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Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angrying it deeply?
Sylph.Vestal
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By Sylph.Vestal 2010-05-04 10:09:55
I only come back to creep on haseyo's avatar. I hope this didn't offend a Muslim.
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 10:14:31
Asura.Jetzabel said: Phoenix.Darki said: Asura.Jetzabel said: Phoenix.Darki said: you really sound like you lost your patience ~.~ Asura.Jetzabel said: How so? lol Is this a case of "Why is it so difficult to ask something seriously without someone accusing you of being angry?" =p
Still not making sense? lol
not really.
Ohhhhh ok. {Understood} You don't understand your own posts. I should have guessed that from someone who equates culture to religion ^^
You are really offensive you know? That makes you look like an ***. and I wasn't equating them, art history thought me both are connected and influenced, culture is another form of expression and art, therefor religion is portrayed in it.
sorry I had to explain that to you, your just such a moron you need to be thaught of everything apparently.
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 10:16:07
Phoenix.Darki said: Asura.Jetzabel said: Phoenix.Darki said: Asura.Jetzabel said: Phoenix.Darki said: you really sound like you lost your patience ~.~ Asura.Jetzabel said: How so? lol Is this a case of "Why is it so difficult to ask something seriously without someone accusing you of being angry?" =p
Still not making sense? lol
not really.
Ohhhhh ok. {Understood} You don't understand your own posts. I should have guessed that from someone who equates culture to religion ^^
You are really offensive you know? That makes you look like an ***. and I wasn't equating them, art history thought me both are connected and influenced, culture is another form of expression and art, therefor religion is portrayed in it.
sorry I had to explain that to you, your just such a moron you need to be thaught of everything apparently.
Also btw, atleast I don't 'pretend' to know ***, I'm not afraid to ask and get informed on things I'm not aware of, unlike some poeple.... so before you decide being a douche to just about anyone, you should really think about whos attacking you on the forums... oh wait, you don't care, because its people online and you shouldnt have any respect for them, I forgot your way of thinking.. yeah, portrays on your stupid face on your avatar.
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 10:20:56
Asura.Jetzabel said: Phoenix.Darki said: Asura.Jetzabel said: Phoenix.Darki said: Asura.Jetzabel said: Phoenix.Darki said: you really sound like you lost your patience ~.~ Asura.Jetzabel said: How so? lol Is this a case of "Why is it so difficult to ask something seriously without someone accusing you of being angry?" =p
Still not making sense? lol
not really.
Ohhhhh ok. {Understood} You don't understand your own posts. I should have guessed that from someone who equates culture to religion ^^
You are really offensive you know? That makes you look like an ***. and I wasn't equating them, art history thought me both are connected and influenced, culture is another form of expression and art, therefor religion is portrayed in it.
sorry I had to explain that to you, your just such a moron you need to be thaught of everything apparently.
You posted in the topic directly to me, then feigned knowledge of it/why you said it. That is called being ignorant and bordering on trolling, ergo I gave you the deserved reply: a sarcastic remark that was also serious. By your logic, a christian from asia will have the same 'culture' as a christian from ireland. If you think that is correct, please do explain. Otherwise the sarcasm still stands.
oh god your annoying.
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-04 10:21:42
The thing about Islam is we follow the words in the Qu'ran and the Sunnats of the prophets, basically the way the prophet used the Quran to incorporated it in his everyday life (since Arabic words can have multiple meaning having him explain in example really helped us understand 99.9%* of the Qu'ran) Thats why the religion does not incorporate Culture in it.
*what is not fully understood is currently in open debate with Muslim scholars and will be settled when they come to a agreement.
[+]
By Trebold 2010-05-04 10:21:54
Hmm, no, I wouldn't say that Culture and Religion are the same thing. But if you read the Qu'ran word-for-word and read the Hadith as well, then you have to take into context the culture at the time of those events. If you completely ignored Arabian culture, there's no way you could come to understand many of the things in these documents. For example, for Muslims in America, we don't stone people to death for infidelity, but in the Hadith there are many accounts of stoning concerning infidelity.
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 10:24:19
Trebold said: Hmm, no, I wouldn't say that Culture and Religion are the same thing. But if you read the Qu'ran word-for-word and read the Hadith as well, then you have to take into context the culture at the time of those events. If you completely ignored Arabian culture, there's no way you could come to understand many of the things in these documents. For example, for Muslims in America, we don't stone people to death for infidelity, but in the Hadith there are many accounts of stoning concerning infidelity.
I'm not making them up as the same thing, like I said in a previous post to that stupid closed-minded ***, Art history thought me culture is influenced by a movement of art and times, so religion is aswell portrayed in it, because culture is basicly what we're born into, so some religion is involved in it. Thats why I said your culture, not taking it to a literal level that they're the same, but I was mainly referring to the culture instead of the religion. Because your culture does have alot of beautiful things in it, taking aside religion.
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 10:30:49
Asura.Jetzabel said: Phoenix.Darki said: Trebold said: Hmm, no, I wouldn't say that Culture and Religion are the same thing. But if you read the Qu'ran word-for-word and read the Hadith as well, then you have to take into context the culture at the time of those events. If you completely ignored Arabian culture, there's no way you could come to understand many of the things in these documents. For example, for Muslims in America, we don't stone people to death for infidelity, but in the Hadith there are many accounts of stoning concerning infidelity.
I'm not making them up as the same thing, like I said in a previous post to that stupid closed-minded ***, Art history thought me culture is influenced by a movement of art and times, so religion is aswell portrayed in it, because culture is basicly what we're born into, so some religion is involved in it. Thats why I said your culture, not taking it to a literal level that they're the same, but I was mainly referring to the culture instead of the religion. Because your culture does have alot of beautiful things in it, taking aside religion.
Do you see how this works? You posted a comment directed at me without any consideration of context and insinuated that I had somehow lost my cool as it were. I hadn't, so I tried to joke about it using the topic title as my prop. But then you tried to play stupid about it. So now I'm doing the same to you, and... "you really sound like you lost your patience ~.~"
I'm actually surprised you got angry enough to call me a "stupid closed-minded ***". Now that is pretty offensive. Have a nice day.
one question
Are you a drama queen or attention ***?
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-04 10:32:38
epic battle has started
CHOOSE YOUR POKEMON!
*battle music*
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 10:34:02
Ramuh.Thunderz said: epic battle has started
CHOOSE YOUR POKEMON!
*battle music*
lol. wheres 'this thread is about cats' pic.. someone bump it plz.
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 10:34:31
Ifrit.Kungfuhustle said: you guys and your worthless religious views. Don't you all understand that this is a thread about cats...
hellz yez.
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-04 10:35:14
thread needs a derail pic
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 10:36:30
Ramuh.Thunderz said: thread needs a derail pic
Mission accomplished if it's derailed then! woot.
By Trebold 2010-05-04 10:37:26
I'd like to make an allusion to past events concerning State-Shinto. Before the end of World War 2, most of the Japanese had believed that their emperor was above other Japanese citizens. When the emperor's words spoken about the success Japan would have during World War 2 didn't turn out as he expected, people began to question his 'divinity'. He himself eventually came out and stated that he was not an incarnation of god, but just a human as everyone else was.
This is much like what we see in prophets of Western-based religions(saying that they are an incarnation of god, or that they are speaking from god's voice), but the only difference is that Western prophets are all dead, and it can no longer be proven that these men could have been frauds as well.
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 10:38:39
Trebold said: I'd like to make an allusion to past events concerning State-Shinto. Before the end of World War 2, most of the Japanese had believed that their emperor was above other Japanese citizens. When the emperor's words spoken about the success Japan would have during World War 2 didn't turn out as he expected, people began to question his 'divinity'. He himself eventually came out and stated that he was not an incarnation of god, but just a human as everyone else was.
This is much like what we see in prophets of Western-based religions(saying that they are an incarnation of god, or that they are speaking from god's voice), but the only difference is that Western prophets are all dead, and it can no longer be proven that these men could have been frauds as well.
I am the incarnation of hitler, you just don't know it yet ~.~
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-04 10:41:33
Trebold said: I'd like to make an allusion to past events concerning State-Shinto. Before the end of World War 2, most of the Japanese had believed that their emperor was above other Japanese citizens. When the emperor's words spoken about the success Japan would have during World War 2 didn't turn out as he expected, people began to question his 'divinity'. He himself eventually came out and stated that he was not an incarnation of god, but just a human as everyone else was.
This is much like what we see in prophets of Western-based religions(saying that they are an incarnation of god, or that they are speaking from god's voice), but the only difference is that Western prophets are all dead, and it can no longer be proven that these men could have been frauds as well.
You dont need the person to be alive to prove him as a fraud. Its easy-er but you dont need him to be alive
By Trebold 2010-05-04 10:42:38
I guess my question is.. if your prophet had said before he died: "Sorry guys, I'm not actually the prophet of god" Would you still believe that the Qu'ran, the Bible, or the Tanakh was the word of god?
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-04 10:45:41
Trebold said: I guess my question is.. if your prophet had said before he died: "Sorry guys, I'm not actually the prophet of god" Would you still believe that the Qu'ran, the Bible, or the Tanakh was the word of god?
I would be pissed then ate some KD out of the pot.
Understood that from your other post (I knew that was coming lol) of course if he said that it was all a lie then all religions would have been blacklisted from there. (Islam, Christianity and Jewish) all derive from the same religion.
By Trebold 2010-05-04 10:52:38
Ramuh.Thunderz said: Trebold said: I guess my question is.. if your prophet had said before he died: "Sorry guys, I'm not actually the prophet of god" Would you still believe that the Qu'ran, the Bible, or the Tanakh was the word of god?
I would be pissed then ate some KD out of the pot.
Understood that from your other post (I knew that was coming lol) of course if he said that it was all a lie then all religions would have been blacklisted from there. (Islam, Christianity and Jewish) all derive from the same religion.
I don't think that's necessarily the case. Some would say, "Oh, HE'S lying, but obviously our religion is true." Then you would see that Buddhism or Hinduism would be the dominate religion of this age. If Muhammad outright said that he was lying, Islam would be a small faction. If Jesus said that he was lying, I don't even know if Islam would exist to begin with. If Moses said he was lying, I don't know if Christianity would exist, therefore begging to question if Islam would.
Considering everyone you've ever met in your lifetime is human, and as such fallible, why do you give credit to one man for stating he knows god? Do you believe that god only speaks to 1 out of billions of people? Or do you argue the point because it's an age-old religion, or maybe because your parents taught you to believe?
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-04 11:03:27
The way he lived his life, the religion itself and how it changed nation. Its not everyone that could accomplish what he did and the way of life he teachers interest me. Islam isn't "Believe with faint" kind of religion you can Question all you want aspect of the religion and you will be given a valid reason.
By Trebold 2010-05-04 11:13:06
I look at people like Winston Churchill and see the way he lived his life and spoke to people with much respect. I feel the same about Martin Luther King Jr. Quotes from these people, I generally respect, but I will not follow their beliefs without good reason first. It just so happens that there generally is good reason for it. These men also accomplished great things in their lives, and their way of life interests me as well. However, from a personal standpoint, some of the events in the Hadith make me question the actions of Muhammad.
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By Ramuh.Thunderz 2010-05-04 11:25:08
Thats why its very important to make sure the hadiths you are reading valid and if you dont understand or question a certain aspect of the hadith you can ask someone to clarify it for you
By Trebold 2010-05-04 11:48:44
Examples:
Bukhari (60:139) - Which sanctifies temporary marriage, simply for the sake of obeying law.
We used to participate in the holy wars carried on by the Prophet and we had no women (wives) with us. So we said (to the Prophet ). "Shall we castrate ourselves?" But the Prophet forbade us to do that and thenceforth he allowed us to marry a woman (temporarily) by giving her even a garment, and then he recited: "O you who believe! Do not make unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you."
Bukhari (52:260) - Right to kill for apostasy
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Bukhari (89:271) - Apostasy
A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.
Qu'ran (33:50) - Women are but possessions of the people they took captive, "what your right hand possesses". Also, they can be made wives by their new owners.
O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Unless you're an imam, I don't expect you to answer these. And these are but a few of the qualms I have with the teachings. Did he struggle to say that all people were equal? Or did he make a harsh distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims, between women and men?
[+]
Phoenix.Darki
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-04 17:20:46
Phoenix.Darki said: Ifrit.Kungfuhustle said: you guys and your worthless religious views. Don't you all understand that this is a thread about cats...
hellz yez.
catz.
I think I figured out how it is possible that the large majority of people from the Muslim world would be so profoundly offended when their Prophet is criticized or made fun of. I mean, to them, it could very well look obvious, yet it seems they do not really understand why either. A lot of them just accept that someone would be killed for depicting the prophet Mohamed, even though we ask them why, in a way that we feel cannot be argued with. How is it possible that someone would be hated for openly making fun of something as mundane as religion, we ask? I think I can reasonably explain why they would accept the idea, believe it or not. I want to know what is to be done if we're going to help these people stop feeling so persecuted and if we’re going to finally gain the right to criticize Islam, as it should be, without threatening the people in it. The answer, I think, lies in our perceptions of what religion is versus where it should stand in relations to ethnicity. Help me out.
First, it is difficult to argue against the idea that Islam, to this day, is majorly against the advancement of secular culture. It is associated so directly to what I would refer, for lack of a better word, Arabian culture, that criticizing a religion tied so closely with it, appears (at least from my personal experience) to insult them, as people. Another factor to consider is how Muslims, despite their divisions, have the strength in numbers to lead us into being cautious about criticizing Islamic beliefs, even if it shouldn’t be so. Any critic, whether it is well intentioned or backed with incredibly solid and logical arguments, seems to backfire when it is targeted at Islam. More than often, it seems to be giving more reasons to feel justified, leading Islamic countries to cocoon themselves from modern secular culture. Unlike other ethnicities that are also extremely tied to their religion; the Jews, for example, the fact that they’re over a billion, somewhat gives them the mental ability to feel universally justified. It’s as if any strong criticism of Islam was a threat to their identity, integrity and intelligence, even when it’s not...
In a secular view, insulting religion doesn't necessarily equate to racial discrimination, and the fact that our western culture systematically ignores this, is the key point that prevents the western world from understanding why Muslims would be so offended. I have come to realize that a lot of Muslims try to say it, but it seems they do not understand what I am writing here, at least not enough to put it into the proper words that would make us understand. My goal is to help us both come to understand, through careful yet fortunate observations which I feel have led me to grasp some of this intricate psychology.
Let’s think for a second about this analogy: Let’s compare some white guy shouting racist comments towards blacks to your average non-Christian openly criticizing Christianity. Which is the worst, in the eyes of the average American, or European? Racism, isn’t it? Racism is undoubtedly the worst of those two things, at least according to our modern secular values. This is not to say that racism has been eradicated from the Western world, far from it. But even for the most racist among us in North America, it is extremely discouraged to make a racist statement publicly. It is not viewed as acceptable at all.
Have you ever seen a single Arabic person and expect him not to be a Muslim? It's as if their religion has so much grasp that it's nearly impossible for an Arabic person to not be a Muslim. But why doesn’t anyone seem to question this fact? Isn’t it fishy, considering that religion should be a choice? In fact, Muslims, in Muslim countries, are taught, from childhood, that the punishment for apostasy is death. The indoctrination is done to them so early in their life, and in such a strong and unquestionable way, that it achieves terrific results; it is almost irreversible. To them this is a good thing; to us, it’s just wrong.
In my opinion, the fact that Islam, as a religion, has been able to keep such a strong grasp, to this day, on the lives of the almost entirety of Arabic cultures is leading the Islamic world to a dangerous path. We all know that not only religion can be used to control masses, ii can also be a dangerous weapon. In America, some will argue, television is used for mass propaganda and it is difficult for the majority to avoid being brainwashed by many ideas that they would otherwise have never acquired as individuals. However, an average occidental still gets to make SOME choices about what morality should be; they chose whether they’ll be for or against abortion, whether they’ll be against slavery or not, whether they’ll vote for a black man or not.
It is possible to speak with a Muslim about what we dislike in Islam, without him getting angry. I have experienced it myself. It is difficult, however. Even as I was able to converse, I would feel the incredible pain that questioning one’s own identity can inflict on an indoctrinated individual. As we cannot tolerate being racially discriminated, they cannot tolerate negative criticism of Islam; they view is as their culture.
It may be sad to say, for most of us who wish for world peace, but secularism is not going to happen anytime soon in the Arab world. It could never be forced on Muslims. It is completely against their conception of what a religion should be and what place it should have in their life. Through what I have just explained, we can even understand the bottomless frustration of Muslims against non-Muslims when faced with debates like whether or not we should be banning the Burka in public spaces. The same issue arises: to us, it’s common sense and required for secularism, to them it’s a slap in the face, not as a Muslim but as an Arab. To us, it's freedom of speech; to them, it's against it. It is an insult to their culture, just as we would react to someone trying to deny our right to have a cultural background, just as we would react to a Muslim telling a White woman that wearing g-strings is degrading and wrong.
How can we possibly achieve a secular society, with Muslims living in it, if we do not agree on whether it’s okay to force someone to act secularly? Aren’t we stuck with the problem of having many kids arguing about who gets to play with the ball, while one of the kids sits on the ball, arguing that it should not be played with in the first place? How flexible can secularism be, without ending up betraying itself?
Can we find a temporary solution? I would like your opinion.
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