What's Good About FFXI.

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What's good about FFXI.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-11-27 21:31:39
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Ragnarok.Jessikah said: »
Granted, some people are using this thread as means to just bash the crap out of XIV. Regardless, that's where Draylo's comment weighs in. I'm sure most of us have tried XIV at this point. A lot of us are here specifically because we prefer XI. If anyone comes in with anti-XI comments, it's a fair assumption that it will be met in kind...

Done Ever Quest, Earth and Beyond, FFXI, WoW, DDO, FFXIV and a few others that I didn't stick around with. Currently it's mostly DDO and XI with the occasional vacation into XIV for a different feel. Every game has a different flavor and style that caters to a different crowd. To really get where this is coming from we need to understand Bartels Taxonomy.

Part 1
Bartle's Taxonomy
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Part 2
Balancing MMO's with the Taxonomy in mind
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No reasonable discussion of "me say game X good" or "me say game Y bad" can happen without those two videos being understood due to folks emotions causing them to talk around each other.
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 Ragnarok.Ghishlain
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By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2021-11-27 22:00:08
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Draylo said: »
Yeah yet if that was the case they should have created every game to be like candy crush, fortnite and LoL. Yet they didn't and they see artistic value in different styles of games or remastering older projects. They don't have to necessarily create or support only the games that are going to make them money and they've shown multiple times that it isn't their sole objective given how many remasters of games they've done that have generally mediocre sales.

Also keep in mind your precious XIV is almost 12 years old, its no youngling. They are actively gouging one of their previous most profitable MMO and doing so in favor of supporting XIV. I can't count how many ads and money that has been thrown at that game, it would be a surprise if it didn't do well given how much they've invested. If only they invested 1% of that back into XI.

If I were to take a guess, remastering a 2D RPG and implementing previously scrapped content isn't that large of an endeavor.

But given how expensive FFXI as a game is, re-mastering the entire game is no small journey and will definitely take time and money to do. Who knows, maybe they are doing that for the 20th anniversary surprise that is to come. Only S-E would know.

I do find it funny that S-E is testing the idea of a MOBA-style game with First Soldier - I anticipate that to be a pretty hard flop but I will admit I have no interest in trying it myself.

And yeah, XIV is a 12 year old game technically, but given the massive graphical and engine overhaul it received, it would be better to view XIV at the time 2.0 was released which is August 2013, making it closer to a 8 year old game. Still old and it's definitely showing it's age, I won't doubt that. Things like the glamour system is terrible and the netcode leaves a lot to desire. Also need more storage too and the housing in the game is atrocious. The game is certainly not without faults so it's certainly not "my precious" FFXIV, so please drop the condensation and putting words in my mouth. I enjoy the game like I enjoy XI.

Ragnarok.Jessikah said: »
Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »
I also personally attribute XIV 1.0's failure to the fact that S-E tried to push XI 2.0 in the form of XIV 1.0 and it failed miserably. After playing XIV 1.0 myself, I basically said "why the heck do I want to play something that tries to be like FFXI when I can just play FFXI?" and then promptly moved back to XI and continued to play XI instead. I think at that point, S-E recognized they couldn't really have two similar versions of a MMO and be successful as they would just be gouging their own game for player - so they shifted to a game play style that was more appealing to the current market and now we have XIV as we currently do
I've heard this before. XIV 1.0 didn't fail because it tried to be XI-2, XIV 1.0 failed because it was a hot pile of steaming garbage. It had no idea what made a good game good. In fact, I kept notes from just my few hours playing it extremely early on.

To summarize my initial notes:
The UI was awful (it was hard to read and didn't update in real-time). There was no central marketplace (Auction House). There existed no way at all to look for a party. Outdoor zones had nothing to do, and like 1 monster per square mile (I wrote down "PC's literally camp everyday monsters like they were NMs"). Soloing was anywhere between 2x to 5x faster than partying because of the experience systems in place. Archers couldn't reload in the middle of combat, and running out of ammo guaranteed death. The game was broken - I had glitches listed as unable to attack or put your weapon away, you wouldn't revive if you chose to return to your home point while KOed. The chat log was static. Character creation was even more limited than XI. Camera was poorly designed. Players were penalized for playing over time by gradually lowering earned experience points to as low as 0, only gradually returning to normal while logged-out.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I know people who say that XIV sucked because it had TP, and because XI has TP as a resource, that must mean that it sucks as well. No. XIV just didn't know how to do TP. It included TP as an execution requirement in addition to having GCDs, which was a really, really stupid way to do it. But because the game got better as a result of removing TP, a lot of people think XI is just "behind the times" or some crap. It's really annoying.

Yeah, in general, it's safe to say XIV 1.0 was just a terrible mess at too many things. For me, another issue was also the computer power needed to play it. My rig wasn't that great at the time so it was a chunky mess to play, which also sapped the enjoyment. Combine that with all the bugs and glitches you listed and it was just a downright mess.

While I didn't play any 1.0, I have spoken with players who played till the end of the 1.X saga. A lot of these players do agree that FFXIV 1.X did start to make it's stride in the latter half, implementing a ton of QoLs and adjustments that made the game significantly more enjoyable and actually felt like it was worth playing. I guess that was until someone decided to hit the Bahamut Nuke button and give us what 2.0 is today.
 Asura.Aeonova
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By Asura.Aeonova 2021-11-27 22:11:19
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Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »
it's safe to say XIV 1.0 was just a terrible mess

At least everyone can come together on some things.

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 Ragnarok.Jessikah
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By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2021-11-27 22:14:00
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Done Ever Quest, Earth and Beyond, FFXI, WoW, DDO, FFXIV and a few others that I didn't stick around with. Currently it's mostly DDO and XI with the occasional vacation into XIV for a different feel. Every game has a different flavor and style that caters to a different crowd. To really get where this is coming from we need to understand Bartels Taxonomy.
That was an interesting watch. I've always liked Extra Credits, I don't know why I don't watch more of their stuff.

From watching that, I think internally I can *** myself as an Explorer/Socializer. I couldn't care less about achievements or "winning" against others. FFXI allows me to express all of that by being very PvE focused and allowing for a fairly stable player-centric economy.

But I definitely just like to muck about with the world, and I've always loved helping new players when I can.
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-11-27 22:25:33
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Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »
While I didn't play any 1.0, I have spoken with players who played till the end of the 1.X saga. A lot of these players do agree that FFXIV 1.X did start to make it's stride in the latter half, implementing a ton of QoLs and adjustments that made the game significantly more enjoyable and actually felt like it was worth playing. I guess that was until someone decided to hit the Bahamut Nuke button and give us what 2.0 is today.

Was one of the folks from XI who got to do the beta stuff and most of those aforementioned bugs were identified during that time. Lots (not all) were fixed when 1.0 was officially opened. 1.0 failed hard due to mechanical issues Tanaka had implemented that culminated in the game not actually wanting players to play it. That was communicated during beta feedback but got soundly ignored by the big guy, so even when they fixed the bugs and had some QoL updates, the core issues remained until SE brass decided to scrap it, send Tanaka to manage a broom closet, and rebuild the game.

See SE has takes huge issue with any of the numbered "Final Fantasy" games being perceived as a "failure". So when FFXIV 1.0 tanked and had so much negative press, they removed the guy responsible (Tanaka), moved the guy doing Dragon Quest (Yoshida) and had him take charge of not having a main series game be a failure. This also involved having Matsui, who was temporarily running FFXI while Tanaka was screwing up FFXIV, redo the combat system for FFXIV. Matsui later got promoted to be the producer of FFXI and the guy running the combat team for FFXIV.

Yeah imagine that, the current XI producer is also the person doing all those cool fights that folks love in FFXIV. All the folks attempting to hate on FFXIV's combat system are just spiting in their own eyes.
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By Draylo 2021-11-27 22:32:26
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Or simply they don't like the battle system and in their opinion its garbage, imagine that someone having a different opinion.
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By llAKs0nll 2021-11-27 22:40:02
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Asura.Aeonova said: »
Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »
it's safe to say XIV 1.0 was just a terrible mess

At least everyone can come together on some things.


Never tried 1.0 but it looks more like 11 which is want I wanted.

Honestly……..

I absolutely hate FFXIV cuz I know what killed off FFXI and when FFXI is done & over w/ and only FFXIV remains.

Was it seriously worth it cloning WoW?
Not IMO it wasn’t. If I wanted to play WoW that badly I wouldn’t had started playing 11 to begin w/
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-11-27 23:39:41
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I think we found who made the socks.
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By Draylo 2021-11-27 23:50:44
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lol it looks like mine but it isn't, I don't care enough to make socks
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By llAKs0nll 2021-11-28 02:32:17
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Asura.Saevel said: »
I think we found who made the socks.

When FFXIV was 1st announced we were told that FFXI and FFXIV would be inter connected. You could walk into your Mog in 11 and walk out into 14. That’s the whole reason why 14 has the same Characters such as Taru & Mithra in the game in the 1st place. Then after whatever occurred during 14 development SE obviously ended up canceling such ideas. Then not long after we were eventually told 11 would no longer receive any major Updates only small Patches. So I mean yeah.

Remake FFXI correctly next time. Just cuz whatever they had going so far wasn’t up to par. That doesn’t mean they should had converted 14 into WoW w/ FFXI characters.
 
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By llAKs0nll 2021-11-28 02:42:37
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Freehugs said: »
llAKs0nll said: »
When FFXIV was 1st announced we were told that FFXI and FFXIV would be inter connected. You could walk into your Mog in 11 and walk out into 14.
You got a source for this? there is no way in hell this was ever planned.

XIV didn't kill XI. People got tired of playing it and moved on. Shocker, I know. But if it makes you feel better then keep blaming Yoshida and the XIV boogeyman.

It was definitely during Dev discussions. SE never used Taru & Mithras until FFXI. No other FF game had such Races. There is no reason for them to exist in FFXIV other than via Dev Discussions claiming 11 connecting to 14.

You’re talking Dev discussions from 10+ years ago now?
No, I don’t have links. I tried searching but cannot find what I know I was discussing amongst LS atm way back then.

It’s not a coincidence that Taru & Mithras exist in 14. I know why they do.
 
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By llAKs0nll 2021-11-28 02:58:43
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Freehugs said: »
Cuz yeah, Square Enix never reuses assets ever.

The only Characters they reuse repeated nonstop are Brigs, Wedge and Cid whom are in almost all games just like Chocobo and Moogles are but certainly not Tarutaru nor Mithras.

You will not find FFXII animal Characters in any other Game. You will not find Vivi from FFIX in any other game neither.

That’s not how SE makes NEW Final Fantasy games.
They literally NEVER use the same Race of Characters other than basic generic Humans. Possibly FF Tactics linked w/ FFXII though iirc far as Races & Planet go but other than that nothing else.

I promise you that is indeed the reason behind such.
 
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By llAKs0nll 2021-11-28 03:31:37
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Freehugs said: »
llAKs0nll said: »
You will not FFXII animal Characters in any other Game. You will not find Vivi from FFIX in any other game neither.
Vivi was in Kingdom Hearts II, a summon in FF Dimensions II and a racer in Chocobo GP. Viera are a playable race in XIV (Males being added in the upcoming expansion) and FF Tactics Advance and A2

Cross Games. Not in FF1 + also in FF3. I mentioned such w/ FF Tactics and FFXII doing such but never from one FF game to the next FF game.

Regardless I been searching as much as possible to find reference to my claims. I know myself & others were discussing such way back when but I can’t seem to find anything other than SE allowing FFXI players to port over FFXI character names to FFXIV but w/ last names being their Server name on FFXI.
 
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 Valefor.Furyspawn
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By Valefor.Furyspawn 2021-11-28 04:19:46
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Asura.Aeonova said: »

Skill chains and magic bursts as a specific subset of the mechanical complexity are one of the things I appreciate the most about XI, but it's really the overarching system that ties everything together, where the elements determine monster strengths/weaknesses, the affinity of abilities, traits, and base stats, the color of the moon during the week, the auto sorting order of spirits (elemental wheel) versus avatars (days of the week), and so much more.

Even if seemingly very few people can or do take advantage of it anymore, the game offers the opportunity for people to establish a synergy to complete content with style and grace in a way that is very fulfilling to me personally.
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By RadialArcana 2021-11-28 04:32:20
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I dunno whos sock llAKs0nll is but he did a good job of riling you guys up, which was obv the intention he registered for.
 
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By Draylo 2021-11-28 05:32:06
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Except XIV thumpers have been hating on and bashing XI since 1.0... I have been around the forums a long time and have seen that over and over lol. I rarely, if ever, see someone pro XI go to an XIV forum and bash their game, but it happens constantly here and this was suppose to be a positive thread for XI. The problem is, both really cant exist in a healthy state thanks to SE.

We already have seen them take funds from this game to pour into 14 when it first failed. Now we see the people running to be apart of the cool club in a "modern" and popular game. The company themselves have poured endless money into advertising it and they barely throw this game a bone. I dont care its old, WoW is ancient too and so are many other MMO that still get full support.

I think its pretty easy to see why people are jaded towards XIV. Not to mention the discussion just now was based on its battle system which not everyone is going to like. People bashed WoW heavily on these forums for similar and now they are all pro XIV? Doesnt make sense but here we are. We pay a full sub fee just like them and get only a fraction of the companies time and energy. Then like many others have already said, they are two completely different games in gameplay, so they dont want to play it but are being forced as its the only other FF MMO.

All I said was, dont be surprised people are hating on it here. I am sure if someone pro XI went to XIV forums and said negative things about that game, it would have its defenders too. Altho I imagine they bash WoW over there more than anything.
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By RadialArcana 2021-11-28 06:05:23
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Freehugs said: »
I guess this is all I will say: I don't understand the intense hate for XIV.

My personal dislike for XIV (and I think many people are like this) is actually to do with a minority from the XIV community that go around attacking other mmorpgs, however these days that isn't happening here. XIV players don't really attack or care about XI much anymore, these days it's mainly about attacking WOW, NW or anything new since they see those as direct competition. To be perfectly frank, most XI players don't care about XIV at all either. They are just sick and tired of hearing about a game they have no interest in. If people kept bringing up wow here or ingame, they would get a far more aggressive reaction no doubt because it comes across as shilling.

Ultimately though, why does it matter. Nothing anyone says is hurting it, so it's just because it upsets you to hear bad things about it from anyone. If that is the case you're going to be trolled forever, since it's easy pickings for someone with a new troll account they registered a week ago.

One of the biggest problems with XIV is the players REALLY don't like anyone to say anything bad about it and get hyper defensive. Honestly, there is far more negativity posted here about XI from people playing it than towards XIV from people who don't.
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By Afania 2021-11-28 06:51:03
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Draylo said: »
Except XIV thumpers have been hating on and bashing XI since 1.0...

Freehugs said: »
I guess this is all I will say: I don't understand the intense hate for XIV.


RadialArcana said: »
these days it's mainly about attacking WOW, NW or anything new since they see those as direct competition.


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By Seun 2021-11-28 09:12:23
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 Ragnarok.Ghishlain
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By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2021-11-28 09:15:19
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llAKs0nll said: »
Freehugs said: »
llAKs0nll said: »
When FFXIV was 1st announced we were told that FFXI and FFXIV would be inter connected. You could walk into your Mog in 11 and walk out into 14.
You got a source for this? there is no way in hell this was ever planned.

XIV didn't kill XI. People got tired of playing it and moved on. Shocker, I know. But if it makes you feel better then keep blaming Yoshida and the XIV boogeyman.

It was definitely during Dev discussions. SE never used Taru & Mithras until FFXI. No other FF game had such Races. There is no reason for them to exist in FFXIV other than via Dev Discussions claiming 11 connecting to 14.

You’re talking Dev discussions from 10+ years ago now?
No, I don’t have links. I tried searching but cannot find what I know I was discussing amongst LS atm way back then.

It’s not a coincidence that Taru & Mithras exist in 14. I know why they do.

A quick google netted the following results:

Here's a little bit about the perks of subscribing to both games on the Playonline.. archive let's say? I imagine this page isn't accessible. Notably something specific about names:



And here's an article about a translation of what Hiromichi Tanaka and Nobuaki Kumoto said when they spoke to several publishing sites. Notable clip below regarding characters transferring between XI and XIV:



So, it seems like they were toying with the idea of having characters being able to travel to either game but could not implement it due to technical limitations. Based on what's written in the article, this is probably what you are remembering given it's a 12 year old article at this point. They also talk about the similarities in races to provide familiarity to XI players in there.

===========================================================

Draylo said: »
I rarely, if ever, see someone pro XI go to an XIV forum and bash their game, but it happens constantly here and this was suppose to be a positive thread for XI.

I don't see posters bashing XI here. I see more posters bashing XIV then poster bashing XI. The most that has happened are a few players who have played / are playing both XI and XIV trying to correct a misinformed view on the fight design of XIV but not have explicitly said "FFXI is garbage". In contrast, there have been posts like:

Draylo said: »
XIV is garbage.

llAKs0nll said: »
FFXIV is literally terrible compared to FFXI is the Problem.

Where as the few people who have defended XIV have also added a disclaimer to their post with "Different strokes for different folks" because these posters also recognize they are de-railing the overall topic of the thread too.

I personally like Skyekitty's analogy in this post about car vs motorcycles and find it apt to the overall dynamic between XI and XIV.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-28 09:19:36
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Draylo said: »
Except XIV thumpers have been hating on and bashing XI since 1.0... I have been around the forums a long time and have seen that over and over lol. I rarely, if ever, see someone pro XI go to an XIV forum and bash their game, but it happens constantly here and this was suppose to be a positive thread for XI. The problem is, both really cant exist in a healthy state thanks to SE.

I have played all 3 MMOs extensively. You are right, pro XI players never go on their forums and bash the game. Whether that's because the population of XIV players greatly outweighs the population of XI players or because we know we have nothing to prove to anyone.

Draylo said: »
All I said was, dont be surprised people are hating on it here. I am sure if someone pro XI went to XIV forums and said negative things about that game, it would have its defenders too. Altho I imagine they bash WoW over there more than anything.

From what I've seen, all someone pro XI has to do is say "I did not enjoy XIV" and they're branded a hater/troll, etc. It's like the concept of not liking that game is taboo or something. I see the exact same reactions on the WoW forums from them as well.

To be fair, WoW players in general have their own issues too. The amount of blind shilling from them is quite staggering. The amount of blind faith they put in random people on the internet is staggering as well.

Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »
Different strokes for different folks

If I had a nickel for each time someone said this to XIV players and got a response like "No, there is no "different strokes", it's the goat", I could buy you a OLED Switch.

I've been on forums for all the games so much, I could know most all the pros/cons to each type of poster from each game. All have their faults.
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By llAKs0nll 2021-11-28 09:53:23
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Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »
llAKs0nll said: »
Freehugs said: »
llAKs0nll said: »
When FFXIV was 1st announced we were told that FFXI and FFXIV would be inter connected. You could walk into your Mog in 11 and walk out into 14.
You got a source for this? there is no way in hell this was ever planned.

XIV didn't kill XI. People got tired of playing it and moved on. Shocker, I know. But if it makes you feel better then keep blaming Yoshida and the XIV boogeyman.

It was definitely during Dev discussions. SE never used Taru & Mithras until FFXI. No other FF game had such Races. There is no reason for them to exist in FFXIV other than via Dev Discussions claiming 11 connecting to 14.

You’re talking Dev discussions from 10+ years ago now?
No, I don’t have links. I tried searching but cannot find what I know I was discussing amongst LS atm way back then.

It’s not a coincidence that Taru & Mithras exist in 14. I know why they do.




So, it seems like they were toying with the idea of having characters being able to travel to either game but could not implement it due to technical limitations. Based on what's written in the article, this is probably what you are remembering given it's a 12 year old article at this point. They also talk about the similarities in races to provide familiarity to XI players in there.

===========================================================

Thank you for finding such. I searched the Internet nonstop but could not find any trace to such info. Much appreciated.

Anyways I don’t have anything against FFXIV players enjoying FFXIV. I gave 14 ARR a shot myself but I much preferred 11. I don’t hate on anyone for playing that game nor do I wish for its demise. I only bash 14 cuz I played it to a point where it’s easy to compare 11 to 14.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-28 09:59:31
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llAKs0nll said: »
Anyways I don’t have anything against FFXIV players enjoying FFXIV

Nobody should. It just seems there are people out there who are "offended" by what others enjoy. Joe Blow may be a very lazy gamer, so he enjoys one over the other. That's his business.
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By Odin.Creaucent 2021-11-28 10:04:35
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Freehugs said: »
I guess this is all I will say: I don't understand the intense hate for XIV. or the shitting all over someone else who enjoys it. I have played XIV for maybe 3 years, I'm not a vet or anything but in all my time spent playing I have never run into anyone ***talking XI. Its always positive things and good memories.
I never try to claim XIV is better than XI, or actively try to tear someone down for enjoying XI still but it seems like that's how most XI players act when it comes to players of XIV.
I love XI, I love the memories I gained from it but its not a game that I want to play anymore. I'm glad people are still playing and enjoying it. I want it to last as long as it can. I would love to see it get an influx of new players and new content to do. There is room for 2 FF mmos, they don't have to be the same game.
Idk, I ramble.. We all need less hate and more hugs.

I like both games I just stick up for a game I like when people who obviously haven't got very far try to bash it. I've played WoW and while yes both games have GCD systems they don't feel anything alike.
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By Mattelot 2021-11-28 10:08:52
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Odin.Creaucent said: »
people who obviously haven't got very far try to bash it

I defended XIV on the WoW forums not long ago when some guy gave his "review" of the game, talking about how "terrible" it was after he played it for a whole 2 whopping days. Never even unlocked his first job stone or did anything relevant.
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