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Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angrying it deeply?
Sylph.Spency
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6969
By Sylph.Spency 2010-05-03 15:39:42
Maimed is a terrorist!
Asura.Korpg
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Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-03 15:40:22
Garuda.Mabrook said: I'd like to see what happens when people in any other country get attacked by the strongest mafia in the world... the US government.
Prob call them terrorists too ya?
Maybe couple years down the line I'll bump this thread and say I told you so. They can't be a mafia, mafias (mafiai? mafie? what in the hell would you call a plural mafia???) tend to make money. US government don't.
Fairy.Maimed
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Posts: 348
By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-03 15:45:28
Sylph.Spency said: Maimed is a terrorist!
Hey now Mr. Canadian. Your local pool shark is a terrorist in your eyes :P
lol tell jt his morrigan's robe is a waste for me :D
Asura.Korpg
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Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-03 15:46:25
@ Maimed: Wait, that would be one major retraction on the Islam believe. And then terrorists can't use the excuse of blowing themselves up to kill all infidels like they love to use.
I don't honestly think that every Muslim's life goal is to blow themselves up. But I do believe that they are doing so in the name of their god.
They even say so.
But it seems to me that you don't think so. So here is a little experiment you can do. Go to Israel, go to a busy street, and shout "Praise be to Alla!!" really loud. And watch how many people automatically drop to the ground in fear of an explosion that is about to happen.
But that doesn't happen, now does it?
On a side note: I didn't think you had respect for anyone, or anything. Well, anything that didn't give you a personal ***.
Fairy.Maimed
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Posts: 348
By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-03 15:53:53
I have no interest in even pretending to be muslim, although that sounds like something that'd be fun to do for shits n giggles :X
That last comment intrigues me yet I have no clue what that could possibly be based off of.
Asura.Korpg
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-03 15:57:28
Fairy.Maimed said: I have no interest in even pretending to be muslim, although that sounds like something that'd be fun to do for shits n giggles :X
That last comment intrigues me yet I have no clue what that could possibly be based off of. Yeah, that wasn't a "just for shits and giggles" thing. That will get you killed.
I'm surprised you didn't understand that last comment though, I expressed it to you in your crude terms too. Let me try it in my terms.
You don't respect anyone unless there is something in it for you. But then again, thats not respect, that is using somebody for your own personal advantage.
I don't think you know what respect means, is what I am getting at.
Bismarck.Helixx
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By Bismarck.Helixx 2010-05-03 16:04:34
Asura.Jetzabel said: May I point out, it was only a few hundred years ago that the catholic church was hanging people for disagreeing with their views.
Minutes ago: Muslim fanatic performs a suicide bombing on INFIDELS.
Now who is stuck in the middle ages.
Fairy.Maimed
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 348
By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-03 16:05:20
Disagree. You don't have to be part of my camp for me to respect you.
On an interesting side note: I was watching History International and an architect pointed out that a famous religious landmark was located in a different spot than where both the Muslims and the Jews built their respective temples upon. Funny how despite the evidence provided, both religious leaders basically chose to be willfully ignorant versus acknowledging the evidence he provided as a remote possibility.
That speaks volumes about so-called religious leadership and how imperfect man can be. They're more concerned about protecting beliefs and old customers than open their minds to a possible truth.
Asura.Korpg
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Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-03 16:09:41
Fairy.Maimed said: On an interesting side note: I was watching History International and an architect pointed out that a famous religious landmark was located in a different spot than where both the Muslims and the Jews built their respective temples upon. Funny how despite the evidence provided, both religious leaders basically chose to be willfully ignorant versus acknowledging the evidence he provided as a remote possibility.
That speaks volumes about so-called religious leadership and how imperfect man can be. They're more concerned about protecting beliefs and old customers than open their minds to a possible truth. No, it speaks volumes about how arrogance plays in society.
No, you are wrong *boom*
No, you are wrong *thwack*
No, you are both wrong....*crickets*
Nobody wants to admit that there is a slight possibility that everyone is wrong. Hell, I'm positive that everyone in the world is a nutjob. Does that make me right? No. Am I willing to admit that I'm wrong? Sure. Will I get whacked? Possibly. Do I care? No.
But then again, I'm different than everyone, and proud of it.
Fairy.Maimed
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By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-03 16:10:20
Don't forget, you're an attention *** too :)
Asura.Korpg
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Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-03 16:11:36
Unlike you in what way?
By Trebold 2010-05-03 16:36:56
Odin.Spccdog said: the muslim extremeists hate anyone who is allowed to make their own decision and have freedoms that they dont have its rediculous, and notice i said extremeists not all muslims.
I'd be willing to say that you're actually describing the Muslim purist. It's the people who don't take Qu'ran at its very word who make positive use of it.
Fairy.Maimed
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Posts: 348
By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-03 16:37:20
You stick your nose in every single thread regardless of whether or not you have any value to add. There's a huge difference between how you and I both use the forums. Look at the numerous KORPG related threads, the people who are sick and tired of seeing your face on every thread, and the fact that you honestly seem to believe you're a celebrity on these forums. No post is officially a post without your validation it seems.
Borderline pathetic really. And you know I'm not the only person who believes that.
Fairy.Maimed
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 348
By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-03 16:43:45
Trebold said: Odin.Spccdog said: the muslim extremeists hate anyone who is allowed to make their own decision and have freedoms that they dont have its rediculous, and notice i said extremeists not all muslims.
I'd be willing to say that you're actually describing the Muslim purist. It's the people who don't take Qu'ran at its very word who make positive use of it.
The intention behind the Qu'ran is to learn from its teachings, not its words. People think that living like Muhammad means wearing a beard instead of basically following the golden rule.
The concept of someone dumb enough to think committing rape is okay as long as you went to prayer 5 times a day just baffles me.
Radicals (of every walk of life) tend to stem from those individuals that take the text literally. Unfortunately, I'm not an authority to speak on every major religion but I'm pretty certain if you break it down, it's common sense that anyone with half a conscious can follow.
By Trebold 2010-05-03 16:47:23
Fairy.Maimed said: Do you realize the translation of text can be inefficient? This is why different versions of the Bible don't say the same exact thing, and you get all these funky variations of religion.
Regardless, my point isn't in defending the text. I was muslim-born into a middle eastern household but I am an atheist. My issue lies with idiots who think my only goal in life is to blow myself up in a stadium and score as many casualties as possible.
Funny thing is, I joke about it with friends. Hell I take a joke pretty well and we talk massive ***, but there's a big difference between kidding around and legitimate ignorance.
You honestly seem to believe that we're all walking timebombs because Allah says so. That bugs me.
Most muslims are idiots, they blindly follow their religion because they don't know any better. The same rule applies to 95% of the so-called religious people on this planet. I have no respect for anyone that can't intelligently speak about their faith, much less do any actual study on what they supposedly believe in.
Anyway, I'm going to stop sidetracking myself. My only issue is with you stating all muslims are terrorists. That's *** up and yet it proves the point that closed-minded individuals will continue to feed the flames of ignorance that pit idiots against one another.
I never really cared for you as a forums personality but I completely lost any respect for you as a person, not that you give a ***.
Then you'd be saying that most Muslims are also reading a faulty "word of god." Because actually most Muslims don't speak Arabic. I'll give you the name of one of the Muslims who was literate in Arabic, though. Osama Bin Ladin.
I'm interested to hear how and why you left the faith. If it's too personal for you to answer, may I ask it be done in PM. Also, I promise I will keep your reasons for doing so to myself. I'm genuinely interested in subject, and not simply trying to spew hate, but rather I'm confounded as to how anyone can believe it, as it seems that you were too.
Gilgamesh.Hysoka
Serveur: Gilgamesh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 49
By Gilgamesh.Hysoka 2010-05-03 16:53:01
It's all about respect.
As a North African muslim, i dont understand something : Why would people talk, try to analyze, criticize the way we live and believe in god, when we dont give a ***about what other cultures/religions do/think ?
Why would i wake up and ask myself "why can't the Pope get married ? it's weird ! Christianism doesnt respect the men's rights !" ? Why ? no idea, that's prolly why i dont.
No, i dont.
I just respect what others cultures or religion can offer, and will never juge anyone for doint anything based on their faith.
Now why can't the rest of the world leave us alone and respect our culture and beliefs ? Is it that hard ?
I respect that some indian who wouldnt eat beef, i respect that priest can't get married, i respect that jews can't drink wine if it's not kosher wine, and will not judge them for doin that. Try it, it's easy, really.
[+]
Phoenix.Darki
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-03 16:53:48
Bahamut.Shiroyuki said: Quote: That's actually what we're discussing here. Quotes from the Qu'ran turned into Islamic Law. Would you rather me read the Qu'ran and take every word for complete truth? I think I may write a book of complete non-sense and ask religious people to take every word as absolute truth.
I can already guess what their reaction will be... lol, the same reaction to what I see in their book.
I won't even bother myself and reply that.
This thread is full of ***.
Seconded, we need more trolls
Seraph.Rafik
Serveur: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1051
By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-03 16:56:00
Take care of your own radicals/extremist, instead of just doing nothing about it.
edit the Muslim silent majority are against these types of people, but are not willing to do anything about it
If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem
Those radicals/extremist are the ones that give you a bad name.
Phoenix.Darki
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-03 16:56:50
Ramuh.Sekundes said: Sylph.Beelshamen said:
I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh everytime this "motivational" is posted. You're ridiculizing yourself.
It's a common misconception that Epicurus was an atheist. He was by no means an atheist.
He was a Deist, he believed in gods, just not your personal Christian god.
Also, if "god" created a perfect good world, then what's the point in living in it?
why not live in this world, we have all we need to make it paradise! no need to sacrifice oneself for an illusion!
By Trebold 2010-05-03 16:58:16
Phoenix.Darki said: Ramuh.Sekundes said: Sylph.Beelshamen said:
I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh everytime this "motivational" is posted. You're ridiculizing yourself.
It's a common misconception that Epicurus was an atheist. He was by no means an atheist.
He was a Deist, he believed in gods, just not your personal Christian god.
Also, if "god" created a perfect good world, then what's the point in living in it?
why not live in this world, we have all we need to make it paradise! no need to sacrifice oneself for an illusion!
This.
Phoenix.Darki
Serveur: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9949
By Phoenix.Darki 2010-05-03 17:06:29
Trebold said: Phoenix.Darki said: Ramuh.Sekundes said: Sylph.Beelshamen said:
I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh everytime this "motivational" is posted. You're ridiculizing yourself.
It's a common misconception that Epicurus was an atheist. He was by no means an atheist.
He was a Deist, he believed in gods, just not your personal Christian god.
Also, if "god" created a perfect good world, then what's the point in living in it?
why not live in this world, we have all we need to make it paradise! no need to sacrifice oneself for an illusion!
This.
FFXI is paradise, I bet god wasn't creative enuff to make his own up there.
(humor people please dont lash out at me)
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23653
By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-05-03 17:11:35
Fairy.Maimed said: You stick your nose in every single thread regardless of whether or not you have any value to add. There's a huge difference between how you and I both use the forums. Look at the numerous KORPG related threads, the people who are sick and tired of seeing your face on every thread, and the fact that you honestly seem to believe you're a celebrity on these forums. No post is officially a post without your validation it seems.
Borderline pathetic really. And you know I'm not the only person who believes that.
I've seen you troll many many topics.
Pot kettle etc etc.
[+]
By Trebold 2010-05-03 17:18:00
Garuda.Mabrook said: Seraph.Rafik said: If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem
Yet you post on a forum that has nothing to do with religion/politics and demanding a solution, safe and sound behind your computer.
I applaud your self-righteousness.
It starts with education on a subject. If you fight based on faith alone, you'd be nothing more than.. well, you know ;)
Seraph.Rafik
Serveur: Seraph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1051
By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-03 17:18:14
Garuda.Mabrook said: Seraph.Rafik said: If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem
Yet you post on a forum that has nothing to do with religion/politics and demanding a solution, safe and sound behind your computer.
I applaud your self-righteousness.
I am not demanding anything, just stating the facts.
Why so mad?
To add you have no idea what I have been through, read my other posts in this thread, you might understand a little
Asura.Korpg
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Posts: 7782
By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-03 17:30:32
I think what bothers people about Muslims the most is, there is no camp training people to spread the word in any religion, there is no camp training people to enjoy life, but there are camps in Afghanistan and possibly other places we don't know of that are training radicals.
Islam has the largest radical/rational population in all religions. You can't deny that.
Seraph.Rafik
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Posts: 1051
By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-03 17:31:57
Garuda.Mabrook said: It isn't about what me or you have been threw.
The title alone gives people the impression that this thread is against ALL Muslims.
Weather or not I agree with every single thing anyone says here from Muslims to non-Muslims will make no difference to anyone. Because at the end of the day your still behind your computer doing nothing but talking ***.
And no I'm not mad, why would I be?
Like I said before, I am, just like you, behind my computer as well.
Did you really read what I wrote? I say something derogatory about the religion? Simply saying that I am talking ***, where I am not makes you look like a fool.
Truth hurts, and if you cant it take get out of the kitchen
Seraph.Rafik
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Posts: 1051
By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-03 17:37:51
Garuda.Mabrook said: Stupidity hurts more than truth though.
Oh I am stupid now, I see ... thanks
Resorting to calling people names now.
This is why people cant have peaceful discussions about religion.
I think I figured out how it is possible that the large majority of people from the Muslim world would be so profoundly offended when their Prophet is criticized or made fun of. I mean, to them, it could very well look obvious, yet it seems they do not really understand why either. A lot of them just accept that someone would be killed for depicting the prophet Mohamed, even though we ask them why, in a way that we feel cannot be argued with. How is it possible that someone would be hated for openly making fun of something as mundane as religion, we ask? I think I can reasonably explain why they would accept the idea, believe it or not. I want to know what is to be done if we're going to help these people stop feeling so persecuted and if we’re going to finally gain the right to criticize Islam, as it should be, without threatening the people in it. The answer, I think, lies in our perceptions of what religion is versus where it should stand in relations to ethnicity. Help me out.
First, it is difficult to argue against the idea that Islam, to this day, is majorly against the advancement of secular culture. It is associated so directly to what I would refer, for lack of a better word, Arabian culture, that criticizing a religion tied so closely with it, appears (at least from my personal experience) to insult them, as people. Another factor to consider is how Muslims, despite their divisions, have the strength in numbers to lead us into being cautious about criticizing Islamic beliefs, even if it shouldn’t be so. Any critic, whether it is well intentioned or backed with incredibly solid and logical arguments, seems to backfire when it is targeted at Islam. More than often, it seems to be giving more reasons to feel justified, leading Islamic countries to cocoon themselves from modern secular culture. Unlike other ethnicities that are also extremely tied to their religion; the Jews, for example, the fact that they’re over a billion, somewhat gives them the mental ability to feel universally justified. It’s as if any strong criticism of Islam was a threat to their identity, integrity and intelligence, even when it’s not...
In a secular view, insulting religion doesn't necessarily equate to racial discrimination, and the fact that our western culture systematically ignores this, is the key point that prevents the western world from understanding why Muslims would be so offended. I have come to realize that a lot of Muslims try to say it, but it seems they do not understand what I am writing here, at least not enough to put it into the proper words that would make us understand. My goal is to help us both come to understand, through careful yet fortunate observations which I feel have led me to grasp some of this intricate psychology.
Let’s think for a second about this analogy: Let’s compare some white guy shouting racist comments towards blacks to your average non-Christian openly criticizing Christianity. Which is the worst, in the eyes of the average American, or European? Racism, isn’t it? Racism is undoubtedly the worst of those two things, at least according to our modern secular values. This is not to say that racism has been eradicated from the Western world, far from it. But even for the most racist among us in North America, it is extremely discouraged to make a racist statement publicly. It is not viewed as acceptable at all.
Have you ever seen a single Arabic person and expect him not to be a Muslim? It's as if their religion has so much grasp that it's nearly impossible for an Arabic person to not be a Muslim. But why doesn’t anyone seem to question this fact? Isn’t it fishy, considering that religion should be a choice? In fact, Muslims, in Muslim countries, are taught, from childhood, that the punishment for apostasy is death. The indoctrination is done to them so early in their life, and in such a strong and unquestionable way, that it achieves terrific results; it is almost irreversible. To them this is a good thing; to us, it’s just wrong.
In my opinion, the fact that Islam, as a religion, has been able to keep such a strong grasp, to this day, on the lives of the almost entirety of Arabic cultures is leading the Islamic world to a dangerous path. We all know that not only religion can be used to control masses, ii can also be a dangerous weapon. In America, some will argue, television is used for mass propaganda and it is difficult for the majority to avoid being brainwashed by many ideas that they would otherwise have never acquired as individuals. However, an average occidental still gets to make SOME choices about what morality should be; they chose whether they’ll be for or against abortion, whether they’ll be against slavery or not, whether they’ll vote for a black man or not.
It is possible to speak with a Muslim about what we dislike in Islam, without him getting angry. I have experienced it myself. It is difficult, however. Even as I was able to converse, I would feel the incredible pain that questioning one’s own identity can inflict on an indoctrinated individual. As we cannot tolerate being racially discriminated, they cannot tolerate negative criticism of Islam; they view is as their culture.
It may be sad to say, for most of us who wish for world peace, but secularism is not going to happen anytime soon in the Arab world. It could never be forced on Muslims. It is completely against their conception of what a religion should be and what place it should have in their life. Through what I have just explained, we can even understand the bottomless frustration of Muslims against non-Muslims when faced with debates like whether or not we should be banning the Burka in public spaces. The same issue arises: to us, it’s common sense and required for secularism, to them it’s a slap in the face, not as a Muslim but as an Arab. To us, it's freedom of speech; to them, it's against it. It is an insult to their culture, just as we would react to someone trying to deny our right to have a cultural background, just as we would react to a Muslim telling a White woman that wearing g-strings is degrading and wrong.
How can we possibly achieve a secular society, with Muslims living in it, if we do not agree on whether it’s okay to force someone to act secularly? Aren’t we stuck with the problem of having many kids arguing about who gets to play with the ball, while one of the kids sits on the ball, arguing that it should not be played with in the first place? How flexible can secularism be, without ending up betraying itself?
Can we find a temporary solution? I would like your opinion.
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