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Rdm/nin HNM tanking advice can i haz it?
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4554
By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-04-12 23:12:11
Quote: 2. OLD: "Hmmm i'll wait till he attacks me again and slip an ichi in between attack rounds" NEW: "I'll cast now, possibly avoiding a hit and getting ichi recast started again that much faster."
This seems like a benefit to SIR but overall pretty unnecessary unless the mob in question depletes shadows at an alarming rate.
Quote: 3. I just claimed cerberus... solo... and the closest member is ten minutes away. No matter i'll just sit here shuffling shadows and stoneskin whilst spamming slow and cures till the LS shows up. (pop meds when low on mp)
Can solo hold Cerb really easily even without this. Barely more difficult than a standard solo target (and you have Convert for low MP!)
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Serveur: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-04-12 23:27:02
Well, you could be right. Been AGES since I fought Cerb but I don't remember him being particularly challenging (granted I have never tried to solo hold); how on earth do you make the inventory space for it? <_<
Lakshmi.Phaffi
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By Lakshmi.Phaffi 2010-04-12 23:30:17
doesnt spell interruption rate have a hard cap of 50%?
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Serveur: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-04-12 23:34:11
Nope, can achieve 100% SID. Need 102% in gear/merits/Aquaveil to do it though.
Serveur: Asura
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By Asura.Izilder 2010-04-13 06:12:17
1. 15 min Aquaveil ftw!
2. If you dont have firecarol available - i dont worry about equipping my barfire set (too inconsistent)- just go magic set till you have a brd around. (example is tiamat specific)
Valefor.Argettio
Serveur: Valefor
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By Valefor.Argettio 2010-04-13 06:24:24
Just to elaborate on what others have said about resist builds.
Basically they either work or don’t. If you can get enough resist for the mob in question then they are the most effective way of mitigating magic damage as a full resist will be near single digit damage. But if you fall short of the mark (even by a relatively small amount) then you will take nearly full damage. So unless you have a decent WHM (or cast your own Bars) a BRD and the right amount of gear, they aren’t worth it.
Where as MDT/MDB builds work progressively, so as the set gets better you take less damage, but even 1 piece of Coral/Merman will start to reduce damage. They are nice an predictable and easy to evaluate, but at best you are only going to mitigate 50-60% of the damage (capped MDT = 50%, a bit of MDB can add up to another 10%).
Serveur: Asura
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By Asura.Despayn 2010-04-13 21:34:13
Holy *** Deadwing just gave me a massive hard-on. I *** knew I was right about Blind II way back when we had that argument, btw. Know your place ***.
At any rate, @Raen; Cerb does hit pretty hard, and at a high rate. Being able to hold it for 10 minutes solo is actually quite impressive. Then again, each his own. Hitting a spell and then letting spellcast do the rest isn't exactly what I consider "skilled", but I won't argue.
MDT is pretty important and any serious tank should consider in getting one if they don't own one already. Who needs PLDs etc.
Ramuh.Dasva
Serveur: Ramuh
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-04-14 03:36:49
Personally I haven't even meritted blind II. That being said I use blind all the time and it makes a noticeable difference on anything that doesn't cap acc on you to begin with no matter how much evasion gear you put on. Wonder if anyone has actuallly seriously tried to make blind II work. And then actually taken the time to try and figure out how well it did. Since it's not as obvious as say paralyze proccing or slower attack speed
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By Asura.Izilder 2010-04-14 05:19:30
Asura.Despayn said: Then again, each his own. Hitting a spell and then letting spellcast do the rest isn't exactly what I consider "skilled", but I won't argue.
so its clear - spellcast makes your more efficient - that's all nothing more, spellcast is useless if the player has no or little "skill and experience"
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Caitsith.Mahayaya
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By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2010-06-22 11:48:26
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By Graywolfe813 2010-06-22 13:57:28
Isn't this discussion kinda... Dead, now? Any sort of serious tanking is going to be very difficult for RDM now, since they stripped our hate tools.
Serveur: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1
By Fenrir.Graywolfe 2010-06-22 20:33:02
/sigh
Sorry, there wasn't a necro bump warning when I responed this, and haven't found a way to edit my previous remark. Anyways, previous statement can and should be ignored.
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Phoenix.Airbag
Serveur: Phoenix
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By Phoenix.Airbag 2010-08-21 12:25:13
Asura.Deadwing said: Stumbled upon this reading old forum posts, yes rdm tanking is dead. As to why they killed it, I've given it some thought and I think between the changes to aquaveil and added fast cast trait/gear they realized with rdm casting an uninterruptable ichi faster than paladin can cast an interruptible ni that rdm tanking would eventually eclipse their beloved paladin.
I personally think they went about it the wrong way and should have changed the CE on the hate spells only for 75+. After-all a level 75 rdm tank would be harmless against their new higher level endgame stuff right? ^.-
Anyway, its still possible to setup a level 1 (or 30) character in some places and spam low mp cures on him for hate. The character has to be within 20 yalms of the mob and also has to be safe which isn't an easy combo to find, really only possible at nidd tia and khim and I suppose absolute virtue...
I dont really know any plds who have that much trouble putting up ichi
Alexander.Temaruma
Serveur: Alexander
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By Alexander.Temaruma 2010-08-21 12:25:42
Also since when was pld the best tank :O
Serveur: Ifrit
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-08-21 12:31:16
Asura.Deadwing said:
Anyway, its still possible to setup a level 1 (or 30) character in some places and spam low mp cures on him for hate. The character has to be within 20 yalms of the mob and also has to be safe which isn't an easy combo to find, really only possible at nidd tia and khim and I suppose absolute virtue...
Yet the effort required to do that is pointless when you could just bring another job to tank.
Ramuh.Dasva
Serveur: Ramuh
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-08-21 15:55:22
Asura.Deadwing said: Stumbled upon this reading old forum posts, yes rdm tanking is dead. As to why they killed it, I've given it some thought and I think between the changes to aquaveil and added fast cast trait/gear they realized with rdm casting an uninterruptable ichi faster than paladin can cast an interruptible ni that rdm tanking -cast time caps 50% at least from fast cast. Not sure if rdm/nin can get there though it should be able to get at least 48%.
Which means the best you can do is get is 2 sec ichi and ni cast in 1 sec with 0 fast cast gear.
Anyways while they only have lol enspell 2 and /nin spells for CE it doesn't mean you can't tank with help. Get dual rdm/nin tanks with a couple of blu/thfs or just low hate DDs (pet jobs) and it should work.
This works well because not only does it require to extra effort (unless you count hitting TA with SA lol) but blu/thf and smn are often used good DDs on hard stuff anyways
Serveur: Valefor
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By Valefor.Lisamarie 2010-08-23 23:55:44
Could also RDM tank via cure cheats, Dasva. We all know RDM has access to massive -HP and +HP armor as well as decent +enmity armor, cure4, cure 3, convert.
Edit: not as good as pre-nerf, but it's still doable for those die-hard RDM tanks.
Serveur: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-08-24 00:12:28
Pretty sure that was discussed. It's horribly inefficient CE gain and will only get less efficient as time goes on. You'd burn through your entire MP pool very quickly and still be a ways off from CE cap.
Ramuh.Dasva
Serveur: Ramuh
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-08-24 00:28:20
Unless you had lower lvl mules and such to cure that you could keep out of AOE range but within curing range
Cerberus.Eugene
Serveur: Cerberus
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2010-08-25 03:19:34
Valefor.Lisamarie said: Could also RDM tank via cure cheats, Dasva. We all know RDM has access to massive -HP and +HP armor as well as decent +enmity armor, cure4, cure 3, convert.
Edit: not as good as pre-nerf, but it's still doable for those die-hard RDM tanks.
true, but its 1) horribly inefficient ce gain per cure as it is, and 2) its only going to become more inefficient as level cap goes up (ohi September) because enmity gain per cure goes down as the cure target goes up.
there are no diehard rdm tanks, there are only foolish people keeping a dying art (and thread) alive.
IF someone wanted to argue that it was still doable, they would either have to concede that its limited to highly controlled situations (blu/thf fights and a few others where rdm can get away with /pld or /drk), or rdm loses a ton of what made it attractive (can no longer fulltime terras).
Ramuh.Dasva
Serveur: Ramuh
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Posts: 40469
By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-08-25 03:32:53
I think what made rdm most attractive was she shear survivibilty. Stoneskin was basically an extra shadow or 2. Could make can't be interrupted sets. Had enough fast cast to get ichi and other spells off alot easier not to mention it made capping -recast ALOT easier. It provided it's own slow II, haste, refresh para etc. Great -pdt and mdt sets not to mention MDB trait.
I mean it's hate wasn't the fastest but it got there and kept it. And it's lack of dmg taking helped prevent the loss.
But yeah now it gets jack worth hate and under normal circumstances wont keep it at all. So basically needs blu or sam/thfs or like a lvl 10 mule that keeps equining 2 astral rings then a cassie earring to cure.
Though I havent tested I'd imagine a rdm with access to Sanguine Blade should be able to tank similarly to how plds do now. Yeah no flash or jas but still has higher surivivability and can spam ws that if properly geared will do good dmg on harder targets kinda like atonement does for pld. Along with much more cure cheating than a pld could dream of. And now with the aquaviel update a rdm should never get interupted out of a ichi or stoneskin cast from just dmg.
It takes alot more set up (and or ALOT more gearing) but in theory a rdm can still tank
Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2010-08-25 03:42:54
Not sure rdm could get the accuracy and attack needed to tank with sanguine blade but i suppose anything is possible. I doubt its going to hit 750 though :/
Ramuh.Dasva
Serveur: Ramuh
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-08-25 03:47:37
Cerberus.Eugene said: Not sure rdm could get the accuracy and attack needed to tank with sanguine blade but i suppose anything is possible. I doubt its going to hit 750 though :/ Depends on your support and highly on your targets int. And of course part of the problem right now is rdm NEEDS swd skill gear to even use it so you can't gear for it. Unlike atonement other people can seriously boost your dmg. And abyssea buffs can make it do some scary dmg.
I have hit over 1k with it on blu without food day/weather or outside support. I've been doing 400-600 on it without doing things like using any kind of pertinent buff or debuff.
I can make up a set and see what that should do. Actually I think I will
Ok so im new to tanking HNM's on any job, and since rdm is my only one til pld goes from 60-75, i'd love some advice.
So far i have a basic idea on what to cast, gear, and so on. However, gearing up and making macros is far from actually doing it.
I am going to post my macro's and gear sets, meaning this will be a slightly long read, so stop now if you dont care.
The reason for this is i joined a new HNM shell and have been asked to co tank HNMs on my rdm/nin, so please bare with my ignorance and just give constructive tips or just feel free to rip my gear apart lol.
I have windower, but do not use spellcast, someone is going to help me set it up soon hopefully as im clueless there.
My macro setup looks like this
control 1-10
1- refresh me, 2- blank, 3- haste me, 4- cure III me, 5- Stoneskin, 6- cure IV me, 7- convert, 8- sleep1, 9 sleep2, 0- dispel.
ALT 1-10 is
1- blind, 2- ichi, 3- Ni, 4 blank, 5- slow II, 6- phys dmg taken set, 7- idle set, 8- mag dmg taken set, 9- blank, 0- blank
At first i thought to make blind, sleep 1/2 and dispel very close to each other, and i still might change that, but sleep 1/2 are in the same spot as all my other rdm macros, so im familiar with it, so is ichi/Ni, so again, familiar.
Blind is in alt1 because i figure ill be casting that at least 6-7 times per minute, more if i can, but hopefully at least that many times.
As you can see, im missing several macro slots, so please let me know if im missing some important spells, i thought about aquaveil in there, not sure though.
Ok, gear
for blind, sleep 1/2, dispel (cure III and 4 a bit different but not much) i cast in this
main/sub - Macuahuitl +1 x2
range
ammo - there is a ammo slot with enmity+1, cant remember what its called.
Head - af+1 head (when spell cast is done ill start in af+1 and end spell in turban)
neck - harmonious torque
ear1 - loquacious
ear2 - eris'+1
body - relic (same with head, when spell cast is done, ill be starting in this and ending in goliard)
hands - dusk gloves, (fairly clueless as to what else is out there that would benefit me)
ring1 - mermaid's ring
ring2 - another clueles slot for this, any tips are appreciated
back - cerb mantle
waist - swift belt (doubtfull the 3 enm from warwolf will outweigh 4% haste, however blinds recast isnt long at all, so maybe warwolf for blind, and swift for sleep 1/2 and dispel?) not sure
legs - another duh slot, havent made my ASA legs yet, so might go haste here, if not just an idle piece?
feet - dusk
i have +4 enmity merits for when pld hits 75, if im doing that wrong let me know, other slot is 4/4 crit hit, i dont have a spell interuption set, and hadnt planned on making one due to inventory (have satchel and all other avail, just have 7 75's)
That is my blind, sleep 1/2, and dispel macro list, it gives me +16 enmity, 18% haste (when spellcast is working), and 21% fast cast, gear wise.
For ichi/ni you can pretty much see my gear, will be all the FC and haste i got.
For phys dmg taken set, i have darksteel body, hands and legs+1, umbra, jelly, terras. I figure tp isnt that important, so if im in a O shit moment and need to actually use this set, wont be the end of the world to swap to terras.
for MDT and MDB i will be using this
ranged- lamia kaman+1
head - coral visor+1
neck - errm, any ideas?
ear 1/2 - mermans
body - coral scale mail +1
hands - coral finger gaunt +1 ( or i can use relic hands)
ring 1/2 merman's
back - lamia mantle +1
waist - dont have anything here yet, ideas are appreciated
legs - coral cuisses +1 or crimson legs
feet - coral greaves +1
that puts me at -25% MDT and an additional 6 MDB, any more ideas also appreciated.
Ok, few questions. How often are you able to actually use composure and rebuff mid fight, cause i was thinking maybe when shaddows just go up pop it, fresh/haste and back off, but thinking and actual execution are different things.
Aquaveil, is it worth it w/o any gear/merits to back it up, i mean recasting it past the first time it wears.
Stoneskin, when its broken, should i recast it mid fight? with fast cast gear its not horrible, and im hoping with a co tank ill have time, but ya, hope schmope.
Cure IV cheat set. I have been looking at a similar set ill use on pld, +hp, cure, back to normal for some quick hate, however from what i understand, thats mostly a pld thing, enmity wise we dont need to do that because of slp 1 and 2/dispel. Also more inventory than i have i think, but ya, maybt its worth it.
idle set, i will probably wont be idling a lot when tanking, i plan on blinking like a christmas tree, but ill still probably slap on PDT and refresh/regen pieces and chill.
I had a few other questions, but now im forgetting them. Please bare in mind im very new at this, but am willing to go the extra mile to make it work, or eat dirt trying :)
I also need more practice as far as cancelling Ni for ichi. I know that sounds dumb, but with so much fast cast, and after playing nin, thf, mnk for so many years, its hard to get used to. What % are you usually cancelling your last Ni for ichi at? It seems like with just casting ichi with no shaddows up, it was firing at around 45%, maybe a bit more.
However, it seems like thats waaaay too late to cancel my last Ni shaddow. Optimal idea is to have the mob take the last one, but im going to say i think im in for a lot of double attack. % you guys are canceling at?
Ill be co tanking mainly Khimi, faff/nid, behemoth, turtle, stuff like that, im very new, so please, tips hints tricks, gear suggestions are greatly greatly needed.
Thank you if you read this whole wall O text, sorry if your eyes have fallen out.
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