Hello, Would You Be Willing To Help Settle A Bet?

Point is, all you need is a singular brd to make hasso better than haste samba in a party with a DD dnc. And it's not just a little better, it's a lot better.

Your argument is "The gimper the party, the better dnc does in comparison!"

@Veg (my quote button won't work >.>) Yeah I was plugging in the prior haste instead of the total haste in your formula, you're right. Less work for me now. xD

[ 1 / ( 1 - newhaste ) - 1 / ( 1 - oldhaste ) ] /[ 1 / (1 - oldhaste ) ]

God this is messy to look at I'm gunna rearrange it.

[1/( 1 - newhaste )- 1/( 1 - oldhaste )]/[1/(1- oldhaste)]=

(1/(1-newhaste))1/(1-oldhaste)) - (1/(1-oldhaste))1/(1-oldhaste)=

(1/(1-newhaste))*(1-oldhaste) - (1/(1-oldhaste))*(1-oldhaste)=

(1-oldhaste)/(1-newhaste) -1= should kill any mistypes or whatever

Sorry I edited it to be 30 so it matches refresh cycle to. That is the only place I think I forgot to change to 30 though. And the numbers all reflect that 30 was used

Yep. Exactly. You don't always have the most optimum setup. Well maybe you do. But not everyone is so elitest about there xping

Don't think you rearranged it correctly

Old haste = 25, new haste = 50

(1-25)/(1-50)-1 = -.5102 >.>

(1-.25)/(1-.5)-1= .75/.5 -1= 1.5-1=.5

My point still stands.

Have brd? Hasso > saberdance by a long shot

Don't have a brd? Dnc will most likely have to contribute with healing or everyone else is going to have to hold back.

k, didn't account for the decimals.

Ahh, numbers!

Wasn't hasso only winning by like 43 to 38% or something?

My point that I can cure just fine still stands as well. (btw since we are doign dnc my scenario of having a DD /nin completely works hell having several dncs really cuts down on curing even if they aren't doing any)

Also I think you forgot 1 major thing in all that. That dnc is most likely gunna have -20% from DW as well. While I know we were comparing hasso to saber dance but really its something all the dncs are most likely gunna sub and regardless of amount of haste can up your attack frequency by 25%.

Holy motherfucking overcomplicated formula. For the record, this simplifies to

( newhaste - oldhaste ) / ( 1 - newhaste )

which is much less prone to mistakes. It's also equivalent to Raenryong's preferred formula

( x / 100 - ( x + y ) )

where x is the amount added and y is your old haste level and x and y are whole numbers instead of decimals (50% haste = 50 rather than .50). Use whichever you like better.

I didn't know about any other ones until today, I'm slow. :(

@Das
49 to 38
and DW is totally independent to this. Has 0 to do with hasso, double attack, nor the comparison between the two. Throwing that in may as well just throw in everything from both jobs including jumps if its drg, up to 160 tp meditates if sam, retaliations if war, ect.

Hey, nothing wrong with picking up a little knowledge as you go! I just wish Failure had reduced it to simplest form rather than leaving it in such a messy extended form.

Technically double attack is totally independent of hasso. In fact DW comes closer to being related to hasso really. But they do all effect attack frequency directly. Those others only really affect it indirectly. Not to mention effects that are always up vs ones that are only sometimes up or just 1 time use. Though it's not like dnc doesn't have any other tricks to use.

yes, it is independent. I never said it wasn't. The discussion was that when dd/sam is in a party w/ DNC that when the sam uses hasso, they will get a higher % increase in damage than when the DNC uses saber dance.

Edit: and the only reason that even came up is because when I said that dd benefits more from haste (because they mentioned how fast dnc gets tp w/ haste 21% in gear, double marches ect) than the dnc does because of hasso. Then someone replied "well dnc gets more of an increase from saber dance than DD gets from hasso" which was incorrect, in the situation that THEY chose (the double marches, haste samba, haste ect)

I know Vegetto's probably leaving it out deliberately for simplicities' sake, since it's safe to assume he knows it full well, but you're assuming a hell of a lot for DNC DDing in terms of sheer acc % when comparing Saber build vs a Hasso Two-Hander. Best case scenario at 23~25% Haste on DNC you have compromised acc gear for haste to the point you're going to have to at very least Pizza, even at 8/8 Dagger+ full Closed Position, assuming the minor miracle that everyone conga-lines in front of the Colibri all the time.

Not to mention the fact that a fairly well geared Corsair has a comparative haste and Double Attack rate to even 5/5 Saber Dance over time. Not saying that COR beats DNC for DD... wouldn't be a huge difference mind you, even taking Reverse Flourish into account, just that 35% or so Double Attack is being massively overestimated when compared to Hasso's benefits.

Sushi. Already eating it anyway, make use of that excess accuracy and stack Haste like a boss. There should be no compromise in your hitrate.

I wouldn't bring acc as a dnc problem especially with all those things you added.

Sam has 240 base polearm at 75 and gets +10 from hasso

a dnc has 256 dag. +22 acc from accuracy bonus 2 and if we were gunna assume closed position up to 15 more acc. That puts dnc a 41acc higher nekkid (not counting dex or food) and while sure some of sam haste gear will do more for acc then pretty much all of dncs haste gear and sams will get more from dex though pretty sure dncs have more.

Not really. Cor can only get 21 haste (no latents), while dnc can get 26 or 25 if they are DWing.
It seems you have a misconception about 5/5 saber dance. That is 30-50% double attack not 35%.

As far as double attacking goes well at best a cors war roll will do 24% (thats an 11 with a war in pt or lucky with the relic)

Last time I checked 24% doesn't even touch 30-50%. Not to mention it is only 12% for lucky roll with non pt bonus

That is incorrect, the definition of constant returns is a very well defined economics term. It has to do strictly with input and output, not the relative value of the return based on the previous tier's value.

Still, I know you know what I meant and was trying to say. Adding DA is going to be a constant increase to the number of hits yes, but the increase to your total damage will be a lower percent.

As for the technical term, it doesn't concern me, as long as the concept I was trying to show gets across.

Swing and a miss for reading comprehension yet again. The return with respect to total DoT increases for Haste and decreases for DA. Never mentioned constant returns, so that's irrelevant. Being facetious and maintaining strict economic definitions when the meaning was made clear is pointless.

If we're going to talk unmerited polearm, then we must also speak of unmerited dagger.

I have polearm merits and as sam, i can average 92-93% hitrate on a bird parse w/o sushi, madrigal, or hunter's roll. While DNC CAN do this with meat, they would sacrifice far too much haste gear to do so. For example, you're not going to cap acc on birds w/ dnc w/ a raparee harness w/o acc food.
DW'ing has 0 to do with the amount of haste they can get. DW is not haste is should not be treated as so. They are independent from each other. DW is exponential w/ other DW gears and haste is exponential w/ other haste gears, but DW is not exponential w/ haste gear and haste is not exponential w/ DW gear

Sure, I understand what you were trying to say. Its just that I have seen people make that same mistake over the past few years when referring to Double Attack. When you explain the math to them and how increasing, decreasing, and constant returns is really defined some people get it right away, but most people do not. So I've turned into a sort of spokesperson, lol.

@ Night Well, yes, clearly sushi is going to give you 95%+, but at the sake of compromising you as a DD vs the 2 handers with more Haste eating attack food. Best case scenario for a DNC DD is eating Pizza and miraculaously being ALWAYS in front of the Colibri, you're never going to pull off 90%+ with full Haste.

I'm assuming as far as gear goes..

Azoth/Adder/blank/Tiph(Tath)
Turban/PCC(Love)/Brutal/Suppa
Raparee/Dusk(+1)/Toreadorx2
Cuch(Forager)/VBelt/Etoile/Dusk(+1)

In terms of a melee haste set on DNC, it's roughly what I have to maximise haste, minus Dusk+1 Hands; if I were to go mad and think fulltime Saberdance DDing was an excellent idea.

If someone can think of an improvement on it and/or cares to run the math, I'm fairly sure even 8/8 dagger 5/5 Closed(I have neither, 4 in Dagger and like 3 in Closed, so I'm honestly estimating here) is needing Pizza to top 90%.

I'm on the side of "Dancer can't DD anywhere near worth mentioning", I'm just trying to give it a fair assesment~best possible case scenario for pure DDing, which is Pizza and hovering around the 90ish% threshold, with the obvious fluctuations from Adder Procs/using Kleos for SC damage purposes.

The COR thing Das, was actually in reference to Joyeuse and/or MKris, with which Dancer either makes useless due to the nature of Saber Dance, or just flat out being unable to use. No Rolls required. I also potentally have ASA Pants that I dont really require for another job to make 24% base COR haste, hell, you could even throw DW on the Wardecors and surpass DNC for attack speed. Horrific waste of a COR body for ACP, but attainable.

Key points:

Have no DA? Add DA, gain Y increase
Have some DA? Add DA, gain Y-x increase, where x > 0

Y > Y-x

Swing and double miss for your reading comprehension. The point was he said Double Attack was an example of decreasing returns, I said its not, its an example of constant returns.

Depends on what you put it into terms of.

If it's put into terms of number of attacks, this is correct. If it's put into terms of percentage of damage dealt, this is incorrect.

That was unmeritted dagger.
Right your saying the amount of acc you have on your haste gear is that much better than the dncs that you can overcome there higher skill and accuracy bonus and since it was thrown in there closed step with just that and hasso and 50% more acc from dex?

A dnc in full 25% haste without gimping there daggers, earrings, and still using rajas can still get +35acc and 11dex. (maybe more with the new stuff since dnc did get some nice new shinies)
I'm gunna let you finish but Airy Buckler says your wrong