The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-24 15:32:03
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Afania said: »
Look, I don't want to sound like a cocky *** but if anytime we are discussing optimal setup and all the argument you ever use is "if you don't do it my way then you suck horribly", at least kill faster yourself THEN prove you are right.

Cause you do suck badly, every month or two you try to say dumb ***and get shutdown. After the first four or five times explaining things in great detail I just gave up and now call you out on the stupidity so it doesn't infect others.

In this case your idea is dumb because of 3s minimum wait time on SC's linking. A fully powered DD is going to have a WS cycle time of 4~5s average, a great DD will have it on the lower end. Two DD's going, with one being a COR, is going to have the timers line pretty well, three is going to end up with there being less then 2s in between WS's. You essentially overwrite each others properties before they can link.

Now here is where you suck.

If your not a very good DD, your cycle time is going to be north of 5s which puts you into the territory where your WSing slow enough to link. Thus if your seeing any benefit from SC's with 3 ppl WSing, it's cause they WS slowly.

Now comes the part where you go "nuh uhh cause reasons and friendship"
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By Afania 2018-06-24 15:43:32
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Cause you do suck badly, every month or two you try to say dumb ***and get shutdown. After the first four or five times explaining things in great detail I just gave up and now call you out on the stupidity so it doesn't infect others.

In this case your idea is dumb because of 3s minimum wait time on SC's linking. A fully powered DD is going to have a WS cycle time of 4~5s average, a great DD will have it on the lower end. Two DD's going, with one being a COR, is going to have the timers line pretty well, three is going to end up with there being less then 2s in between WS's. You essentially overwrite each others properties before they can link.

Now here is where you suck.

If your not a very good DD, your cycle time is going to be north of 5s which puts you into the territory where your WSing slow enough to link. Thus if your seeing any benefit from SC's with 3 ppl WSing, it's cause they WS slowly.

Now comes the part where you go "nuh uhh cause reasons and friendship"

If you keep your scoreboard up, you would totally see the SC% which isn't 0. Try to ask anyone who uses scoreboard, they will tell you sc % is bigger than 0 unless they use wrong ws.

So saying sc doesn't happen with 3 dd is completely false.

But yeah, keep using the same old "if you dare to say I'm wrong then you suck" or "power of friendship" kind of argument, as if that kind of argument can convince anyone.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Cause you do suck badly, every month or two you try to say dumb ***and get shutdown.


Just because others don't want to waste time going on and on with you, doesn't mean they are wrong. Most time I just go "Saevel is wrong again" then move on.
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By Afania 2018-06-24 16:13:14
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Cropped scoreboard as proof that sc happens, 4 DD in pt all spams ws, with one of them using a ws that won't sc with the rest. Only used scoreboard with you in it so "if you see sc then you ws too slow and you suck" kind of argument can't be used.





Despite there are 4 people with one of them uses ws that interrupts everything and not linking, it's still painfully obvious that sc has significant amount of contribution (16% to 18% toward the end). Now change that to 3 DD and all use appropriate ws, the dmg will only be even more meaningful.

Now unless you have other proof that's more than "if you dare to disagree with me then you suck" kind of argument, any reader with the ability to read info In the ss can see you are the clearly one that's wrong.
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2018-06-24 16:43:20
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I mean, it was an alliance zerg against Kouryu and literally dozens of skill chains went off during it.

But feel free to mute me. I'll still continue to call you out on ***.

Like your condescending attitude towards me in regards making coordinated skill chains until you hopped on the Chango train within the last year-ish. And now you can't stop talking about the virtues of a weapon skills ability to skill chain.
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By Afania 2018-06-24 18:06:03
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Sylph.Cherche said: »
I mean, it was an alliance zerg against Kouryu and literally dozens of skill chains went off during it.

But feel free to mute me. I'll still continue to call you out on ***.

Like your condescending attitude towards me in regards making coordinated skill chains until you hopped on the Chango train within the last year-ish. And now you can't stop talking about the virtues of a weapon skills ability to skill chain.

I honestly don't give a damn if people choose inferior DD playstyle and kill slower. If someone clear D in 5 min and tell me "you suck horribly and doing wrong" when I clear VD in less than 4 min in the same fight, I would just laugh and walk away.

But this is public forum and any misinformation spread quickly that it quickly turn into community bias that rejects people that actually doing right. THAT is the problem.

People who ask questions here just want a fast and instant answer like "X weapon or playstyle is better weapon than Y". In reality it's usually "In A situation, X is better than Y. In B situation, Y is better". And bold statements without proof like "X is better than Y, Y is not remotely close" or "X is better than Y, if you use Y you suck horribly" is extremely detrimental to the community.

Because It will lead to clueless pt lead rejecting otherwise superior playstyle or refuse to try them because they have this "X is better, Y is horrible" idea in their head, thanks to certain forum opinion. People who actually work hard to perform better gets punished in the end.

My point? Ask for forum advice, but take it with grain of salt, not as holy Bible and bash whoever want to try different playstyle in game. Just because one person on the forum said X is better than Y, doesn't mean its fact. If you want to prove certain style or weapon is superior, let evidence speaks for themselves, like the screenshots above.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-24 19:56:13
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And problem solved.
 
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 Asura.Yso
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By Asura.Yso 2018-06-26 05:50:50
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https://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/359681

Came up to 95% without making extreme sacrifices. With AF+3 legs this set should amount to 100% DA when including merits, gift and trait.

This is not a set I actually use, just through it together from memory.
 
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-26 07:40:42
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Flamma +2 Head > Boii Mask +1.
Hetorai Ring ~= Petrov Ring (Store TP is a thing though)

Otherwise it's standard MA set.

Montante +1 Set - 3% QA 12% TA 94% DA

ItemSet 353033

https://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/353033



Now once Empy +3 comes out all bets are off since how knows how bad *** Boii Mark +3 will end up.
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2018-06-26 12:15:40
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Could of swore awhile back, I read that Change was starting to come close to a GS set up? I could be mistaken.i need to reread this thread.

It was regarding all of the WSDMG gear we have access to now. I've been seeing some really nice numbers on Upheaval. Being able to Full/Armor break is a huge plus too.

With the TP Bonus/Moonshade/Warcry, +49 WSDMG, and the +.02 fTP boost from fotia; Upheavals have been pretty impressive. Still might be slightly inferior to GS but it has more utility(as long as you don't need shockwave)

It seems like each major update we get gear that boosts Upheaval, while Reso is still stuck with Argosy+1/Flamma/AF+3


Thoughts?

Speaking of reforged Boii gear. I hope the hands or legs get WSDMG+10
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By Kodaijin 2018-06-26 12:31:58
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I know these questions were kinda sorta answered over the course of the argument but I wanted to clarify for anyone who still may be wondering.

As far as REMA Great Axes are concerned:

Chango - Top performer in most situations and shines during SCs for maximum damage. (I use it 99% of the time)

Bravura - Great hybrid piece for the relic aftermath. Also a nice ACC buff. (I use it when popping NMs with adds... able to have a nice 20% DT and cleave the adds/pets quickly and more safely)

Ukonvasara- Mostly use it for when amnesia is a threat. It does shine when AM3 is up but other options are better. This weapon is not weak at all, Just not as good or as useful as Chango and Bravura.

Conqueror - Mostly a lockstyle and trophy or berserk macro piece (if you can find a decent time to swap it in losing TP or any Aftermaths still up for your primary weapon). It is a helluva lot of fun and not weak but doesnt shine as much due to all of the multi attack war gets. I've tried to play with sets using less gear multi-attack and stacking more attack and acc but it still fell short. Maybe in the future it will shine... who knows.

How does Great Sword compare to great axe? I am not going to get into the "which GS to use" convo. Thats already been fleshed out in previous pages. (I personally only use Ragnarok because I will only use GS very rarely and against things where ACC is critical . Plus, inventory space is more valuable than any other GS option for me personally) But when do you use GS over GA?
I personally look at the group I am in and determine if the group will benefit more from GS or GA. For example, smaller groups benefit more from GA...(again, Chango 99% of the time). The SC damage is huge. Larger groups full of others using weaponskills that dont work so well with GA, I switch to GS. Is the mob resistant to SC damage or does SC damage level the mob up? Great sword. Are you maxed on buffs and with a bunch of other GS wars? use GS. However, (and again, for me personally) I am 99% equipping Chango over all other options including GS.

If youre a war wondering which ultimate weapon to go for first and you have the ability or the group to get any of the weapons, get Chango. Get the others for situational use and trophy collections. None are weak but we are nitpicking here... its what we do.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-26 13:39:04
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Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
With the TP Bonus/Moonshade/Warcry, +49 WSDMG, and the +.02 fTP boost from fotia; Upheavals have been pretty impressive. Still might be slightly inferior to GS but it has more utility(as long as you don't need shockwave)

Those all boost Resolution more then Upheaval, it has better TP scaling and fTP transfers to all hits. The +WSD on Upheaval comes into effect around 2K TP which is where Chango users will normally be at anyway due to Over Tping on MA procs. WAR's natural MA and Reso's STR mod already put it at the top for pure DPS vomit.

That being said, as Koda pointed out if you have Chango and play in smaller groups your almost always going to be using it because some coordination goes a long ways instead of mindlessly smashing the WS button.

As for GS's, outside escha Montante +1, inside escha with decent vorseals it's Raetic (+1). Those things outperform Rag to such a degree it's just feels wrong. Rag's shitty delay strikes again.

Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
It seems like each major update we get gear that boosts Upheaval, while Reso is still stuck with Argosy+1/Flamma/AF+3

Yes this has been SE's answer to balance issues, they are slowly addressing things with gear upgrades instead of nerfing / buffing stuff directly. Previously multi-hit fTP transfer WS's were so hilariously ahead of everything else that why even bother. Now they have created situations where the single hit WS's result in more total damage, and that's never a bad thing. For other jobs it's a bit more even but WAR gets such extreme amounts of natural MA that multi-hit transfer fTP WS's get a leg up so to speak. Resolution's 5 hits turns into about 6.5 hits when used by a WAR.

And remember HQ Argosy is largely broke as ***. Well "broke" in the sense that it's purpose made for strong multi-hit STR based WS's. Things like INT, MND, CHR, AGI, VIT, MEVD, MDB are such are meaningless in a WS that doesn't use them and instead use's large amounts of STR, DEX, Attack, Accuracy, Store TP and Multi-Attack.
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By Leviathan.Andret 2018-06-26 14:43:59
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So his +49 wsd affects resolution just as well as upheaval?
 
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By Sockfoot 2018-06-26 15:07:03
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Just for clarification in regards to stat priority for Upheaval, are we swapping to WSD when effective TP > 2000 (Warcry, TP Bonus, etc added in), or literally just TP > 2000 (and less than 3k once all bonuses accounted for)? If the former, is it really worth making a MA cape for a 250 TP window (Chango + Moonshade)?

Also, cape for Upheaval (WSD) still VIT+20, ACC+30, ATK+20, WSD+10% ?
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-26 15:13:50
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Leviathan.Andret said: »
So his +49 wsd affects resolution just as well as upheaval?

First hit yes but all the other stuff he mentioned effects Reso more due to better TP scaling / fTP transfer. And we've already had WSD available to us since Reisenjimma was created, SE just gave us about 26 more of it. Upheaval didn't suddenly start doing 50% more damage in the last year.

The cool thing about Upheaval, and by extension Great Axe, is that it's play style is fundamentally different then Great Sword Resolution. With GS Reso your wanting to fire off WS's as soon as possible, so their 1K Post-TP Bonus values are extremely important. Quantity has a quality all it's own, so to speak. With GAXE, especially Chango, you get so much more from linking it then just spamming and with a buffed highly tuned build your going to end up with TP faster then the SC window opens, unless your profoundly unlucky. This results in you waiting an attack round and frequently having 1500+ TP which not only powers up the closing WS but also the closing SC.

This key difference is why comparing them directly to each other is dumb. If your groups situation is such that you can't coordinate powerful SC's then pull out a Montante or Raetic and start bashing stuff. If you can coordinate a SC then by all means please do, especially since COR and WAR blend together so well. A max powered Savage Blade closing a tier 2 Light followed by a max powered Upheaval closing a tier 3 Radiance is a thing of beauty.
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2018-06-26 15:14:04
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
With the TP Bonus/Moonshade/Warcry, +49 WSDMG, and the +.02 fTP boost from fotia; Upheavals have been pretty impressive. Still might be slightly inferior to GS but it has more utility(as long as you don't need shockwave)

Those all boost Resolution more then Upheaval, it has better TP scaling and fTP transfers to all hits. The +WSD on Upheaval comes into effect around 2K TP which is where Chango users will normally be at anyway due to Over Tping on MA procs. WAR's natural MA and Reso's STR mod already put it at the top for pure DPS vomit.

That being said, as Koda pointed out if you have Chango and play in smaller groups your almost always going to be using it because some coordination goes a long ways instead of mindlessly smashing the WS button.

As for GS's, outside escha Montante +1, inside escha with decent vorseals it's Raetic (+1). Those things outperform Rag to such a degree it's just feels wrong. Rag's shitty delay strikes again.

Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
It seems like each major update we get gear that boosts Upheaval, while Reso is still stuck with Argosy+1/Flamma/AF+3

Yes this has been SE's answer to balance issues, they are slowly addressing things with gear upgrades instead of nerfing / buffing stuff directly. Previously multi-hit fTP transfer WS's were so hilariously ahead of everything else that why even bother. Now they have created situations where the single hit WS's result in more total damage, and that's never a bad thing. For other jobs it's a bit more even but WAR gets such extreme amounts of natural MA that multi-hit transfer fTP WS's get a leg up so to speak. Resolution's 5 hits turns into about 6.5 hits when used by a WAR.

And remember HQ Argosy is largely broke as ***. Well "broke" in the sense that it's purpose made for strong multi-hit STR based WS's. Things like INT, MND, CHR, AGI, VIT, MEVD, MDB are such are meaningless in a WS that doesn't use them and instead use's large amounts of STR, DEX, Attack, Accuracy, Store TP and Multi-Attack.


I dumped gil into the Raetic+1 and I feel like I barely get to use it anymore sadly. And you are definitely right about the smaller group thing.


Im curious about the new weapons though. I believe their intent is to buff RMEA down the road. I'm wondering where this will put Rag.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-26 15:19:51
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Sockfoot said: »
Just for clarification in regards to stat priority for Upheaval, are we swapping to WSD when effective TP > 2000 (Warcry, TP Bonus, etc added in), or literally just TP > 2000 (and less than 3k once all bonuses accounted for)? If the former, is it really worth making a MA cape for a 250 TP window (Chango + Moonshade)?

Also, cape for Upheaval (WSD) still VIT+20, ACC+30, ATK+20, WSD+10% ?

Once at 2K or beyond you swap to WSD over MA. Note this isn't a hard rule because the value of each WSD piece will be relative to what else is available in that slot and is on a sliding scale. Perfect optimization would require half a dozen sets at 200TP intervals, that's an *** ton of work and so we use a "rule of thumb" around 2K.

Buffed Chango users will rarely be under 2K WS TP, it happens sometimes but not that often cause WAR MA's so damn often and Chango's strengths lead to waiting an extra attack round. It's mostly for non-Chango setups like a Bravura.

I use VIT +30 Acc/Atk +20 WSD +10% for Upheaval and call it a day since I'm almost always using Chango.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-26 15:24:51
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Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
I dumped gil into the Raetic+1 and I feel like I barely get to use it anymore sadly. And you are definitely right about the smaller group thing.


Im curious about the new weapons though. I believe their intent is to buff RMEA down the road. I'm wondering where this will put Rag.

Yeah people get too hung up over "one build to rule them all, that's totally against the current Meta and makes me special". Different situations call for different weapons and is what makes WAR so damn fun to play. WAR could be dual wielding bear steins and would still find a way to deal lots of damage in some situation somewhere.

Rag hasn't been "the best" for awhile now, it's niche is as a super accurate weapon and in that regard it rules. It also has some pretty sweet melee damage, just it's low delay makes it annoying to make 5-hits with and two other options are just super sexy. I still occasionally pull it out, whenever a fight has an annoying -200 stat drain or mega blind / flash ***. Like everything else with WAR it's a situational tool. Still think WAR should of been on Tri-edge.
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By Leviathan.Andret 2018-06-26 19:38:41
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Does anyone have a MAB set for War for cases needing magic WS?
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2018-06-26 20:08:18
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
I dumped gil into the Raetic+1 and I feel like I barely get to use it anymore sadly. And you are definitely right about the smaller group thing.


Im curious about the new weapons though. I believe their intent is to buff RMEA down the road. I'm wondering where this will put Rag.

Yeah people get too hung up over "one build to rule them all, that's totally against the current Meta and makes me special". Different situations call for different weapons and is what makes WAR so damn fun to play. WAR could be dual wielding bear steins and would still find a way to deal lots of damage in some situation somewhere.

Rag hasn't been "the best" for awhile now, it's niche is as a super accurate weapon and in that regard it rules. It also has some pretty sweet melee damage, just it's low delay makes it annoying to make 5-hits with and two other options are just super sexy. I still occasionally pull it out, whenever a fight has an annoying -200 stat drain or mega blind / flash ***. Like everything else with WAR it's a situational tool. Still think WAR should of been on Tri-edge.

The only thing I use Ragnarok for these days is the macc. Shockwave with Rag + 5/5 Flamma+2(and the ring) is pretty damn nice. It lets you solo some of those Kindred Crest Fights on D/VD for Rem Tales or whatever.


Leviathan.Andret said: »
Does anyone have a MAB set for War for cases needing magic WS?


It isn't optimal, and I was too lazy to make an extra cape.
Seething Bomblet is also very nice.
{
ammo="Knobkierrie",
head={ name="Odyssean Helm", augments={'Mag. Acc.+17 "Mag.Atk.Bns."+17','STR+4','Mag. Acc.+13','"Mag.Atk.Bns."+13',}},
body={ name="Odyss. Chestplate", augments={'"Mag.Atk.Bns."+20','VIT+8','Mag. Acc.+17 "Mag.Atk.Bns."+17',}},
hands={ name="Odyssean Gauntlets", augments={'VIT+3','INT+4','Weapon skill damage +4%','Accuracy+18 Attack+18','Mag. Acc.+19 "Mag.Atk.Bns."+19',}},
legs={ name="Eschite Cuisses", augments={'"Mag.Atk.Bns."+25','"Conserve MP"+6','"Fast Cast"+5',}},
feet={ name="Founder's Greaves", augments={'VIT+10','Accuracy+15','"Mag.Atk.Bns."+15','Mag. Evasion+15',}},
neck="Fotia Gorget",
waist="Fotia Belt",
left_ear="Friomisi Earring",
right_ear={ name="Moonshade Earring", augments={'Accuracy+4','TP Bonus +25',}},
left_ring="Acumen Ring",
right_ring="Arvina Ringlet +1",
back={ name="Cichol's Mantle", augments={'STR+20','Accuracy+20 Attack+20','Weapon skill damage +10%',}},
}


Swap in Pixie+1 for Cataclysm/Sanguine Blade

I prefer Fotias over other pieces for the TP Return Procs. The easy way to get a matk set is to just do SR for founders.
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By Leviathan.Andret 2018-06-27 04:54:23
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Have anyone tried to duo or 2box SR as War+something before? Any advice you can give?
 
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 Asura.Arico
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By Asura.Arico 2018-07-01 00:19:02
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Any obvious improvements to be made? I feel like my current set is BIS. Maybe replace TP neck?

ItemSet 333087

ItemSet 359788
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By olson2189 2018-07-01 00:55:48
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Does anyone have a Black Halo BiS set they can share? Not quite sure how to approach gearing for it as a WAR. Also, would Judgment be better for WAR for just pure WS spamming with club?
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By Siren.Kyte 2018-07-01 00:59:26
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They're pretty much the same as Savage Blade. Judgment is the better of the two for pure damage. Hexa Strike is also something to think about if doing SCs.
 
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 Asura.Yso
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By Asura.Yso 2018-07-01 04:07:39
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DirectX said: »
Why do people use Ody over Val legs? 3% DA beats 2%?

Perhaps for the STP+5?
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