Chango R15 Upheaval Vs Savage

If you're talking about easier playstyle, I don't think it gets a lot easier than Chango/Upheaval and not really needing to worry about AM management. And even SB is easy, it's just going at the correct TP level (and WAR has a huge benefit over other jobs for using Savage, due to Warcry/Savagery TP Bonus).

Not trying to stir up an argument for argument's sake, but I'm legitimately intrigued about Ukon (because I do tend to like Empy weapons, maybe more than most): how are you accounting for Aftermath maintenance on Ukon in an event like Odyssey segment farming (moving around a zone, high number of relatively low HP mobs - would also apply to Divergence and Omen normal mob floors)?

1) You're probably using... 7 or 8 Ukko's Fury just for AM maintenance over the course of a 30min Odyssey run (assuming no weapon changes). That's lower damage WS x7~8, versus something like Chango Upheaval, the weaker Ukon Upheaval, or SB. And your Upheavals with Ukon are also always going to be worse than Chango Upheaval, even for the majority of WS where you can use your "best" WS on the weapon. Does the Empy AM white damage actually make up for that significantly lower WS damage from (a) weaker Upheavals, (b) having to use several Ukko's, and (c) potentially even lower WS frequency (from dealing with having to wait for 3000tp, WS at the right time, etc.)? Any good evidence in favor of the Ukon build that skews more toward white damage?

2) The above also assumed slashing full time. When you you switch to a club/spear/whatever, there is further loss to a build that is relying on AM-up to maximize damage output. Not only did you build TP and use a worse WS to get aftermath, but you might not even get the full AM duration if you switch weapons before it wears (say, you run into a couple blunt-weak families and want to switch to Loxotic). If you were using Chango or Naegling, aside from wiping current TP there's no big loss to swap to another weapon.

3) Are you going for AM3? Or just a quick 1000+ TP Ukko for AM1 the whole time (or maybe the occasional AM2/AM3 just based on happening to have TP at the time)?

4) Some of the timing aspect may be seriously impacted by managing aftermath. You might have AM down with a mob at 80% and want to WS, but you're a couple attack rounds shy of 3000tp and have to wait (whereas, if using Chango... or Naegling... you'd just WS and kill the thing). Or maybe you need to WS for AM, and because Ukko's is weaker it won't kill the mob... whereas a Chango/Upheaval (or Naegling/Savage, or Loxotic/Judgment, etc.) would just kill it. That really dilutes the benefit of Ukko, IMO. Yeah, you might have some AM procs afterwards and kill with white damage, but you're increasing a risk of potentially nasty TP moves.

5) When you're on higher floors, might also be relevant that Upheaval could be better for SC purposes. For instance, close a weaker party member's Savage Blade with Upheaval... for a light SC that probably kills the mob even if the 2 WS don't do the job. Of course, prob not relevant on low floors since the mob is likely to die without SC damage in the first place. To be fair, this also depends on party composition - e.g., Fudo>Ukko (light) a bit better than Fudo>Upheaval (fusion).

I personally have Chango and all relevant Ambu weapons for my WAR, but Ukonvasara is interesting to me. But IMO, you really need the right situation. If it's a zerg where you start at 3000tp (or with AM3 already up), or a long fight on one mob with a big HP pool, it's easier to manage aftermath. It becomes a lot more messy as you run around a zone. And WAR isn't as easy to manage AM than some other jobs: Masa SAM is usually my go-to segment farming job and it's easy to keep AM3 up with meditate and SAM's generally crazy TP gain (and SAM uses best GK WS to apply Aftermath), RNG could Barrage and/or use Double Shot, DRG can do a couple jumps, COR can pop Triple Shot and fire off Quick Draws for some fast TP, DNC can No Foot Rise/Reverse Flourish, etc. WAR is just... waiting on TP all the way up to 3000 by smacking mobs in your normal TP set (perhaps with 600tp from /SAM meditate)? Ugh. That's not tooooo hard to time on a mob that lives a while (build 3000tp as your AM is approaching wearing off), but it can become really obnoxious on stuff like Ody mobs that die fast if you don't get lucky and time it just right.

1. Ukko's Fury at 3000 is not that low damage. It's usually in mid 30k and I had few spikes to 40k+ or even 50k+ (on QA proc). Generally 2-3 AM3 proc will usually be enough to close the gap between damage lost to 3000TP Ukko's instead of 3000 Upheaval.

2. You are right that if you have bad floors for Ukonvasara, when you need to switch between slashing and blunt or piercing on each group, then rebuilding AM3 each time isn't great. Now if you need to rebuild AM3, when it's wearing, then it's not really a problem at all, because white damage to build 3000TP while having AM3 is what you would be doing anyway. The only damage loss then is less damage from 3000TP Ukko, than 3000 Upheaval, but like I said, it's not big. For rebuilding AM3, without having AM3 I use set with really high TP generation (something you would use with Chango). Also first 3000TP I usually build when COR is doing rolls and BRD is singing, so damage potential is pretty low then anyway. I also use Meditate to get that 600TP to help me out (and I generally save and use Meditate every time I need to rebuild AM3 after switching weapons).

3.Always going for AM3. It's fundament of the build.

4. If you have AM3 and build TP for another AM3 and let's say you have 10sec left and 1000TP, you just don't WS and kill mob with white damage alone. I usually try to save Blood Rage for that too (helps with high Ukko's fury too). AM3 rounds with Ukon are often around 15k and you will see common spikes to 25k+ Sometimes you can kill a mob with just white damage before it can even TP move. Building AM3, while having AM3 is also barely risky at all. AM3 set has 41% PDT and high def and meva.

5. Ukon works completely different here. It's hard to imagine, you would need to see it. In a situation when you switch to mob on 4th floor, that someone Savage Bladed (and its not Beastman), you wouldn't WS it at all. You would just hit 2-3 rounds and kill it. Now if you have like 2000TP and you dont want to waste it, you just do Upheaval with <st> (or use from menu) and target mob that is next to the one you are fighting. Because of my EU lag I often do that anyway. I TP on one mob killing it with AM3 and WS everything around it. It limits amount of autotarget delayed switches for me.

In general what makes Ukon efficient here is not wasting much of its DPS. Chango will usually need 2WS to kill something and 2nd Upheaval damage will be in majority wasted, unless you fight beastman. Chango set is also super squishy and first Upheaval usually puts mob under 50% or 25% HP, which can trigger TP move. Ukonvasara AM3 set is very safe and if you fight something like Malboro or Wyvern and want to avoid it use TP move, with Ukonvasara you simply hit few rounds to push it to 50%HP or slightly lower and you Upheaval to finish it off. It's very controlled and safe (I havent had mob TP move me doing it even once across 50 runs). For F4 Beastman Ukon is probably not the best weapon tho. Assuming you have tank doing some strong hate JA, so you not pull hate, self SCing with Chango and switching to Shining One for Lamias is probably a better idea. Depends on mobs surrounding the halo tho, you might just kill them and leave Beastman to 2nd DD and COR/BRD (When I'm on BRD I usually try to focus Lamia with Twashtar and when I'm on COR I try to TP on something and Leaden Mamool on Wivre). If you want to kill only Trolls, you can self SC with Ukon too. Ukko's > Upheaval is light and if you TP to 2000 and has Warcry up for that closing Upheaval, it should be enough to kill.

Even tping in 5/5 sakpata (whcih i normally do) you can 2 shot mobs with chango and not trigger a TP move. I had a run with wyvern and Malb last night and none of them used a TP when I used chango.


Ukon and Chango both work fine. I give edge to Chango because of a lack of AMIII maintenance. Honestly, tons of options will get you the same results for segments.

This is the set I have been using for TP most of the time.

ItemSet 378041

Granted, this is not the correct thread to discuss segment farming or ukon vs chango.

Yeah, it wont happen if only tp feed is from WAR, but if your tank likes to pull 2-3 group of mobs at once and some mobs will build 1000 TP hitting tank, then pushing them below 50% or 25% might trigger TP move.

If you TP in 5/5 Sakpata, then Chango loses a lot of effective DPS if you need to WS twice still. Your cycle time is like 25%+ slower than with Tatenashi/AF3/Flamma.

EDIT: 20% slower for set you posted.

But you shouldn't need to do a 3000 Upheaval? Can WS sooner if using Chango, which will be another several additional WS over the course of a run. And in fact, with Warcry up it's ALWAYS a bit of wasted TP any time you need to get 3000 *actual* TP to apply AM3. As opposed to the Chango WAR who, with Warcry up, can WS immediately at 1000-1550tp to get a 2450~3000tp effective WS (TP Bonus +700 from Savagery/Warcry, +500 from weapon, +250 from Moonshade). IDK about other people here, but I don't find a need to keep Aeonic AM3 up for segment farming.

And you were only talking about comparing that one Ukko to one equal TP Upheaval... Whereas Ukon Upheaval is significantly weaker than Chango Upheaval on EVERY Upheaval, assuming same TP (Aeonic TP Bonus + augment boost to the associated WS). Also assumes 5/5 Upheaval merits for not-Chango WAR, or else the gap grows more.

Without seeing actual numbers, I would assume that the AM3 damage increase over the course of the run maybe ends up... roughly equal to (?) the significantly higher total WS numbers from Chango. And that feels like it might be generous to Ukon/AM3 for argument's sake (but again, I'm not basing that on seeing real data, maybe Ukon white damage is higher than I'm giving it credit for). But if we're talking roughly sidegrade territory here, why even bother taking the higher degree of difficulty approach of Ukon and AM3 management? Just feels like there is less chance of getting unlucky with AM3 timing by using the much simpler approach of Chango.

I certainly appreciate the benefit of AM3 white damage. Even in Odyssey, I frequently see it in practice when using my Masamune (despite Masa SAM being lower white damage than Ukon WAR, it still shares many of the same benefits from the Ukon approach you and Cele described) - but SAM can also more easily get TP for AM3 re-application, using the same WS you're using for max damage anyway.


I mean, that was blown up on page 1 when the Ukon talk began in the first place in what was ostensibly a Chango/Naegling discussion lol. And Segment farming isn't that off base, since it is a realistic use case to talk about an actual activity and comparing weapon options for that particular application.

I do feel like you probably hit the nail on the head with the whole "tons of options to get the same results" comment though. And I generally take the same view as you did: if it all ends up being similar, why bother with the additional complication of having to manage AM3?

That is because I described you what you lose putting AM3 up in Ukon build and gameplay, not against Chango gameplay. With Ukon you will TP to ~2500 anyway and use Upheaval (unless you really want to be safe on some mobs, then you might WS faster).


It could be closer to being true (still probably not. In sheet AM3 Ukon with 2500 Upheavals is significantly higher than Chango using 1000TP+ Upheavals. It's only kinda close with Warcry up) if Chango wouldn't waste lots of that WS damage to overkill mobs (either by doing 2x Upheaval on same mob or WSing mob damaged by BRD or COR to <20%HP).



It might be the case. Ukon AM3 set is almost at 7k DPS with white damage alone (7600 with Blood rage up). This is significantly higher than any melee jobs including Impetus MNK.

EDIT:

Basically for 2 reasons.
1. With EU lag in Shaol C, build that works around melee hits and high tP overflow is the easier build by far. Build that works around WSing asap and WSing a lot and switching targets a lot is not.
2. Seeing mob melts from white damage, especially when you hit two rounds with 25k white damage in a row just feels AMAZING :D

Just some input since I use Ukon for my seg runs.

I'm glad you brought up the points you did so people don't just go out getting the empy thinking I'm going to smash stuff and be awesome. Just like other aftermaths it does require a bit of preemptive thought for maximizing upkeep otherwise the damage is sad face.

One thing I can't stress enough of is abusing Retaliation. In the instances you mentioned (Gaol/Dynamis) I think it's just as much a TP cheat code as the utilities of the other jobs you mentioned. Pre-pull while the tank is gathering mobs I'll provoke one and engage a separate one for the initial 3k build. With 2 targets on me and buffs it's really not as long a slog to 3k TP as you would think.

So this might get some flack because I know it's ruffled feathers with some groups I frequent, but I normally save my Upheavals for a separate target than the one I'm engaged with. Most the times with AM3 active it's overkill by the time I get 2000TP to WS the mob I'm engaged to. I'll hit a nearby target and keep in in succession on different mobs. Chances are you are pulling hate with the WS alone. This is where Retaliation kicks in again. Not only is the TP gain absurd, but with the decent Upheaval damage on a fresh mob there's been many times where mobs just straight up kill themselves on a retaliation proc.

Other than that it's not any more out the normal as other jobs handle their AM3 upkeep. Luckily for Ukon, holding TP for a bit of extra time while AM wears off doesn't hurt your damage output. From personal experience in Gaol, there's not many times AM3 was wearing and I wasn't in a good stance to re-apply.

Mixed resistance pulls are lame, but starting AM3 over from scratch is really not a steep climb as it used to be with the options we have.

Some quick replies to your post:
1) Ukko's isn't as terribad as you make it sound, just inconsistent in wow factor. I'm not the math/spreadsheet guy, but I would say the lower Upheaval dmg~higher white damage definitely compliment each other. Having Chango when I upheaval I'm like whoaa. Having Ukon when my normal attack does 15k I'm like whoaa. Pick a whoaa that works for you.

2) Already mentioned above. /meditate, retaliate, buffs and it really does not feel like rebuilding AM3 is so detrimental to your run.

3) AM3 always or cry because you WS'd at ~2900 something in anticipation. (Wow those suck)

4) Timings and aftermath management just takes trial and error and practice. The more you do it the more you'll get a feel for situations and how to mold around them.

5) On higher floors I don't change up my kill strats at all. The only time I push for skillchains are on agons where Ukkos > Upheaval + the AM3 procs in between are more than plenty.

Hope you find something useful in all this typing.

Looks like we play Ukon in very similar way @Psycosocial :)

Ive used ukon a bunch and Chango a bunch. They both work great, they both parse about the same on segments. If you enjoy ukon, go for it. It works great. I do feel that Chango is better on upper floor beastman though. Basically, tons of weapons will get you the same results on segments. If you are saying Ukon/CHango/etc is significantly better than Ukon/Chango/etc for segments, I would have to dissagree. War has a bunch of weapons that will get the same results on segs. We pulled Wyvern, Leopards and Malbs at the same time. None of them TP moved on me. Most people pull several families at once. Pretty common.


I assume you are not factoring in retaliation with your cycle times? Even if you are worried about the movement speed, you can keep retal up over half the time. And movement gear

Yeah I don't, because it would be really hard to assume right TP gain you would get from it. I admit it could be interesting to try to play Chango same way I play Ukon and just TP on one mob and WS other. You could take advantage of being in 5/5 sakpata and retaliation on 2 mobs.

How are you all determining weapon effectiveness?

WS frequency? WS potency? DPS? Total damage over the run? % of damage compared to peers?

Just because we don't know how to factor in Retaliation TP gain/White damage gain, doesnt mean we get to just ignore it.

Since Retaliation is used on seg farms, your calculations for DPS/Cycle Time/Cycle Damage comparisons between Naegling/Chango/Ukon are all significantly off. Since they all use different delays/STP in their sets we cannot assume they affect each build the same. I.E Retaliation most likely favors builds with higher STP than builds with higher MA.

So yeah... all DPS related calculations besides singe WS values are pretty far off on this thread. The good news is that Naegling/Chango/Ukon all have faster cycle times/ higher DPS than were originally calculated.


For me, just average segments yields. DPS/Frequency/Total Damage are all pretty bad metrics for sheol C. there really isn't a great one to determine the best weapon.

retaliation wouldn't be hard to calculate tp gain from it if there was more information on the rate based on delays

agreed, just need a way to figure out what the delays for various mobs are going to be, then figure out what mobs we are likely to fight in sheol c. then figure out if we are only going to have 1 mob fighting at a time or not. Also, things like addle/slow/para. (addle increasing casting time/decreasing melee time on the mob). But addle/slow/para are unlikely to be an issue on segs unless you are using Ukon. Ukko's will slow the mob.

most mobs have a delay of 240. multiple mobs you'd just multiply. none of the other stuff you mentioned should matter in sheol unless you seriously paralyze and slow every mob.

So there's not really an agreed-upon metric except overall results for the group? Okay, thanks.

Granted, even with ukkos it usually won't be an issue.

that is how you math out how much tpgain/white damage you have against x number of enemies. Not predicting how often you will be fighting multiple enemies in sheol C. Which probably isn't a giant factor, but it is still a factor.


Edit, looking through retaliation stuff, do we still not have a reliable proc rate based on delay? bg wiki says 20-50% which is wrong. I thought saevel or somebody had a better testing for it.

Double edit. Im not really sure we even have reliable retaliation proc rates. So, we need monster delay AND retaliation rates.

can you clarify what you mean? because "how often" you fight multiple mobs doesn't matter, it's the same variable between all three weapons people are talking about.

True, you are right on that.

I worked with flippant and his parser, sword and board I had a rate of 70%+ and with just GAXE was around 20-30%. It's really sensitive to delay and I'm not sure the JP are direct addition to the rate.

Interesting note, Retaliation is processed as a "Spikes" effect similar to blaze spikes. Load the parser, find an apex mob, engage and just let it swing at you while voking to keep hate should give decent data.

https://github.com/flippant/parse

Yeah, I thought I remembered you doing something with that. Nice work, but i think we need more testing with delay to be able to be confident on retaliation procs for spreadsheet DPS.

So to get retaliation figured out we need more testing on proc rate and more info on mob delay. Other than that we are golden lol.

Im gonna do apex leeches and mandies tonight and compare the data. kinda exciting lol

Thanks for you link Saevel

Is there a kill tracker or parser that tallies who finishes a mob?

It would be interesting to compare kill count along with dps/seg numbers

That would just tell you who is better at positioning themselves/targeting mobs

Pretty sure Scoreboard does that already.

Actually, i don't think it does.

Kparser would be a lot more helpful with this information.

As someone who's only geared WAR recently, is there actually a consensus in the fencer vs. dual-wielding with a TP bonus axe debate for savage blade (farming segments in sheol C)?
I'm considering making the axe, but that's a lot of trials that I'd rather not do if fencer is just straight up better.

Fencer and /DRG, hands down.

Made all the above, the TP Bonus beat out the SB /DRG War's pretty handedly. It's about who can reach 1K and kill the monster first, forcing the rest to have to re-target since auto-target is terrible. Funny enough R15 Chango was still blowing everything up, but I think that has to do with the 30 Store TP advantage it gets.

Wont 2 hander's Beat Savage blade eventually with mastery points in 2 patches or something coz of the skill gain?

Wont 2 hander's Beat Savage blade eventually with mastery points in 2 patches or something coz of the skill gain?

Wont 2 hander's Beat Savage blade eventually with mastery points in 2 patches or something coz of the skill gain?

Wont 2 hander's Beat Savage blade eventually with mastery points in 2 patches or something coz of the skill gain?

Wont 2 hander's Beat Savage blade eventually with mastery points in 2 patches or something coz of the skill gain?