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Japan Earthquake/Tsunami
Ragnarok.Harpunnik
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 867
By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2011-03-12 16:51:49
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Bismarck.Nevill said: Bismarck.Josiahfk said: Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Sylph.Zenairis said: I can't believe some of these people they still can't let that grudge go... there's many good people over in Japan and Japan is one of our close allies now. Is this one thread on Facebook or a bunch? It is amazing how anyone can think after dropping two nuclear bombs on Japan that mentioning Pearl Harbor after such a terrible natural disaster is even justified in anyway. I mean I would say two bombs like that on a country > a battle, but hey that is just me.. This really shocked me coming from you spicy. They were both horrible situations where many lives were lost and neither you nor I have the capacity or right to truly quantify them like that. -_- Bismarck.Nevill said: Ragnarok.Afania said: Pandemonium.Spicyryan said: Sylph.Zenairis said: I can't believe some of these people they still can't let that grudge go... there's many good people over in Japan and Japan is one of our close allies now. Is this one thread on Facebook or a bunch? It is amazing how anyone can think after dropping two nuclear bombs on Japan that mentioning Pearl Harbor after such a terrible natural disaster is even justified in anyway. I mean I would say two bombs like that on a country > a battle, but hey that is just me.. Those who suffered because of earthquake are just citizens, they have nothing to do with pearl harbor, politics and war. So no, they don't deserve this in anyway. Yeah, I wonder what percentage of the affected were alive in 1942... Almost 60 years ago? yeah good question if any 68* 69*
You mean like people who are still bothered by the civil war and the confederate flag? And how no one would be offended by a mitsuibishi parked in a parking lot at Pearl Harbor.
BTW I in no way thought of Pearl Harbor when I saw this. Hope there is a speedy recovery and speedy rebuilding.
Caitsith.Taazy
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By Caitsith.Taazy 2011-03-12 16:58:41
Quote: 2252: Reuters: Operators are preparing to release radioactive steam from the number three reactor at Fukushima No. 1 plant, after the cooling system failed there
Cerberus.Liandaru
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By Cerberus.Liandaru 2011-03-12 16:59:25
I'm at my mom's, so on my cell andd not on a computer. CNN juust said Fukashima has had a catastrophic event and is heading for meltdown. Links please?
Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou
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By Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou 2011-03-12 17:01:38
Just woke up. Am I reading right that they got the no. 1 reactor under control, but that this new stuff is at reactor no. 3? It sounds like the same problems facing no. 1 last night are facing no. 3 now.
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By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2011-03-12 17:04:30
Cerberus.Liandaru said: I'm at my mom's, so on my cell andd not on a computer. CNN juust said Fukashima has had a catastrophic event and is heading for meltdown. Links please? This was apparently posted 15 mins ago..
Quote: A BATTLE to prevent a Chernobyl-style nuclear disaster was being fought last night after an explosion hit a power station already damaged by the quake.
Debris spewed over hundreds of metres in the blast and a cloud enveloped the area, where 170,000 residents have been evacuated.
Four workers were injured in the explosion at the Fukushima plant’s No 1 reactor, and three were later taken to hospital with radiation exposure. Fears were growing last night that up 160 people may have been exposed.
The plant has also lost its emergency cooling system at a second reactor, Japan’s nuclear power safety agency said last night. The emergency system is no longer functioning at the No 3 reactor, and workers were trying to pump water up to the site.
Experts last night flooded the first reactor with sea water and boric acid to try to stop any more radiation leaking into the atmosphere. The blast followed efforts to lower heat and pressure around fuel rods after the quake disabled emergency cooling generators.
As temperatures in one reactor in the Fukushima plant approached 1000°C, radiation 1,000 times normal was detected in the control room. At one point the 40-year-old plant was releasing the amount of radiation a person normally absorbs in a year every hour, said the Japanese Nuclear Safety Panel. Caesium and iodine were detected – indicating damage to nuclear fuel rods.
The blast blew off the reactor roof and demolished walls. But casing round the nuclear fuel survived, preventing a full-scale leak, officials said. Government spokesman Yukio Edano said tests indicated radiation levels and pressure in the reactor had decreased after the blast. He said: “The reactor container was not damaged. The explosion didn’t occur inside it.
“There was no large radiation leakage outside. We’ve decided to fill the reactor container with sea water.”
In London, nuclear expert Malcolm Grimston said the flooding would prevent disaster.
He said: “The sea water will cause irreparable damage to the plant but they have obviously decided that it is an old facility. Early indications are that there should not be much lasting contamination.”
As a precaution the authorities doubled the exclusion zone around the plant from six miles to 12 yesterday and continued the massive evacuation. The wind was blowing radioactive material north, away from densely populated central Japan
Reiko Takaji, waiting at a local cab office, said: “Everyone wants to get away but the roads are terrible. It is too dangerous to go anywhere – but we are afraid the wind may change.”
A state of nuclear emergency remained in place yesterday at the Fukushima plant and its sister Daini installation. The plant is 150 miles north of Tokyo.
Japanese TV advised people in the radiation zone to cover their noses and mouths with wet towels, wash after going outdoors and to avoid fresh fruit, vegetables and tap water because of the risk. Japan’s nuclear safety agency declared that the accident rated a four on the seven-point International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale.
John Large of the British Nuclear Engineering society, who has visited the stricken plant, said he feared the accident could be much worse than admitted.
He warned: “No one will die instantly but we may see an increase in cancers in the surrounding towns in the months and years ahead.” link
I can't really do a very thorough search atm, I'm busy cooking.
Valefor.Krishpy
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By Valefor.Krishpy 2011-03-12 17:07:59
Was looking around news sites to see if anyone thought that the tons of sardines we're still cleaning up here was maybe related. Like the fish knew what was coming and got spooked and lost in the harbor. o_o;
Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-03-12 17:10:16
Ewww direct sea water injection and chemical shutdown... guess they really are worried. Well that reactor is useless now lol
Bismarck.Luuujeje
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Posts: 136
By Bismarck.Luuujeje 2011-03-12 17:13:40
Will the sea water they pumped into the plant be radioactively contaminated? If so, what will they do with that sea water? Put back to the ocean? Will this cause problem in the future for the fishing? Japan diet depends largely on fishing, I believe.
And it won't stay in pacific ocean only, I think.
Wow... We are all gonna have big consequences. ..
Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou
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Posts: 475
By Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou 2011-03-12 17:13:43
Asura.Catastrophe said: Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Cerberus.Liandaru said: I'm at my mom's, so on my cell andd not on a computer. CNN juust said Fukashima has had a catastrophic event and is heading for meltdown. Links please? This was apparently posted 15 mins ago..
Quote: A BATTLE to prevent a Chernobyl-style nuclear disaster was being fought last night after an explosion hit a power station already damaged by the quake.
Debris spewed over hundreds of metres in the blast and a cloud enveloped the area, where 170,000 residents have been evacuated.
Four workers were injured in the explosion at the Fukushima plant’s No 1 reactor, and three were later taken to hospital with radiation exposure. Fears were growing last night that up 160 people may have been exposed.
The plant has also lost its emergency cooling system at a second reactor, Japan’s nuclear power safety agency said last night. The emergency system is no longer functioning at the No 3 reactor, and workers were trying to pump water up to the site.
Experts last night flooded the first reactor with sea water and boric acid to try to stop any more radiation leaking into the atmosphere. The blast followed efforts to lower heat and pressure around fuel rods after the quake disabled emergency cooling generators.
As temperatures in one reactor in the Fukushima plant approached 1000°C, radiation 1,000 times normal was detected in the control room. At one point the 40-year-old plant was releasing the amount of radiation a person normally absorbs in a year every hour, said the Japanese Nuclear Safety Panel. Caesium and iodine were detected – indicating damage to nuclear fuel rods.
The blast blew off the reactor roof and demolished walls. But casing round the nuclear fuel survived, preventing a full-scale leak, officials said. Government spokesman Yukio Edano said tests indicated radiation levels and pressure in the reactor had decreased after the blast. He said: “The reactor container was not damaged. The explosion didn’t occur inside it.
“There was no large radiation leakage outside. We’ve decided to fill the reactor container with sea water.”
In London, nuclear expert Malcolm Grimston said the flooding would prevent disaster.
He said: “The sea water will cause irreparable damage to the plant but they have obviously decided that it is an old facility. Early indications are that there should not be much lasting contamination.”
As a precaution the authorities doubled the exclusion zone around the plant from six miles to 12 yesterday and continued the massive evacuation. The wind was blowing radioactive material north, away from densely populated central Japan
Reiko Takaji, waiting at a local cab office, said: “Everyone wants to get away but the roads are terrible. It is too dangerous to go anywhere – but we are afraid the wind may change.”
A state of nuclear emergency remained in place yesterday at the Fukushima plant and its sister Daini installation. The plant is 150 miles north of Tokyo.
Japanese TV advised people in the radiation zone to cover their noses and mouths with wet towels, wash after going outdoors and to avoid fresh fruit, vegetables and tap water because of the risk. Japan’s nuclear safety agency declared that the accident rated a four on the seven-point International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale.
John Large of the British Nuclear Engineering society, who has visited the stricken plant, said he feared the accident could be much worse than admitted.
He warned: “No one will die instantly but we may see an increase in cancers in the surrounding towns in the months and years ahead.” link
I can't really do a very thorough search atm, I'm busy cooking.
Chernobyl style nuclear event isn't possible on a BWR, but okay.
So like is this another system this is happening to? I thought they had fed and bled seawater into it.
Could you elaborate on that a bit? Physically, what happened at Chernobyl? My vague understanding is that the fuel melted even after the reactor shut down, fused together and went critical again. What's different about a BWR and what they're doing that would prevent this?
By Serj 2011-03-12 17:19:59
Cerberus.Liandaru said: I'm at my mom's, so on my cell andd not on a computer. CNN juust said Fukashima has had a catastrophic event and is heading for meltdown. Links please?
I just heard on CNN that it's likely that the reactor is in the process of having a meltdown.
Is Japan downplaying the problems they're having with the reactor or is world-wide news exaggerating?
Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou
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Posts: 475
By Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou 2011-03-12 17:21:11
Serj said: Is Japan downplaying the problems they're having with the reactor or is world-wide news exaggerating?
I think that's a question we're going to be asking ourselves for the next few days/weeks lol
Bahamut.Dasva
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Posts: 13835
By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-03-12 17:22:16
Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou said: Could you elaborate on that a bit? Physically, what happened at Chernobyl? My vague understanding is that the fuel melted even after the reactor shut down, fused together and went critical again. What's different about a BWR and what they're doing that would prevent this? While certainly not good peices of the reactor still being critical to this day I believe isn't what made it the only lvl 7 nuclear event. It was the massive release of fission products and fuel etc to very large area.
Part of it had to deal with the way it operated to cause such an extreme and quick power surge. Like when things got out of hand and they tried to shut down it ended up making things worse. Poor design and even poor handling of things (but really it was the night shift that shouldn't even have been doing the testing). And well this reactor is shutdown good so heat generation is minimal so not gunna super heat it causing rediculously big explosions. Plus they used graphite moderators which ended up catching fire after being exposed from several large steam explosions sending radioactive smoke up for decent distances
Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-03-12 17:25:04
Serj said: Is Japan downplaying the problems they're having with the reactor or is world-wide news exaggerating? Probably a bit of both. Japan tends to be less than forthcoming with such things in the past and well people on the outside like to speculate and worry. After all need something to talk about besides charlie sheen
Bismarck.Luuujeje
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By Bismarck.Luuujeje 2011-03-12 17:25:15
Ty catastrophe for answer. U seem to know a lot about these stuffs. Awesome ^.^
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2011-03-12 17:27:41
Asura.Catastrophe said: BWRs can't physically do that because they function on a Negative Temperature Coefficient of Reactivity because reactor power is based on steam demand, not at Rod pullout. The hotter water is, the more expanded molecules become, harder for fission to occur. There is no graphite being used at all, which accelerates neutron flux.
wat
Christ, you know a lot about this stuff. You a physicist, engineer, something?
Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou
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By Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou 2011-03-12 17:28:43
Asura.Catastrophe said: Chernobyl is a case of terrible reactor design. Basically they were testing equipment to allow proper electrical handoff from their generators and while doing a startup. Their fuel rods are graphite tipped, which contributes to what they call a "Positive Temperature Coefficient of Reactivity" creates a power spike while it goes to SCRAM and displaces coolant on top of an already ever increasing positive void system that ends up causing an explosion.
So the SCRAM didn't even successfully complete at Chernobyl, like it did here? I don't know what a positive void system is, but it sounds like you're saying that the fact that they used graphite-tipped fuel rods allowed it to overheat more easily, bubble away coolant, and go kablooey.
(Man, didn't Dasva say SL1 used graphite? Graphite sucks.)
I imagine Chernobyl didn't have access to an unlimited amount of seawater, too.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2011-03-12 17:30:06
Asura.Catastrophe said: Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: Asura.Catastrophe said: BWRs can't physically do that because they function on a Negative Temperature Coefficient of Reactivity because reactor power is based on steam demand, not at Rod pullout. The hotter water is, the more expanded molecules become, harder for fission to occur. There is no graphite being used at all, which accelerates neutron flux.
wat
Christ, you know a lot about this stuff. You a physicist, engineer, something?
~_~ sorry. lol D:
Oh no, I'm just curious lol. I got to an engineering school and only people who really study this ***can give an answer anywhere near as good as you do.
Asura.Ebry
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By Asura.Ebry 2011-03-12 17:30:33
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: Asura.Catastrophe said: BWRs can't physically do that because they function on a Negative Temperature Coefficient of Reactivity because reactor power is based on steam demand, not at Rod pullout. The hotter water is, the more expanded molecules become, harder for fission to occur. There is no graphite being used at all, which accelerates neutron flux.
wat
Christ, you know a lot about this stuff. You a physicist, engineer, something?
This might help?
Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou
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By Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou 2011-03-12 17:30:45
Asura.Catastrophe said: BWRs can't physically do that because they function on a Negative Temperature Coefficient of Reactivity because reactor power is based on steam demand, not at Rod pullout. The hotter water is, the more expanded molecules become, harder for fission to occur. There is no graphite being used at all, which accelerates neutron flux.
/cheer
Relax, people, Chernobyl comparisons are nonsense. The physics is completely different here.
Quetzalcoatl.Taxero
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By Quetzalcoatl.Taxero 2011-03-12 17:30:46
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: Asura.Catastrophe said: BWRs can't physically do that because they function on a Negative Temperature Coefficient of Reactivity because reactor power is based on steam demand, not at Rod pullout. The hotter water is, the more expanded molecules become, harder for fission to occur. There is no graphite being used at all, which accelerates neutron flux.
wat
he says we need one point twenty-one gigawatts to power up the flux capacitator !
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By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2011-03-12 17:34:50
Quetzalcoatl.Kanjirou said: Asura.Catastrophe said: BWRs can't physically do that because they function on a Negative Temperature Coefficient of Reactivity because reactor power is based on steam demand, not at Rod pullout. The hotter water is, the more expanded molecules become, harder for fission to occur. There is no graphite being used at all, which accelerates neutron flux.
/cheer
Relax, people, Chernobyl comparisons are nonsense. The physics is completely different here. As far as I can tell, all he's saying that can't happen Chernobyl style, is blowing the top off the reactor core.. It doesn't mean that this couldn't turn into an environmental tragedy if it isn't brought under control.
Correct me if I'm wrong.. It seems they've already bricked one reactor, I really doubt if it was just safe to let it do whatever that they would still be trying so hard to get it under control.
Bahamut.Dasva
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By Bahamut.Dasva 2011-03-12 17:35:16
Also the problem with using graphite moderators also is losing coolant like say from water boiling or just expanding from heating up so less in same space or displacing some of it from scramming or a leak will mean more will get to the graphite to moderate increasing reactor power boiling more water round and round resulting in uncontrollable increase in power. However it works so well you can use less fuel and less enriched fuel easier.
On the other hand water moderators work the oposite since as density goes down moderation will go down reducing power so it balances out.
Also apparently graphite burns decent
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