needs to proc every other time because I get double the tp of a regular hit when zanshin goes off, so at 40%, the extra 10% of the time where I don't zanshin is beaten by the haste. Keep in mind, I still have a normal 6 hit build, zanshin's just make it take off a hit, ie. 1 zanshin = 5 hit, 2 zanshin = 4 hit. Nightcrew said: this is the setup i run for TP, gives me my 6hit with minimal loss (2DA and 4Atk) and get full haste. and yes i can swap out the Ecphoria Ring for a Flame and keep 6hit. yes i;m working on getting Usukane feet and that will allow me to swap Rose for Pole Grip and Ecphoria Ring for something else. for me, i dont buy the whole let Zanshin pick up the slack. but if its something that works for you then great. but no point in trying to shove it down everyone throat. I'm not trying to shove it down everyone's throat, quite the opposite. I'm just trying to save it's feasible, and everyone just responds with crys of hauby hauby, lolaskar. They're trying to shove it down my throat when I'm just trying to show that it's a viable option. ^ take a deep breath and swallow then
Why, so I can be worse at my job?
no so you can look cool like us bandwagon sam!
one of us, one of us, one of us! Does that mean I have to start rocking the askar head/hands too? ; ;
Tarowyn said: That's where the math of it comes in, zanshin procs enough that with the added haste, I still get tp faster. And with the acc boost, while not 100%, the hit rate is very good. The thing is, zanshin only needs to proc every other time because I get double the tp of a regular hit when zanshin goes off, so at 40%, the extra 10% of the time where I don't zanshin is beaten by the haste. Keep in mind, I still have a normal 6 hit build, zanshin's just make it take off a hit, ie. 1 zanshin = 5 hit, 2 zanshin = 4 hit. I didn't say I'm going to get consistent 4 hit builds, but it can randomly happen. And like I said, every single time I hit with a zanshin, it automatically takes a hit off, there's no denying that.
You use the word rely to much, we rely on everything to a certain extent. We rely on that 95% acc actually being 95% even though we could theoretically always hit the 5%. So you do the math and figure out how it should work in theory. Reality will always slightly be off from it but in the end it should come close to what it looks like on paper. The math takes into account the 40% with 95% acc of the zanshin and still comes out ahead, if you can refute the math, go ahead, but until then, you're the one just talking based on assumptions. Tarowyn said: I mentioned above, all the testing is in Japanese, I can produce but is that just going to get me flamed more? lol Even Ironguy above, who absolutely hates the idea, supports the proc rate and agrees there's some acc boost, though of course if he's always rocking the 90% acc rate it's impossible to tell how much. Parses aren't super reliable for the fact that there's too much human error involved, switching mobs faster, overkill ws's. The math, while theoretical, is kind of pure in that sense, it's very optimal, but it's also not subject to human error ASSUMING the calculations are correct which I would like to confirm but noone has. To sum up this terrible thread full of idiocy from another japanese person who doesn't know how to play this game: Hi2u person I quoted... Askar Body. It's only a viable option when you're eating Marinara Pizza +1, with a full haste setup. Other than that, it's quite balls, and you're just not going to get it. So keep *** up the newb's minds with your garbage, so I can keep getting more annoyed with how idiots like you manage to *** up a perfectly good game. You claim you can read japanese, yet you go against all logic. What are you? HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE? Or just plain ignorant? I cannot believe that someone who claims to be able to read all the secrets of the japanese refuses to use what's been PROVEN BEST OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Denying parses? Have you even seen one where Askar Korazin comes out even CLOSE to ahead? I can show you just how bad that body makes you. Wanna see? Here.  Cimplari- Askar body/Ace's Helm, etc etc SAM with Tomoe. Vince- Me. Haub+1, only 2 polearm merits, with Tomoe as well. You can see my polearm set on my FFXIAH page. It was far worse then. No Cuchulain's, no Toreador's. Notice the accuracy issues? I was over 90%, while he's sitting at SEVENTY-SIX PERCENT. If he had used Haubergeon, he would have had about as much accuracy as me, if not more. I don't own Ace's Helm. I use Askar Zucchetto, because just like Haubergeon is better than Askar Korazin, Askar Zucchetto is better than Walahra Turban in 95% of situations you're in. Don't ask me for math on this, I'm not going to give it to you. You've ignored the math that was previously showing you to be wrong. You're going to ignore this, and throw some petty ignorant "logic" at me, trying to make you right. Too bad you're always going to be wrong. Thank you, and good night. I used rely b/c that's the only way you're going to tp faster over time. As it goes on you're going to tp slower more frequently and the longer it goes the more times you were slower.
If you're looking for 4 hits builds, that takes a 60% 5 hit round(again no ws since it's a 6 hit build) and with that your zanshin will pretty much fail. You can't win over time when the odds are against you. So dream as much as you want, you're stil tping slower. That is unless you're 'relying' on your zanshin to save you. This doesn't even take much math, it just takes common sense. @Vincevalentine: First, quit being a ***. You're completely overreacting over someone who doesn't play the game to your specifics. It really ruins the game in its entirety that he's alive doesn't it? God forbid he be from Japan or be Japanese and somehow *** this all up. lol Jesus.
Secondly, throwing out a parse with Polearms is skewing the argument. As far as I've understood this entire discussion and basis of 4-merit Ikishoten adding 2 full hits worth of TP instead of 1 is all based around GK. Does Cimplari have Ikishoten merited or are you just pointing out how dropping accuracy for a weapon that demands a ton of accuracy to both TP and WS in (polearm/penta) is inferior to using accuracy? All you've proven was Melee Job 101 in that parse. lol Bet you had fun, though! Caiyuo said: Secondly, throwing out a parse with Polearms is skewing the argument. As far as I've understood this entire discussion and basis of 4-merit Ikishoten adding 2 full hits worth of TP instead of 1 is all based around GK. Does Cimplari have Ikishoten merited or are you just pointing out how dropping accuracy for a weapon that demands a ton of accuracy to both TP and WS in (polearm/penta) is inferior to using accuracy? All you've proven was Melee Job 101 in that parse. lol Bet you had fun, though! Yeah Polearm makes the parse futile, but this isn't about the merit.. It's about askar body being better b/c of zanshin somehow making you tp faster when it has less than 1/2 proc rate. The failed logic is fail. |
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