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Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angrying it deeply?
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 18:09:54
Asura.Bartimaeus said: Jack Ruby did it for a Lee's Klondike Bar, too. I'm sure of it.
Sorry, lol. Was a joke I came up with in History, in HS. BTW, is it bad that I know what kind of rifle Kennedy was shot with? My dream job was Gunsmithing. >.>
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 18:14:10
Asura.Bartimaeus said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Bartimaeus said: Jack Ruby did it for a Lee's Klondike Bar, too. I'm sure of it. Sorry, lol. Was a joke I came up with in History, in HS. BTW, is it bad that I know what kind of rifle Kennedy was shot with? My dream job was Gunsmithing. >.> I think it's worse that I'm now imagining all sorts of Klondike bar commercials with the most inappropriate news events ever.. good times.
Mannlicher-Carcano, think it was a 6mm bullet (6mm Carcano, IIRC) known to be one of the worst, most inaccurate sniper rifles of the time. I think it was Italian.
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-05-03 18:15:25
Every religion gets upset when you criticize it. Because for most people, their sense of life purpose and identity are so wrapped in their beliefs, any criticism of it is pretty much a direct attack on the person themselves.
The difference is, the political situation in the world right now is such that a lot of nations with strong Islamic populations are theocracies. There is no separation of church and state. As such, there is no filter or downward pressure to suppress the crazier, more nationalist or violent parts of the religion. In fact, in many countries, playing up these negative feelings is a shortcut to power and winning elections.
There are parts of the Bible calling for genocide and slaughter of non-Jews and non-Christians. There are a great deal of horrible atrocities that are now downplayed. Why? Because the nature of most modern Western (Christian) societies is for secular pressure to push these parts off the table of valid positions, and instead, Christianity now tends to focus on only the good parts.
It has not always been this way. Medieval Christian countries, without the separation of church and state, were just as violently touchy as modern Islamic theocracies. (And used the nastier parts of the Bible to back themselves up.) But by the same token, there are primarily Islamic, secular democracies today as well, where criticism of Islam is tolerated exactly the same way criticism of Christianity is tolerated here.
It's not the religion. It's the political climate and the culture around it.
[+]
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 18:16:06
Asura.Bartimaeus said: Lol nice. but SHHHH! We're interrupting their God talk and stufffff.
It needs to be interrupted, getting too outta control.
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By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-03 18:16:10
Asura.Korpg said: Fairy.Maimed said: Asura.Korpg said: I think what bothers people about Muslims the most is, there is no camp training people to spread the word in any religion, there is no camp training people to enjoy life, but there are camps in Afghanistan and possibly other places we don't know of that are training radicals.
Islam has the largest radical/rational population in all religions. You can't deny that.
What do you call Southern States? Catholic Schools? etc.. Come on, do you honestly believe half the people in our red states are all about cultural tolerance or closet racists desperately trying to cling to maintaining their circles of like-minded individuals? Now you are just generalizing.
Every southerner is a radical? When did that happen?
I didn't say there were no such things as radicals outside of Islam, I said that there are more radical/rational people in Islamic communities than there are in any other religion.
You are assuming too much, go back to doing whatever you were doing before you came here on this thread.
Care to substantiate with actual proof? You've got idiots like John McCain happily endorsing the Arizona immigration law and you want to point fingers at the very small yet vocal population of the radical muslim population and claim we're all one and the same.
You forget about Neo Nazis, Ku Klux Klan, malaysian commerical pirates, and other such organizations. Do you think they are truly that few in number compared to the radical muslims that attract our current news media?
Tally it up, you'll see the world consists of morons of all shapes & sizes. Yes, you'll see a proportionately larger number from more popular relgions, cultures, races, and such.
You insist your argument is a simple statement yet anyone with half a brain that can put together the rhyme and reason of your comments can figure out you're basically implying Islam is an evil religion that promotes violence.
I love how you have zero knowledge on the subject yet fight tooth and nail trying to prove a point that you belong in this forum.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 18:20:12
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: Every religion gets upset when you criticize it. Because for most people, their sense of life purpose and identity are so wrapped in their beliefs, any criticism of it is pretty much a direct attack on the person themselves. The difference is, the political situation in the world right now is such that a lot of nations with strong Islamic populations are theocracies. There is no separation of church and state. As such, there is no filter or downward pressure to suppress the crazier, more nationalist or violent parts of the religion. In fact, in many countries, playing up these negative feelings is a shortcut to power and winning elections. There are parts of the Bible calling for genocide and slaughter of non-Jews and non-Christians. There are a great deal of horrible atrocities that are now downplayed. Why? Because the nature of most modern Western (Christian) societies is for secular pressure to push these parts off the table of valid positions, and instead, Christianity now tends to focus on only the good parts. It has not always been this way. Medieval Christian countries, without the separation of church and state, were just as violently touchy as modern Islamic theocracies. (And used the nastier parts of the Bible to back themselves up.) But by the same token, there are primarily Islamic, secular democracies today as well, where criticism of Islam is tolerated exactly the same way criticism of Christianity is tolerated here. It's not the religion. It's the political climate and the culture around it.
Might I throw in the Salem Witch Trials as an example of these atrocities committed, based on beliefs. In those days, having a good luck charm was considered witchcraft and you could have been tried and killed for it.
EDIT: IIRC, that was due to Christian belief.
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-03 18:32:26
Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Bartimaeus said: This thread is out of control. Stop making such heated topics. Talk about something less controversial like abortion.
Or Female Genital Mutilation.
I didn't have an abortion, so now I'm stuck 5 months and a half pregnant with anemia. :< damn kids.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 18:34:45
Garuda.Mabrook said: I mean everyone here is already grown and have their own mind-set but think of the children in the generations to come if people in today's world teach hatred not only from the extremists in Islam but everywhere else. Keep in mind, every person that says even the slightest bad thing about a group of people in front of their children is another 50-100 years putting gas on the flames.
Which is why I can't stand seeing a baby/kid on one of those Klan documentaries. The kid doesn't have much of a chance being taught pointless hatred from birth.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 18:35:46
Phoenix.Darki said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Bartimaeus said: This thread is out of control. Stop making such heated topics. Talk about something less controversial like abortion. Or Female Genital Mutilation. I didn't have an abortion, so now I'm stuck 5 months and a half pregnant with anemia. :< damn kids.
You're pregnant. You can't be half-pregnant. lrn 2 biology.
EDIT: OH, I read that wrong. But my statement is valid. You can't be half-pregnant.
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By Ramuh.Sorrowandpain 2010-05-03 18:44:16
Lakshmi.Jaerik said: Every religion gets upset when you criticize it. Because for most people, their sense of life purpose and identity are so wrapped in their beliefs, any criticism of it is pretty much a direct attack on the person themselves.
The difference is, the political situation in the world right now is such that a lot of nations with strong Islamic populations are theocracies. There is no separation of church and state. As such, there is no filter or downward pressure to suppress the crazier, more nationalist or violent parts of the religion. In fact, in many countries, playing up these negative feelings is a shortcut to power and winning elections.
There are parts of the Bible calling for genocide and slaughter of non-Jews and non-Christians. There are a great deal of horrible atrocities that are now downplayed. Why? Because the nature of most modern Western (Christian) societies is for secular pressure to push these parts off the table of valid positions, and instead, Christianity now tends to focus on only the good parts.
It has not always been this way. Medieval Christian countries, without the separation of church and state, were just as violently touchy as modern Islamic theocracies. (And used the nastier parts of the Bible to back themselves up.) But by the same token, there are primarily Islamic, secular democracies today as well, where criticism of Islam is tolerated exactly the same way criticism of Christianity is tolerated here.
It's not the religion. It's the political climate and the culture around it.
I understand your point but in fact the western Secular values originate from ancient greece when they were rediscovered during the Renaissance period and this was Europe's ticket of the dark ages, Religion has nothing of good, what usually is good is religious people with good intentions and this is different, remember that one of Religion's main tools is to work on people's self-esteem and slowly destroy it , remember it was Jesus who 1st brought the idea of we are all born with sin and only trough him we can find salvation and only god can love us and blah blah blah, the works...... sounds like a husband using mental manipulations on his wife.
Besides having such poor self-esteem after how many years into this indoctrination leaves people extremely dependent, it is their drug per say, which is why when u criticize it it hurts them, also religion has no morals because it is a system where the believers must obey the supreme authority, after all they are taught that way since they where kids or at least when they were converted so whatever their god tells them to do the people will do it and this is how religious leaders use "Revelation" to cause the believers to cause such atrocities and genocide.......
To sum it all up, Religion should plainly disappear!! People should become more educated, practice critical thinking and obtain mental tools to strengthen their self-esteem to be able to deal with every day's life.
Yes I am an atheist, and it is the only logical way for it is the default position.
By RamenGirl 2010-05-03 18:52:42
These guys have been killing people for thousands of years, I think its safe to say alot of people don't have a sense of humor lol. Talking to ignorant people is like banging your head against a mountain to make it move... you won't make it move only give yourself a really.. really, bad headache.
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-03 18:54:05
Phoenix.Kojo said: Phoenix.Darki said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Bartimaeus said: This thread is out of control. Stop making such heated topics. Talk about something less controversial like abortion. Or Female Genital Mutilation. I didn't have an abortion, so now I'm stuck 5 months and a half pregnant with anemia. :< damn kids.
You're pregnant. You can't be half-pregnant. lrn 2 biology.
EDIT: OH, I read that wrong. But my statement is valid. You can't be half-pregnant.
tsktsk :<
Phoenix.Kojo said: Garuda.Mabrook said: I mean everyone here is already grown and have their own mind-set but think of the children in the generations to come if people in today's world teach hatred not only from the extremists in Islam but everywhere else. Keep in mind, every person that says even the slightest bad thing about a group of people in front of their children is another 50-100 years putting gas on the flames.
Which is why I can't stand seeing a baby/kid on one of those Klan documentaries. The kid doesn't have much of a chance being taught pointless hatred from birth.
I'm glad to realize these things at a very early age so I can teach my son these things aswell but with out hatred, the curse we set on our children is the hatred we hold... if sometimes we sacrificed ourselves a little and hold it in, they might be free from our hatred and live a healthier life.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 18:54:10
RamenGirl said: These guys have been killing people for thousands of years, I think its safe to say alot of people don't have a sense of humor lol. Talking to ignorant people is like banging your head against a mountain to make it move... you won't make it move only give yourself a really.. really, bad headache.
Depends on which head you're using.
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By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-03 18:54:31
People should have faith. Faith and Religion is not the same thing.
Now think if all of these religions did not exist. How many less problem we could have avoided.
How many wars have been fought, because of religion? A lot.
Religion keeps us divided, so do borders and the different languages of the world.
They are just ways to control us all.
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-03 18:56:49
Phoenix.Kojo said: RamenGirl said: These guys have been killing people for thousands of years, I think its safe to say alot of people don't have a sense of humor lol. Talking to ignorant people is like banging your head against a mountain to make it move... you won't make it move only give yourself a really.. really, bad headache.
Depends on which head you're using.
You have officialy made me think perversive thoughts.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 18:57:43
Phoenix.Darki said: Phoenix.Kojo said: RamenGirl said: These guys have been killing people for thousands of years, I think its safe to say alot of people don't have a sense of humor lol. Talking to ignorant people is like banging your head against a mountain to make it move... you won't make it move only give yourself a really.. really, bad headache. Depends on which head you're using. You have officialy made me think perversive thoughts.
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By Ramuh.Sorrowandpain 2010-05-03 19:01:22
Seraph.Rafik said: People should have faith. Faith and Religion is not the same thing.
Now think if all of these religions did not exist. How many less problem we could have avoided.
How many wars have been fought, because of religion? A lot.
Religion keeps us divided, so do borders and the different languages of the world.
They are just ways to control us all.
I agree with you in almost everything except for the whole faith thing, faith is To believe without evidence or despite the evidence, therefore i think people could very well live without faith , make proper choices using logic tho i understand there are instances in life where we have to make a decision and there is no time to think it through but hopefully for the most cases people should be more rational, and like I said, besides that little point i agree with the rest that you said.
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By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-03 19:03:22
Garuda.Mabrook said: God I love that man's face (no homo).
He did kiss the King of Saudi Arabia and was holding his hand.....
edit like French kiss <.<
By RamenGirl 2010-05-03 19:05:24
Seraph.Rafik said: People should have faith. Faith and Religion is not the same thing.
Now think if all of these religions did not exist. How many less problem we could have avoided.
How many wars have been fought, because of religion? A lot.
Religion keeps us divided, so do borders and the different languages of the world.
They are just ways to control us all.
Agree'd.
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By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-03 19:06:25
Fairy.Maimed said: Care to substantiate with actual proof? You've got idiots like John McCain happily endorsing the Arizona immigration law and you want to point fingers at the very small yet vocal population of the radical muslim population and claim we're all one and the same.
You forget about Neo Nazis, Ku Klux Klan, malaysian commerical pirates, and other such organizations. Do you think they are truly that few in number compared to the radical muslims that attract our current news media?
Tally it up, you'll see the world consists of morons of all shapes & sizes. Yes, you'll see a proportionately larger number from more popular relgions, cultures, races, and such.
You insist your argument is a simple statement yet anyone with half a brain that can put together the rhyme and reason of your comments can figure out you're basically implying Islam is an evil religion that promotes violence.
I love how you have zero knowledge on the subject yet fight tooth and nail trying to prove a point that you belong in this forum. Wait, you take one law that only affects one state and assume that every southerner is part of a radical group?
No, I don't say every Muslim is a radical but there are a significant proportion out there, and it is growing.
Yes, there are morons everywhere, I'm quoting one now.
Only bad thing I'm really saying about Islam is its discrimination of women. But you don't see that, you just see my name and automatically troll whatever I said, even if you yourself don't understand what the topic really is.
But what Jaerik said is true to the point.
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By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-03 19:21:05
Seraph.Rafik said: Garuda.Mabrook said: God I love that man's face (no homo).
He did kiss the King of Saudi Arabia and was holding his hand.....
edit like French kiss <.<
pics or didnt happen
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By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-03 19:25:21
Phoenix.Darki said: Seraph.Rafik said: Garuda.Mabrook said: God I love that man's face (no homo).
He did kiss the King of Saudi Arabia and was holding his hand.....
edit like French kiss <.<
pics or didnt happen
google it the video is out there
I saw it live when it happened on Cnn lol
By Keiya 2010-05-03 19:27:23
Mabrook:
of course a lot of them won't say no for her to work but they won't help her either in raising children or her work in house (there aren't a lot of good men out there)
but .. easiest lives ? .. I don't think so , maybe the people you know are just good ones
Islam for sure respected women there are a lot of lines in holy Quran and Sonah that tells the husband to treat her very well but oh yeah how many people actually do this?
So it's easy to say Islam do respect women and ordered men to treat her very well but a lot of men (yes a lot not all) won't do this.
I think I figured out how it is possible that the large majority of people from the Muslim world would be so profoundly offended when their Prophet is criticized or made fun of. I mean, to them, it could very well look obvious, yet it seems they do not really understand why either. A lot of them just accept that someone would be killed for depicting the prophet Mohamed, even though we ask them why, in a way that we feel cannot be argued with. How is it possible that someone would be hated for openly making fun of something as mundane as religion, we ask? I think I can reasonably explain why they would accept the idea, believe it or not. I want to know what is to be done if we're going to help these people stop feeling so persecuted and if we’re going to finally gain the right to criticize Islam, as it should be, without threatening the people in it. The answer, I think, lies in our perceptions of what religion is versus where it should stand in relations to ethnicity. Help me out.
First, it is difficult to argue against the idea that Islam, to this day, is majorly against the advancement of secular culture. It is associated so directly to what I would refer, for lack of a better word, Arabian culture, that criticizing a religion tied so closely with it, appears (at least from my personal experience) to insult them, as people. Another factor to consider is how Muslims, despite their divisions, have the strength in numbers to lead us into being cautious about criticizing Islamic beliefs, even if it shouldn’t be so. Any critic, whether it is well intentioned or backed with incredibly solid and logical arguments, seems to backfire when it is targeted at Islam. More than often, it seems to be giving more reasons to feel justified, leading Islamic countries to cocoon themselves from modern secular culture. Unlike other ethnicities that are also extremely tied to their religion; the Jews, for example, the fact that they’re over a billion, somewhat gives them the mental ability to feel universally justified. It’s as if any strong criticism of Islam was a threat to their identity, integrity and intelligence, even when it’s not...
In a secular view, insulting religion doesn't necessarily equate to racial discrimination, and the fact that our western culture systematically ignores this, is the key point that prevents the western world from understanding why Muslims would be so offended. I have come to realize that a lot of Muslims try to say it, but it seems they do not understand what I am writing here, at least not enough to put it into the proper words that would make us understand. My goal is to help us both come to understand, through careful yet fortunate observations which I feel have led me to grasp some of this intricate psychology.
Let’s think for a second about this analogy: Let’s compare some white guy shouting racist comments towards blacks to your average non-Christian openly criticizing Christianity. Which is the worst, in the eyes of the average American, or European? Racism, isn’t it? Racism is undoubtedly the worst of those two things, at least according to our modern secular values. This is not to say that racism has been eradicated from the Western world, far from it. But even for the most racist among us in North America, it is extremely discouraged to make a racist statement publicly. It is not viewed as acceptable at all.
Have you ever seen a single Arabic person and expect him not to be a Muslim? It's as if their religion has so much grasp that it's nearly impossible for an Arabic person to not be a Muslim. But why doesn’t anyone seem to question this fact? Isn’t it fishy, considering that religion should be a choice? In fact, Muslims, in Muslim countries, are taught, from childhood, that the punishment for apostasy is death. The indoctrination is done to them so early in their life, and in such a strong and unquestionable way, that it achieves terrific results; it is almost irreversible. To them this is a good thing; to us, it’s just wrong.
In my opinion, the fact that Islam, as a religion, has been able to keep such a strong grasp, to this day, on the lives of the almost entirety of Arabic cultures is leading the Islamic world to a dangerous path. We all know that not only religion can be used to control masses, ii can also be a dangerous weapon. In America, some will argue, television is used for mass propaganda and it is difficult for the majority to avoid being brainwashed by many ideas that they would otherwise have never acquired as individuals. However, an average occidental still gets to make SOME choices about what morality should be; they chose whether they’ll be for or against abortion, whether they’ll be against slavery or not, whether they’ll vote for a black man or not.
It is possible to speak with a Muslim about what we dislike in Islam, without him getting angry. I have experienced it myself. It is difficult, however. Even as I was able to converse, I would feel the incredible pain that questioning one’s own identity can inflict on an indoctrinated individual. As we cannot tolerate being racially discriminated, they cannot tolerate negative criticism of Islam; they view is as their culture.
It may be sad to say, for most of us who wish for world peace, but secularism is not going to happen anytime soon in the Arab world. It could never be forced on Muslims. It is completely against their conception of what a religion should be and what place it should have in their life. Through what I have just explained, we can even understand the bottomless frustration of Muslims against non-Muslims when faced with debates like whether or not we should be banning the Burka in public spaces. The same issue arises: to us, it’s common sense and required for secularism, to them it’s a slap in the face, not as a Muslim but as an Arab. To us, it's freedom of speech; to them, it's against it. It is an insult to their culture, just as we would react to someone trying to deny our right to have a cultural background, just as we would react to a Muslim telling a White woman that wearing g-strings is degrading and wrong.
How can we possibly achieve a secular society, with Muslims living in it, if we do not agree on whether it’s okay to force someone to act secularly? Aren’t we stuck with the problem of having many kids arguing about who gets to play with the ball, while one of the kids sits on the ball, arguing that it should not be played with in the first place? How flexible can secularism be, without ending up betraying itself?
Can we find a temporary solution? I would like your opinion.
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