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Does islam require forced conversions?
Valefor.Mithano
Serveur: Valefor
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Posts: 541
By Valefor.Mithano 2014-09-22 19:09:04
There is no question that many people have been killed by those who wish to convert others to their religion. It's not just Muslims killing Christians, it has happened for just about every religion out there.
Specifically about islam, though, I'm trying to understand more about what various religious writings have. From what I can find, there are statements from Muhammad that both dictate forced conversion as well as statements that dictate leaving others in peace.
For example, here's a statement that appears to be forcing conversion: Quote: Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
And here's one that says leave people alone: Quote: I shall exempt them from that which may disturb them; of the burdens which are paid by others as an oath of allegiance. They must not give anything of their income but that which pleases them—they must not be offended, or disturbed, or coerced or compelled. Their judges should not be changed or prevented from accomplishing their offices, nor the monks disturbed in exercising their religious order, or the people of seclusion be stopped from dwelling in their cells.
Are these really just contradictory messages? I know religious questions are effectively impossible to answer, so I'd like to phrase things this way: Are Muhammad's writings 100% for forced conversion, 100% against, or do they give conflicting advice?
By daoming 2014-09-22 19:41:27
Asura.Ccl
Serveur: Asura
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Posts: 1997
By Asura.Ccl 2014-09-22 19:41:55
I only know that a muslim can marry a non muslim and that person don't need to convert to islam.
There are prolly some context I guess but those sentences don't seems to come from the quran to me.
By Altimaomega 2014-09-22 19:44:42
By Kell 2014-09-22 20:10:53
^ If people can't for some reason understand the Festivus Pole's high strength to weight ratio, then they should be compelled to do so.
They can take any complaints up later, during the airing of grievances.
Valefor.Mithano
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By Valefor.Mithano 2014-09-22 20:17:07
Hah, love it!
I'm trying to at least help myself draw a line between people that are doing their own thing religion wise, and those who are following the teachings of whatever person they like the most.
Along the same lines, I know the Westboro folks have their own teachings - they don't use much of what Jesus is recorded as having said. I'm trying to understand if the ISIS/other folks are doing the same thing.
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Posts: 125
By Asura.Triffle 2014-09-22 20:57:35
All I know is my co-worker is trying to convert me. She gave me the Qu'ran to read thinking it will change my life. Still waiting on that to happen and apparently won't leave me alone even after I said I found Harry Potter to be a more convincing story.
Then again it's not just Muslims, though the Jehova's Witnesses apparently have upgrade to using phones to call people instead of going door to door.
TL;DR all religiously fanatical people are annoying, no matter which religion they come from.
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2014-09-22 21:09:31
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By cervelo84 2014-09-22 21:11:20
Mohammed was a military commander. If you read about his life you will find out about what type of man he was. I'm not here to argue but of course people will dispute history. Just like you have idiots say there was no holocaust.
He showed no mercy unlike his Allah that he later came to start preaching of.
By cervelo84 2014-09-22 21:24:57
The high Islamic congress of the Shiat approves of the authenticity of this film.
The Scholars and Historians of Islam approve of the authenticity of this film.
I already knew this friend. Why would they want what he really did conveyed. The truth being covered up as much as humanly possible is what must be done to preserve there belief and keep the hope in them that they will one day meet God.
Search your heart. Do you feel anger, sadness, confusion? I have peace. I have love. You only get love when you accept what our creator did for us. Became a man and died for us. Accept it. Peace will be yours also.
By fonewear 2014-09-22 22:00:19
I converted to Islam yesterday I had to jump off a 30 foot cliff on a tricycle.
Nevermind that was when I was pledging Sigma Pi.
I think to convert to Islam you have to eat a gyro on a Tuesday while watching CNN.
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By fonewear 2014-09-22 22:13:46
I do enjoy Ramadan I lost like 15 pounds last year !
Bismarck.Dubai
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Posts: 500
By Bismarck.Dubai 2014-09-22 22:23:03
In Islam it is forbidden to force anyone to convert into a Muslim whether he/she is your partner, neighbor, friend, or foe.
What you are hearing and seeing in the media is not 0.01% Islamic in anyway. On the contrary, everything that is happening at the moment in the middle east goes against all the commandments of Islam.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-22 22:24:48
In Islam it is forbidden to force anyone to convert into a Muslim whether he/she is your partner, neighbor, friend, or foe.
What you are hearing and seeing in the media is not 0.01% Islamic in anyway. On the contrary, everything that is happening at the moment in the middle east goes against all the commandments of Islam. no true Scotsman!
Bismarck.Dubai
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By Bismarck.Dubai 2014-09-22 22:24:51
Mohammed was a military commander. If you read about his life you will find out about what type of man he was. I'm not here to argue but of course people will dispute history. Just like you have idiots say there was no holocaust.
He showed no mercy unlike his Allah that he later came to start preaching of.
Which source of book have you actually come to read?
Valefor.Mithano
Serveur: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 541
By Valefor.Mithano 2014-09-23 01:22:24
In Islam it is forbidden to force anyone to convert into a Muslim whether he/she is your partner, neighbor, friend, or foe.
Fair enough - any idea where the quote is coming from then? As best I can tell, the top quote I had listed is from the Koran. I took that one from the wiki page (yeah, it's wiki, but it seemed reasonable).
Wiki conversion page
I've generally always heard that islam is pretty peaceful, and it's the extremists that aren't (just like most other religions, really). But the quotes above confuse the heck out of me! They seem very antagonistic, and the appear to be directly from his writings/speech.
Bismarck.Dubai
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 500
By Bismarck.Dubai 2014-09-23 01:54:24
In Islam it is forbidden to force anyone to convert into a Muslim whether he/she is your partner, neighbor, friend, or foe.
Fair enough - any idea where the quote is coming from then? As best I can tell, the top quote I had listed is from the Koran. I took that one from the wiki page (yeah, it's wiki, but it seemed reasonable).
Wiki conversion page
I've generally always heard that islam is pretty peaceful, and it's the extremists that aren't (just like most other religions, really). But the quotes above confuse the heck out of me! They seem very antagonistic, and the appear to be directly from his writings/speech.
In Islam it is forbidden to force anyone to convert into a Muslim whether he/she is your partner, neighbor, friend, or foe.
Fair enough - any idea where the quote is coming from then? As best I can tell, the top quote I had listed is from the Koran. I took that one from the wiki page (yeah, it's wiki, but it seemed reasonable).
Wiki conversion page
I've generally always heard that islam is pretty peaceful, and it's the extremists that aren't (just like most other religions, really). But the quotes above confuse the heck out of me! They seem very antagonistic, and the appear to be directly from his writings/speech.
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"
You can't force the world to convert to Islam, the only option Islam gives to Muslims is through education.
The killings and slaughtering of innocent people you see showing in the media are done by murderers and non-believers. Even extremists would not go beyond killing a soul.
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Bismarck.Dubai
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Posts: 500
By Bismarck.Dubai 2014-09-23 04:47:26
The high Islamic congress of the Shiat approves of the authenticity of this film.
The Scholars and Historians of Islam approve of the authenticity of this film.
I already knew this friend. Why would they want what he really did conveyed. The truth being covered up as much as humanly possible is what must be done to preserve there belief and keep the hope in them that they will one day meet God.
Search your heart. Do you feel anger, sadness, confusion? I have peace. I have love. You only get love when you accept what our creator did for us. Became a man and died for us. Accept it. Peace will be yours also.
So if the creator did become mortal and transformed into a man and died. Then who would be watching over the universe?
Another curious question come to mind: For a god who would die could not possibly be a "God". Since we all know that the attributes of God would be omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence.
So my question to you is, how could God die when he is supposed to be immortal or someone/something that would live forever?
Lakshmi.Zerowone
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Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-09-23 07:03:41
I don't see what the big deal is. Sounds like some people haven't read the old testament or the new testament.
For the curious read Exodus 20:22, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB and Luke 19:27
All three religions of Abraham have a kill non believers policy. Don't get fooled by the hype.
By Blazed1979 2014-09-23 09:16:38
What Dubai said sums it up pretty much. "No Compulsion". This is such a well known verse from the Noble Quran, that it is said often in society. "La Ikrahu fe el deen".
Compulsion to become Muslim is at odds with the actual literal meaning of "Islam" and "Muslim".
It is true that the only word available in English is "Submission" or is the most accurate one, but it is not actually accurate enough.
Arabic is a different language. "Eslem" which means "He submitted" does not mean "submitted out of compulsion" or "gave into terms against his will" or "gave up". That would be "Esteslem".
"Eslem" the actual submission to God and his religion means he did so willingly, knowingly, accepted, from his own free will.
We in the Muslim world are more at odds with entities such as ISIS than the west is. They've hijacked our religion for their own political goals. Its not the first time such entities have appeared and we are fully aware of their danger.
The UAE and several other Arab Muslim Nations have signed up to provide military, financial or poltical support in the fight against ISIS.
Al Qaeda succeeded in their mission to drive a wedge between us and the west unfortunately. How we rectify the matter does not involved us following in their footsteps of ignorance and hate towards one another for no apparent reason.
Its true we have challenges and disagreements, especially on Palestine and Israel. But rather than isolating those issues to their own boundries, we're allowing segments from both parts of the world to become polarized.
There is no compulsion in Islam. What contradicts the Noble Quran is tossed to the garbage.
By Ramyrez 2014-09-23 09:27:26
Clearly the answer is to cast aside other texts and bring about the end of times by following the writings found in the Necronomicon.
Bismarck.Dubai
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Posts: 500
By Bismarck.Dubai 2014-09-23 09:36:30
Asura.Refreshazure said: »Does the sun come up tomorrow?
Wow double contradictions in Scripture seems Allah Can't make up his mind as much as Yahweh.
Even someone with an armchair knowledge of Islam knows that it started as a war like religion in order to spread.
The Sunni Vs Shiite Conflict was originally a fight over who would control the Islamic Army's next.
Muhammad formed an army in order to spread his new religion there is more than enough historical evidence of this.
And no Islam doesn't require forced conversions in the Middle East you have every right to choose to be killed.
Quote: Search your heart. Do you feel anger, sadness, confusion? I have peace. I have love. You only get love when you accept what our creator did for us. Became a man and died for us. Accept it. Peace will be yours also.
Hey do you suffer from exploitable emotions such as anger, sadness, confusion well join Christianity so you can be told what to do and have the divine being of the universe Yahweh just happen to agree with every opinion you have Because coincidentally God agrees with everything you do.
everyone should actually watch this it is both enlightening and hilarious funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0A_iF1B3k0
I will start contradicting my belief's in Islam once you have solid evidence in the Quran. And this time, try to provide complete verses and the name of the Chapter and not quote out of context as everyone seems to do.
And about your later sentence, about Islam spreading by the sword.
Did you know in all 114 chapter's of the Quran there is not 1 word that says "sword"? So please before attacking someone or something provide your evidence and we can debate. If you, then people here will think you are stupid.
Finally, about your link. Go ask a true Muslim about what they think/know about God. I'm assure you will find all our answers to be the same.
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Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 09:42:05
And this time, try to provide complete verses and the name of the Chapter and not quote out of context as everyone seems to do. When you disagree with everyone, it's not because we, as you put it, "quote out of context" but because your head is buried under the sand when anyone is critical against your faith.
Don't feel too bad, there are many people just like you, not only who believe in Islam, but all other religions also.
I just hope you realize Islam's true purpose before it's too late.
There is no question that many people have been killed by those who wish to convert others to their religion. It's not just Muslims killing Christians, it has happened for just about every religion out there.
Specifically about islam, though, I'm trying to understand more about what various religious writings have. From what I can find, there are statements from Muhammad that both dictate forced conversion as well as statements that dictate leaving others in peace.
For example, here's a statement that appears to be forcing conversion: Quote: Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
And here's one that says leave people alone: Quote: I shall exempt them from that which may disturb them; of the burdens which are paid by others as an oath of allegiance. They must not give anything of their income but that which pleases them—they must not be offended, or disturbed, or coerced or compelled. Their judges should not be changed or prevented from accomplishing their offices, nor the monks disturbed in exercising their religious order, or the people of seclusion be stopped from dwelling in their cells.
Are these really just contradictory messages? I know religious questions are effectively impossible to answer, so I'd like to phrase things this way: Are Muhammad's writings 100% for forced conversion, 100% against, or do they give conflicting advice?
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