The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-07 22:10:24
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Lakshmi.Likos said: »
I see the talk has shifted to Valorous mail vs relic body +3.

I have nearly all the mats for Relic +3, but I'm wondering if it beats my valorous mail for low acc situations. It has +2 QA and +6 ACC. I know that's far from perfect, (have given up +5DA augs because the rest of the stats were negligible) but I don't know the math in terms of how much QA vs DA vs TA. No luck yet getting Dagon to drop.

1 TA = 2 DA
1 QA = 3 DA

It gets more complicated when you stack ridiculous amounts but that's a good estimation.

Valorous with 7 DA and 3 Store TP would beat Relic +3 with 7 DA. Relic +3 is more for high(er) acc situations, so I've been thinking of putting it on my Montante +1 set because that tends to be my lowest acc build.
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By olson2189 2018-06-07 23:37:32
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Asura.Saevel said: »
The amount of WSD available doesn't determine the inflection point but the relative damage difference between the first hit and the rest.

But the relative difference between the first hit and the rest partially depends on the amount of WSD available, no?

Player A's WSD set is poop and has +3% WSD. Player B's WSD set has +50%. Is the inflection point the same for both players?
 Asura.Jteken
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By Asura.Jteken 2018-06-08 02:12:06
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I've been playing around with Conqueror and self chaining lately, while I like the Upheaval numbers I'm a bit disapointed with King's justice.
I have been building it like Resolution , should it be more like Upheaval ? (swap VIT for STR of course).
I fail to see recent KJ set.

Thanks again ^_-
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By Asura.Brennski 2018-06-08 03:50:29
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Generally like Upheaval you need 2 sets for KJs.

One below 2k TP which is using more STR/Acc/Multi hit.

One above 2k Focusing more on WSD/Acc/STR like Upheaval.

Below 2k TP Set:
Code
sets.KingsJusticeA = {ammo="Seething bomblet +1",
			    head="Flam. Zucchetto +2",neck="Fotia gorget",ear1="Brutal earring",ear2="Moonshade earring",
			 	body="Argosy Hauberk +1",hands="Argosy mufflers +1",ring1="Niqmaddu ring",ring2="Regal ring",
			   	back=DA_Back,waist="Grunfeld rope",legs="Argosy breeches +1",feet="Flam. Gambieras +2"}


Above 2k set:
Code
sets.KingsJusticeB = {ammo="Knobkierrie",
			    head=WSD_Head,neck="Fotia gorget",ear1="Ishvara earring",ear2="Moonshade earring",
			 	body="Pummeler's lorica +3",hands="Argosy mufflers +1",ring1="Niqmaddu ring",ring2="Regal ring",
			   	back=STR_Back,waist="Grunfeld rope",legs="Argosy breeches +1",feet="Sulevia's leggings +2"}


For a general example, not sure these are BiS in all places and some improvements could be made.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-08 06:21:00
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olson2189 said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
The amount of WSD available doesn't determine the inflection point but the relative damage difference between the first hit and the rest.

But the relative difference between the first hit and the rest partially depends on the amount of WSD available, no?

Player A's WSD set is poop and has +3% WSD. Player B's WSD set has +50%. Is the inflection point the same for both players?

Yes it's the same.

At computer so I can elaborate.

The "inflection point" is the point at which WSD overpowers Multi-Attack and that point is when the component that WSD effects, the first hit, deals the majority of the damage. That happens around 2000TP for Upheaval as that's when it's first hit is 3.5 fTP and the additional hits make up 3~4 fTP worth of damage.
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By Asura.Jteken 2018-06-08 07:43:46
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Asura.Brennski said: »
Generally like Upheaval you need 2 sets for KJs.

One below 2k TP which is using more STR/Acc/Multi hit.

One above 2k Focusing more on WSD/Acc/STR like Upheaval.

Got it thanks, I forgot to mention the 2k+ ones were barely higher than the 1k. Your reply covered this.
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By BlaTheTaru 2018-06-14 20:35:00
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Can someone share an up to date Cloudsplitter set with a poor taru?
 
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By 2018-06-15 02:41:38
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By Fendarin007 2018-06-15 04:22:17
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A few pages back saevel shows the method to work out any xhit, it’s very simple to do yourself, also I’m looking for post about stp vs DA if anyone can point me in the right direct that would be great. It’s more for my drk tbh I see a lot of drks gearing towards multi attack set instead of stp sets these days. dropping a hit (5 to 6 hit)does not make sence to me as drk for a war it makes more sence because u can hit 100%da quite easy. I tend to prioritise haste > acc > xhit then multi hit is that an old fashioned way? Sorry on my phone at work hope it makes sence
 
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By 2018-06-15 06:19:23
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By Fendarin007 2018-06-15 07:25:26
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It’s the same formula and It all depends how much stp u have in your ws too, I need lot more than that I need 74 so /sam it’s 59 with gs for me once I get back il repost the formula Seavel posted
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-15 07:36:00
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Which GS is the question. TP gained is based on delay and they all have different delays.
 
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-15 08:42:57
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Now which WS are you using and how much Store TP is present in that WS?

My current Chango TP set has
Sub = 15 Store TP, Always on
Weapon = 10 Store TP, Always on
Gear = 21 Store TP, only during TP

That's 46 Store TP on a 480 Delay weapon for 134 TP per swing * 1.46 = 195 TP per hit. Need 220 back from WS and I easily get that.

When I get home I can look at my WS sets and add up the Store TP, remember you get 25 essentially free.

For a pure 5-hit you would need 200/134 = 50 Store TP and 25 is free, so that's just 25 in gear which is just 4 more then I got. Something as simple as be going to HQ Emicho Body + Hands (DA+9 Store TP +7) vs Valorous + Sulvia's (DA+13 Store TP +3) would fix that, or switching in Telos earring (DA +1 Store TP +5) over Brutal (DA+5 Store TP +1) or even switching around the neck slot.

Stop using online calculators their almost always wrong because the creators never bothered to keep them up to date. This is such a simple process that a highschool drop out could do it. Look up the weapons TP per hit on BGWiki, drop any decimals because that's what this game does. Then do Start -> Run -> calc and put in 200/<TP of Weapon> to get the amount of Store TP needed for a pure build.
 
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By 2018-06-15 09:30:44
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-15 09:35:40
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It's 134 + 10 x number of extra hits so not that hard to reach higher numbers. I based it on KJ actually since that's my lowest TP return WS in the sequence. The difference behind what I'm using and a pure 5-hit is 4 store TP, so not that hard to convert between them.
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-15 20:50:09
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Ok looked at my sets and here is what I got

For TP 49 Total Store TP

For WS it's 30 Total Store TP.

At 134 Base TP we geto

134 + 30 = 164 * 1.30 = 213 Return
134 + 20 = 154 * 1.30 = 200 Return

134 * 1.49 = 199 TP per hit.

So if I get 4 hits on Upheaval then I'm slightly over, if I get 3 then I'm 4 TP short, but if I take any damage then I'm over. Also if proc a DA (two rolls of 35% means 57.7% chance) then that can alleviate a missed hit which happens about 19% of the time. And Samurai's Roll almost certainly push's you past the next tier unless the COR really really sucks.

So if someone wants to be safe they can add one more Store TP, though I couldn't find an easy way to put just one in, the smallest unit I could find was 4 and only in exchange for 4 DA or 2 TA/1% Crit.
 
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By 2018-06-16 02:36:35
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-16 04:21:56
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DirectX said: »
Under Samurai roll is Valorous Mail with DA (not QA from DM) any better in terms of TP build speed than Agoge Lorica +3?

Why on earth wouldn't it be .....

Samurai's Roll doesn't delete Store TP from gear... and 0.1 > 0.0
 
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By 2018-06-16 06:38:29
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-16 11:28:23
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DirectX said: »
I am asking in terms of how long it takes to build 1000 TP only. The 3 STP is irrelevant with Samurai Roll in terms of building 1000TP unless it magically took you down to a 3 hit or something.

0.1 > 0.0

Relic Body has 7 DA
Aug Val Body has 7 DA (2+5) and 3 Store TP

There is no condition where Aug Val isn't better then Relic Body. And TP past 1000 just makes your next WS stronger.

Samurai Roll does not delete Store TP, it all stacks and more is better then less. The percentage may be less but that doesn't change the fact that it's still better. And anything you would swap out Ginsen for Yetshila +1 if you felt the Store TP wasn't needed. As for that 3 Store TP, it's needed far more often then you think.

Chango 4-hit = 87 Store Tp needed
Chango 5-hit = 49/59 Store TP needed (WS dependent)

That means you need 37~38 from SAM's Roll. With the +5 Ring you can't have anything less then 18 as a base roll so 8 is the lowest roll acceptable. Doesn't happen that often but I've seen shitty situations where they land on a 7 or 8 and Fold / Snake Eye / Random deal is down. At +7 roll it doesn't matter because anything above a 4 works. This is also why we don't try to push for a natural 4-hit, the requirements to go from 4 to 3 is pretty ridiculous (150 Store TP needed) and doesn't get you there any faster.
 
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By 2018-06-16 11:37:39
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-16 12:46:53
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DirectX said: »
It does also have 40-60 more Attack than VMail too but I know that is little to damage increase.

DRK and WAR are the two highest attack jobs in the game

Smite = +19.9% Attack
Berserk = +35% Attack
Warcry = +11.5% Attack along with 700 TP Bonus

WAR's are usually accompanied with support jobs, Resolution is the only time where I'm really worried about capping attack cause -15% sneaks up on you.

DirectX said: »
How much QA beats 5 DA? 3?
It's simple if you think about what those mean.
1 DA = +1 Attack
1 TA = +2 Attack
1 QA = +3 Attack

As DA is the lowest value and is also fixed at 1.0 you can use it as a comparison. 1 TA = 2 DA, 1 QA = 3 DA. Now this isn't entirely true once you start stacking really high values cause some interesting things start happening, but for these discussions that's a good rule of thumb.

Relic +3 body is a decent accuracy swap.
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By Leviathan.Andret 2018-06-16 15:23:31
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Since I don't really know the relationship between the DA, TA and QA, I only know QA procs before TA and TA procs before DA and none of them can proc on each other. I assume that the following logic is correct:

If I have 100 DA then I will proc DA 100% of the time.

I would get 200 attacks in 100 rounds.

If I replace 10 DA of 100 DA for 10 TA then I will have 90DA and 10TA. I will proc TA 10% of the time, proc DA 81% of the time and 9% of the time I won't get any proc.

I would get 30+162+9 = 201 attacks in 100 rounds.
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-16 18:46:32
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Like I said

Asura.Saevel said: »
Now this isn't entirely true once you start stacking really high values cause some interesting things start happening, but for these discussions that's a good rule of thumb.

Starting at 0 MA

+10 DA = 1.10 Average attacks per round
+5 TA = 1.10 Average attacks per round

+100 DA = 2.0 Average attacks per round
+50 TA = 2.0 Average attacks per round

But then start mixing them and diminishing returns hits you hard. The final number that matters is average attacks per round.
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By Leviathan.Andret 2018-06-16 19:11:19
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Did some Excel calculations. An average War can expect to have about 50-70DA. Trait 33, cape 10, belt 8, other gears 20+

Assuming 0 TA or QA native.

At 60 DA, every 5 TA is roughly 7 DA. Every 5 QA is roughly 12 DA.

At 80 DA, every 5 TA is roughly 6 DA. Every 5 QA is roughly 11 DA.

At 90 DA, every 5 TA is only 5.5 DA. Every 5 QA is about 10.5 DA.
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-16 19:43:47
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Yep once you go past 90DA the relative value of TA starts to plummet though you want to express it as a base of 1 instead of 5. What you are describing is diminishing returns of Multi Attack, it effects everything in the game. That being said, it's impossible to go over 100 DA and thus the limit for average attack rounds based on DA is 2.0 and we can hit higher then that. My Montante +1 set is at 94 DA, 12 TA, 3QA and gets 2.125 attacks per round with a 5.1% chance of not procing a MA. At a buffed 4-hit your needing 3 melee attacks which results in needing 1.41 average attack rounds between WS's. At 21.48% delay we have 1.7s per attack round for an average of 4.39s average between WS's. The WS itself is a 2s delay by itself.

Now that's not counting retaliation procs which are treated as full attack rounds and can happen in the middle of a WS animation.

It's all about lowering the average WS cycle time.
[+]
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By Leviathan.Andret 2018-06-16 22:11:34
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So I think for the sake of comparison for lv99 War:

1 TA = 1.5 DA
1 QA = 2.5 DA

Until you reach over 80 DA then it's:

1 TA = 1.1 DA
1 QA = 2.1 DA
 
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By 2018-06-22 00:40:38
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-06-22 07:32:30
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Yeah that would be a good enough rule of thumb to follow. Once your at the high end it's really hard to push the needle any further.
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