BST Should Get Havoc Spiral

Prove me wrong.

I'll wait.

I've long hoped that BST Scythe became part of the meta, but SE also shoe-horned BLM into Scythe as well and didn't invest in it either.

So much for BST front-line DD right?

Bst will never be an on-par-with-other-dds dd. Prove me wrong.

Purulent Ooze.

That was easy, what did I win?

Ah great, you just did 10%, maybe, if you were quick enough to hit macro at 100% and mob lived for >1min which is unlikely unless NM, also assuming it even lands.

What about the other 90%.

Guy said 10% dmg is on par with other DDs lol

I count 10 jobs viable as 'DD'. Put them all in an alliance with full buffs. If the BST takes 10% from the jump, your weight is already carried. The additional melee, debuffs and buffs are all sprinkles. Not to mention KI claiming a large chunk of your allies damage as your own.


I won. Now cough up the weaponskill...

The modern game caters to 6-man parties, of which that group will have an absolute max of 3 DDs (ie: DDx3 BRD COR WHM)

Even in alliance setups, you wont have 10 DDs among the 18 characters. Using the same absolute max of 3 DDs per party, so 9 at max. But if youre doing alliance stuff, you probably want a tanky job in there somewhere, so 8 max. Youll probably want a geo in there too, so 7.

What a clown lol

10% is not "on-par-with-other-dds" dmg. So no.

BRD and COR are likely also doing damage, meaning that you're dividing the damage up amongst 15 or so "DD" jobs, in this theoretical alliance fighting a single mob.

Either way though, if you killed a single mob (Odyssey boss for example) and had 10% on the parse at the end (the parse including 100% of the mob's HP) you would not be considered a good DD.

That said, BST can also melee after they're done doing their Ooze.

Also not every mob is susceptible to Ooze.

Also, nobody is giving credit to the WAR for all the damage their Warcry adds, and we sure as hell know nobody is giving BRD and COR credit for the damage their Songs/rolls add, so KI is totally out of the question (assuming the mob is even in a family that KI can affect).

***tier job. No WS

“***tier job, no WS”

That was my biggest issue when I was doing ML on BST. Deci with Dolichenus is ok, but its an acc mod WS so Fencer is useless. Mistral Axe scales with TP, but its still weak in general. Axe dont have a good crit WS either iirc?

Its either Tauret Evi or Naeg Savage, unless you have a REMP.

As soon as Ranger gets Mistral Axe....I mean that *** is actually THROWING!

Patchwork style. A theoretical alliance where all jobs are represented and the mob has no strength/weakness to any particular job.


None of the current content in the game is really balanced in any manner that doesn't favor certain jobs. If we actually had a community large enough to support the content, BST would thrive.

I mean it kinda depends if we're talking about the singular move or adding damage on top of it. If he just uses the move once and sits on his ***, that's a relatively small contributing to the total fight damage.

Disjoined bosses in dynamis have around 20 million health. A BST starting the fight off with Purulent Ooze knocks off 2 million health instantly. If he then engages and joins in the fight in a full DPS set, he's going to have contributed near the top of full boss DPS over the course of the kill. It would take a "real" DD 20 WS at capped damage to even catch up to the amount of damage the BST took off with one move. So is all relative really. But that's just one example and it's not repeatable in much relevant stuff

Fencer on BST is a tease, but not at all practical to use. Aside from just trying to pick the WS, you get so much more out of an offhand weapon (and can't use Blurred Shield +1 on BST) that it makes it not worth it to single wield and use Fencer at all, outside of mandatory single wield in Sheol Gaol. Ikenga's Axe R30 offhand and foregoing Fencer is prob better than any Fencer build you could put together. But you're still in the situation of having to rely on... Mistral Axe? Still probably going to get better damage out of Doli/Decimation spam than something like Tri-Edge/Ikenga R30 and Mistral.

Axe doesn't have a great crit WS. Rampage is the option if you really want one. STR 50% mod instead of Evisceration's DEX 50%, but fTP 1.0 instead of Evis fTP 1.5. Not the absolute worst, not amazing.

Decimation spam with Doli is pretty much where it's at for physical WS damage, assuming you aren't taking the huge hit in skill to use Naegling/Savage. But that's a big loss, 124 less Sword skill than Axe. Scythe skill loss sucks too, I generally don't wanna give up 56 skill and whatever stats from offhand to use Scythe and a mediocre grip (no Utu for BST either) over DW Axes.

All that being said... saying BST is only good for 10% from a perfectly timed Purulent Ooze is obviously disingenuous. BST isn't going to do as much DPS as a SAM or WAR or something, but you can still add not insignificant damage. With Slug, you're really looking at taking your BST melee DPS and adding up to 10% to that total from Purulent Ooze. Then consider the huge debuff of 33% Def- from Corrosive Ooze for the entire party/alliance. Then Killer Instinct. Really can't just look at a raw DPS number from a parser here to capture the full utility, just like nobody's bringing a BRD solely for the DPS they personally contribute.

I second this assessment. Unless you can exploit light damage weakness, your highest DPS WS is going to come from Savage Blade which is annoying. Decimation can hit hard, but you're probably going to be using Rage if you're solo, which comes at a huge penalty. If you're in a party with max buffs, savage is going to outperform decimation

This is brought up a lot but I think it needs to be framed as an 8% defense down, because what alliance of players can't put together a 25% defense down...?

Count me in the camp of thinking Sheep Rage is overrated for solo. Not only does it have the huge defensive penalty in a situation where you're more likely taking direct hits frequently, but other pets also SC so much better with the master. For Sheep you're doing, what, Decimation or Primal Rend > Lamb Chop for a lv1 Impaction? Bah.

For solo/lowman times, I prefer something like Swooping Zhivago to apply Def-25% with Swooping Frenzy, and you have some decent SC options with Swooping or Pentapeck (particularly for Relic/Mythic). Or just Slug it up, mob Def-33% versus Sheep Rage (player atk+50%/def-50%), and go with whatever WS you like (like Doli/Decimation again).

Fair, but also thinking as my SAM or WAR self, when fighting stuff other than a single NM, it's definitely nice to have some other job using a move that doesn't require me to regularly waste TP on applying something like Tachi: Ageha or Armor Break. And even 8% more def down isn't nothing.

To be clear, I'm absolutely not even saying OMG BST should be taking a DD slot. But when considering precisely how much of a liability it is, just looking at parse numbers isn't giving the whole story.

If fighting more than a single NM, their 10% HP off the top advantage goes right out the window and they go back to being a D-tier DPS job.

If you're fighting a lot of mobs that all share the same family then I guess you could count their KI as being a big boost to the other DDs, but again...nobody counts COR as the best DD in the party because they're supplying rolls so I don't think it's really a fair analysis.

TBF, I don't play with anyone who takes BST seriously so I don't have a measuring stick to compare against, but I feel like there's a reason nobody talks about BST being really strong and a reason there are extremely limited scenarios where it's used, primarily for its pet abilities. If it were a competitive DD, it would be used by someone.

This is also reliant on content. A WAR or SAM isn't reliably landing DEF down on Kalunga every single time, but the slug can't miss.

errrrrmagherdd big epeeeeeen damage is cool but you are comparing apples to oranges when discussing bst vs "DD"

calamity and mistral axe are not ***tier ws's, not to mention bst utility with pet buffs/debuffs. Tri-edge/Ikenga/moonshade +1250tp is quite strong. Sure it's not on par with other "meta" dd's but its utility is nice and its fun to play. Its like saying pup is ***compared to mnk... sure mnk hammers more dps... but pup brings a level of utility that mnk can't.

if you don't like the defense down from sheep rage then use the couerl berserk which is on par with warriors berserk but with zero penalty.

typically being subbed /dnc you also provide 5% ja haste for yourself and party, an additional unresistable defense down on top of ooze via box step. You also aren't stuck /drg to shed hate as you can use snarl.

Not many jobs have the ability to easily apply -46% defense, among a load of other debuffs/buffs and KI.

BST is usually overlooked because no one actively plays it well enough. But to put it into perspective where geomancy debuff is nerfed by 50%(or more in some circumstances) A bolstered frailty is only -41% or so. Not to mention bst contributing actual raw damage over geo.

IMO it is wrong to lump BST within the "DD" group of war,sam,mnk,drk etc.

BST is a Support DD role, sure not of the same caliber of cor or brd, but it does have the ability to bring some handy tools to the table is all I am saying.

Where is the extra 13% coming from? If you are including Box Step for reason, it would 56%.

33% ooze, 13% box step. 46%

Bst should get nerfed. Again.

But yes, BST should get havoc spiral lol just for fun.

Add it to the repertoire of weapon skills to have some fun with like scythe.

Scythe op!

At the risk of saying much the same thing as Myamoto...


Is anyone here saying BST is the best DD in the party? People don't count the COR (or BRD, or GEO, or RDM, or DNC...) as "best DD", but those jobs do still get used because of their additional utility, and they often do contribute some amount of damage in addition to the buffs/debuffs that are the primary reason the jobs are used. BST is the same thing.

BST does not have the same variety of buffs/debuffs as others (though to be fair, for something like COR you're usually only selecting from a small handful of rolls despite having access to 30+), but the big ticket party debuffs from the Slug Oozes are pretty damn strong, and pets can provide other niche utility (most notably leech TP Drainkiss for current endgame purposes). Killer Instinct is also a substantial buff for the party if fighting one of the 7 families where that comes into play.


Of course BST is used primarily for its pet abilities. Just like BRD is used primarily for its songs. Doesn't mean a BRD can't pump out some respectable melee damage when not singing. Again, nobody is using a BST solely because it hits stuff with an axe.

The pet is inherent to the job though, so yeah, of course you'd look to make use of the unique pet abilities when fitting a BST into a party situation. If you just wanted the master's physical DD capability, an Axe WAR would beat an Axe BST. But a WAR doesn't have a pet...

I'm fine with every job not being great for every activity though. That being said, I've made some use out of BST in current endgame, particularly on Sheol Gaol NMs. Of course, it's also good for some solo stuff, fine for ML purposes, and for older content. I'm currently on BST a lot while working on a Mythic, I like BST for Einherjar and Nyzul (did an entire Einherjar clear the other day with just two AoE moves from Bouncing Bertha, that was pretty fun).

This forum sometimes. The thread is obviously a troll and people fell for it.

lol feeeeeeeed the machine!

Those guys dont even ask for quality bait.

Any bait is good for them.