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Does islam require forced conversions?
Bismarck.Ihina
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3187
By Bismarck.Ihina 2014-09-23 16:20:14
Yes it is. Stop waging a war on religion.
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Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 33979
By Bismarck.Dracondria 2014-09-23 16:20:17
1)Sweden comes in at #1 in a whopping 665,000 rape cases.
Are you *** HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE?
Quote: In 2013, there were 5,887 rapes reported to the Swedish police — or 63 cases per 100,000 population — according to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brå), which is a 5 percent decrease from the previous year.
There have been several international comparisons made, placing Sweden at the top end of the number of reported rapes. However, police procedures and legal definitions vary widely across countries, which makes it difficult to compare rape statistics. For example, Sweden reformed its sex crime legislation and made the legal definition of rape much wider in 2005, which largely explains a significant increase in the number of reported rapes in the ten-year period of 2004-2013. The Swedish police also record each instance of sexual violence in every case separately, leading to an inflated number of cases compared to other countries.Additionally, the Swedish police have improved the handling of rape cases, in an effort to increase the number of crimes reported.
Raised awareness and a shifting attitude of crimes against women in Sweden, which has been ranked as the number one country in gender equality, may also explain the relatively high rates of reported rape.
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-09-23 16:24:19
I may be critical of religion here on the interwebs and for good reason, I believe it's problematic in its current form and needs reforms to gel with modernity. However, I've come to understand that some people need religion and I have chosen to opt out for my personal reasons. Respect that and we can be bestest buddies ever... till you betray my trust and trigger my issues.
Having a religious system foisted on me by captors who destroyed my culture and replaced it with their own never sat right with me. The arbitrary nature of the 'good book' and its willingness to lapse into violent fits of death, rape, pillaging, brutal torture and other acts of human barbarity are the hallmarks of text written by man rather than anything approaching divinity.
The prescriptions on what to eat, who to marry/***, declaration of applicable taxes and all the other bureaucratic nonsense further lend themselves to humanity rather than some uber-powerful entity. In the infinite universe created by this being of awesome power and strength, everything stops to remind his messengers that besides physics (which he created) that taxes are the second most powerful force in all creation.
Believe it.
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Valefor.Mithano
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 541
By Valefor.Mithano 2014-09-23 16:26:18
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Can I sit down and talk to you respectfully?
Are you a decent person?
Do you show respect for others?
Are you honorable, truthful, caring, kind, thoughtful and/or intellectually stimulating?
Can you respect the will of others?
Are you trustworthy?
Do you further the cause of peace?
All of this ***transcends religion. When we can sit down at the table of brotherhood and agree to disagree, then we've finally gotten somewhere. Bogged down in the rules and regulations of a religion (that are pliable and open to interpretation) mean little beside how you operate in society.
Actually I think this list, while seeming simple, actually isn't. Certainly, -I- think all those things are obvious, but at the same time someone else might have different definitions, and that's where the problem is. Because our morality is entirely influenced by those around us, and the religion around us guides that morality, there really isn't anything that truly transcends all religion. That's why religious struggles are so hard to settle, because each side thinks the other is violating obvious moral actions, and there really isn't a way to reconcile that without forcing a religious conversion.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 16:30:25
Yes it is. Stop waging a war on religion. Who's waging which war again? There are so many phantom wars going on I have no clue who's on what side anymore.
Valefor.Sehachan
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-09-23 16:31:05
Asura.Refreshazure said: »I lack any ability to comprehend faith. It's not so hard to understand. You might not be very bright.
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Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 16:31:12
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »that taxes are the second most powerful force in all creation. damn straight!
Valefor.Sehachan
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-09-23 16:33:51
Inability to understand emotional reasoning does not make you smart. Quite the opposite.
Btw I'm atheist.
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Asura.Ccl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1997
By Asura.Ccl 2014-09-23 16:34:32
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »I may be critical of religion here on the interwebs and for good reason, I believe it's problematic in its current form and needs reforms to gel with modernity. However, I've come to understand that some people need religion and I have chosen to opt out for my personal reasons. Respect that and we can be bestest buddies ever... till you betray my trust and trigger my issues.
Having a religious system foisted on me by captors who destroyed my culture and replaced it with their own never sat right with me. The arbitrary nature of the 'good book' and its willingness to lapse into violent fits of death, rape, pillaging, brutal torture and other acts of human barbarity are the hallmarks of text written by man rather than anything approaching divinity.
The prescriptions on what to eat, who to marry/***, declaration of applicable taxes and all the other bureaucratic nonsense further lend themselves to humanity rather than some uber-powerful entity. In the infinite universe created by this being of awesome power and strength, everything stops to remind his messengers that besides physics (which he created) that taxes are the second most powerful force in all creation.
Believe it.
The issue with wedding is because at the "origin" it was a religious thing, they should have renamed it when we separated church and state to make a difference between religious union and state/paper/official union pretty sure conservative would have accepted it if the name wasn't he same cause in their head wedding=religious act.
Cerberus.Pleebo
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-09-23 16:37:03
Asura.Refreshazure said: »For you maybe you think with emotions and not logical thought.
emotions have no factor in my decisions only evidence and improving efficiency.
therefore faith is not compatible or understandable. Perhaps you mean that you can't empathize with it? In that case, I can understand that sentiment.
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-09-23 16:39:02
Charity transcends religion. I help you when you're in a jam, you feel good that someone took their time to help you.
Love transcends religion. People meet, form attachments and a mutual understanding of eachother. Bonds that can be fleeting or last a lifetime.
Humor transcends religion. Someone gets caught in the rain, we all laugh at someone elses misery. Then we fetch them a towel so they don't catch cold.
Respect transcends religion. The Golden Rule is literally in every religion on the planet. Do you like being punched in the ***? No? Don't punch others in the ***.
Friendship transcends religion. We like fishing? Cool, lets be friends and go on adventures trying to snag the big one.
Honor transcends religion. Do you protect those who can't protect themselves? Go out of your way to save someone from a fire? Help little old ladies cross the street? Carry water for others?
Do you enjoy pleasant days? The ability to partake in recreation and enjoy the planet for the brief moment we exist on it? You enjoy peace. Now fetch me your cultures traditional snack for pleasant days.
By Blazed1979 2014-09-23 16:40:13
Asura.Refreshazure said: »Inability to understand emotional reasoning does not make you smart. Quite the opposite.
Btw I'm atheist.
Oh no I completely understand emotional reasoning that's why I can decode religious people so well.
experiencing faith would require me to use emotional reasoning which is impossible for me to do.
if you didn't get the hint by now I'm not the average human being.
Cerberus.Tikal
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4945
By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-23 16:41:11
Asura.Refreshazure said: »Inability to understand emotional reasoning does not make you smart. Quite the opposite.
Btw I'm atheist.
Oh no I completely understand emotional reasoning that's why I can decode religious people so well.
experiencing faith would require me to use emotional reasoning which is impossible for me to do.
if you didn't get the hint by now I'm not the average human being. You use emotional reasoning, whether you like it or not. It may be subtle, it may even be unconscious, but you use it. You're not special.
Ragnarok.Vitaru
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 255
By Ragnarok.Vitaru 2014-09-23 16:41:52
What you are seeing of war in the world today is due to greed, thirst for power and god knows what, only the naive would think it has anything to do with any religion.
If you travel long enough you realize that the normal man wants his right protected and to live in peace.
The only thing that need to be taken down with Bazooka is a post like this.
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Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 16:42:27
Asura.Refreshazure said: »Asura.Refreshazure said: »I lack any ability to comprehend faith. It's not so hard to understand. You might not be very bright.
For you maybe you think with emotions and not logical thought.
emotions have no factor in my decisions only evidence and improving efficiency.
therefore faith is not compatible or understandable. I don't allow emotions to dictate my life at all either.
However, I understand that emotions can play in the decision process of humans, and that the need to express emotions through decisions is a normal and accepted practice that people make.
Just because one doesn't allow emotions to dictate their decisions doesn't mean that you can ignore it at all. You are not a robot, so stop pretending to be one!
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 16:43:27
What you are seeing of war in the world today is due to greed, thirst for power and god knows what, only the naive would think it has anything to do with any religion.
If you travel long enough you realize that the normal man wants his right protected and to live in peace.
The only thing that need to be taken down with Bazooka is a post like this. Greed on which side though? If you say only one, then you are deluding yourself.
Valefor.Sehachan
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-09-23 16:44:36
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Asura.Ccl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1997
By Asura.Ccl 2014-09-23 16:44:37
Do not worry Refreshazure we noticed you're special, but no in the way you think
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Cerberus.Tikal
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4945
By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-23 16:45:37
What you are seeing of war in the world today is due to greed, thirst for power and god knows what, only the naive would think it has anything to do with any religion. Religion is a vehicle to do many things. Following certain "holy" books verbatim can lead to some very aggressive and morally reprehensible actions. Like anything though, it's a matter of use.
Quote: If you travel long enough you realize that the normal man wants his right protected and to live in peace. Subjective and anecdotal experience.
Quote: The only thing that need to be taken down with Bazooka is a post like this. Discussion is incredibly important. It's people who wish to quell discussion that are probably the most dangerous of all.
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 33979
By Bismarck.Dracondria 2014-09-23 16:45:44
Asura.Refreshazure said: »Asura.Refreshazure said: »For you maybe you think with emotions and not logical thought.
emotions have no factor in my decisions only evidence and improving efficiency.
therefore faith is not compatible or understandable. Perhaps you mean that you can't empathize with it? In that case, I can understand that sentiment.
nope the reason my spelling is so horrible is not only because of horrible education system.
it's because my brain is completely shaped differently than the average human being.
I can only come to the most logical conclusion based on the evidence gathered and then attempt to improve efficiency.
it has been proven that removing religions from the factors improve efficiency and happiness of the population.
Therefore removing religion is completely justified and should be done as quickly as possible.
I understand that that people's emotions towards the religion are corrupting their view and they are unable to see the correct way to do things.
That's what happens when you believe in something without evidence.
you substitute evidence with emotion ego and attachments.
once I figure something out that I can solve I become bored.
now I'm trying to figure out the equation to cure people of religion is the only thing keeping me mildly entertain at the moment.
think of me as an advanced version of Spock.
Is English your second language? I'm just curious
Ragnarok.Vitaru
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 255
By Ragnarok.Vitaru 2014-09-23 16:46:03
What you are seeing of war in the world today is due to greed, thirst for power and god knows what, only the naive would think it has anything to do with any religion.
If you travel long enough you realize that the normal man wants his right protected and to live in peace.
The only thing that need to be taken down with Bazooka is a post like this. Greed on which side though? If you say only one, then you are deluding yourself.
greed for money. Thought it's obvious. Keep trolling.
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Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-09-23 16:46:46
The issue with wedding is because at the "origin" it was a religious thing, they should have renamed it when we separated church and state to make a difference between religious union and state/paper/official union pretty sure conservative would have accepted it if the name wasn't he same cause in their head wedding=religious act.
We did separate but equal in this country before, it was a *** shitshow. No one religion has dominion over the word married, you're free to turn away people who don't fit your cultures definition of marriage (a conservative christian church should be able to say no if they don't wanna marry you) and gay people getting married doesn't invalidate your Christian/Jew/Muslim/Shinto/Hindu wedding. Worry more about keeping your own marriage off the rocks rather than who's taking the plunge.
There is no 'origin'. Every pack of homo sapiens on this planet have had their individual definitions of marriage and theres room for plenty more. The apocalyptic tone of our monotheisms is a self-serving exercise.
Bahamut.Milamber
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-23 16:48:37
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »I may be critical of religion here on the interwebs and for good reason, I believe it's problematic in its current form and needs reforms to gel with modernity. However, I've come to understand that some people need religion and I have chosen to opt out for my personal reasons. Respect that and we can be bestest buddies ever... till you betray my trust and trigger my issues.
Having a religious system foisted on me by captors who destroyed my culture and replaced it with their own never sat right with me. The arbitrary nature of the 'good book' and its willingness to lapse into violent fits of death, rape, pillaging, brutal torture and other acts of human barbarity are the hallmarks of text written by man rather than anything approaching divinity.
The prescriptions on what to eat, who to marry/***, declaration of applicable taxes and all the other bureaucratic nonsense further lend themselves to humanity rather than some uber-powerful entity. In the infinite universe created by this being of awesome power and strength, everything stops to remind his messengers that besides physics (which he created) that taxes are the second most powerful force in all creation.
Believe it.
The issue with wedding is because at the "origin" it was a religious thing, they should have renamed it when we separated church and state to make a difference between religious union and state/paper/official union pretty sure conservative would have accepted it if the name wasn't he same cause in their head wedding=religious act. Yeah... no. It has also varied from culture to culture.
Now, if you want to say that Christian weddings have been religious things, then sure, that's true by definition. But weddings are certainly older than Christianity/Islam, and likely Judaism as well.
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Valefor.Sehachan
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-09-23 16:49:31
Boredom is an emotion bro.
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Bahamut.Milamber
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3691
By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-23 16:50:22
Asura.Refreshazure said: »Asura.Refreshazure said: »For you maybe you think with emotions and not logical thought.
emotions have no factor in my decisions only evidence and improving efficiency.
therefore faith is not compatible or understandable. Perhaps you mean that you can't empathize with it? In that case, I can understand that sentiment.
nope the reason my spelling is so horrible is not only because of horrible education system.
it's because my brain is completely shaped differently than the average human being.
I can only come to the most logical conclusion based on the evidence gathered and then attempt to improve efficiency.
it has been proven that removing religions from the factors improve efficiency and happiness of the population.
Therefore removing religion is completely justified and should be done as quickly as possible.
I understand that that people's emotions towards the religion are corrupting their view and they are unable to see the correct way to do things.
That's what happens when you believe in something without evidence.
you substitute evidence with emotion ego and attachments.
once I figure something out that I can solve I become bored.
now I'm trying to figure out the equation to cure people of religion is the only thing keeping me mildly entertain at the moment.
think of me as an advanced version of Spock.
I'm unfortunately reminded more of a combination of kooljack and jetakuu.
There is no question that many people have been killed by those who wish to convert others to their religion. It's not just Muslims killing Christians, it has happened for just about every religion out there.
Specifically about islam, though, I'm trying to understand more about what various religious writings have. From what I can find, there are statements from Muhammad that both dictate forced conversion as well as statements that dictate leaving others in peace.
For example, here's a statement that appears to be forcing conversion: Quote: Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
And here's one that says leave people alone: Quote: I shall exempt them from that which may disturb them; of the burdens which are paid by others as an oath of allegiance. They must not give anything of their income but that which pleases them—they must not be offended, or disturbed, or coerced or compelled. Their judges should not be changed or prevented from accomplishing their offices, nor the monks disturbed in exercising their religious order, or the people of seclusion be stopped from dwelling in their cells.
Are these really just contradictory messages? I know religious questions are effectively impossible to answer, so I'd like to phrase things this way: Are Muhammad's writings 100% for forced conversion, 100% against, or do they give conflicting advice?
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