State Of Redemption In Current Ffxi

Is Redemption worth making as a first drk REMA? Currently working towards Caladbolg, but after messing around with scythe a bit I find the the utility, playstyle and ws animations of Scythe are a lot more appealing than Torcleaver spam.
I don't really hear much about redemption these days(Probably because of Chloris...), but how is Redemption vs Caladbolg? Vs Anguta?

(usual Cele wall of text incoming)

Opinions will be varied, and I'm sure at some point spreadsheet/simulation numbers will get dropped in. I'll let those better versed in that handle the nuts and bolts. I just want to pass on my experiences with the weapon versus other options and the scenarios I've been able to try them out.

I have the following RMEA options: R8 Apocalypse, R3 Anguta, R10 Caladbolg, R12 Redemption, R15 Liberator. Also utility options unrelated to this discussion (Loxotic Mace+1, Montante+1, Lycurgos primarily in that department). RP levels have not been a huge priority for me on DRK, but I did want to have at least a couple option above R10 and then slowly creep them to R15 one at a time (which is why the Liberator is R15).

I use DRK in ally sized content usually, because for smaller stuff I'm typically on a different job, but do get to use it in Odyssey now and then. In those situations I can always count on 4 songs, at least +7 rolls, and bubbles.

1. Greatsword in general is "easier" to build sets for both TPing and its WSs. Resolution and Torcleaver both are very straightforward. Rarely will you be part of long chains using GSWD- often it will be situations of just spamming WSs or maybe a 2-stepper. I joke that greatsword for a DRK is a sledgehammer.

2. Scythe is a much more satisfying weapon to use in general if you enjoy complexity. Set builds for WSs are more nuanced as Scythe WSs often have "split" modifiers (situations where 2 stats affect damage vs say Torcleaver which is all VIT based). 3-5 step chains are where Scythe shines and can use these mechanics to produce comparable overall damage numbers.

But--even as someone who greatly prefers scythe, it takes a LOT to make it competitive with average greatsword build, as well as some things that will be outside your control. If a scythe can't chain and get that "free" damage, matching damage becomes an uphill battle from the start. So many will seek what makes certain RMEA scythes special in hopes of abusing that aspect.

Liberator: Mythic AM3 of "occasionally attacks twice or thrice" is insanely powerful for 2 handed weapons due to the speed of TP gain. It does require gearing differently during TP phase, but with the extra damage gained by RP'ing along with the boost to Insurgency, this weapon gained a lot of steam in the past 2 years. A big bonus for its "enhances absorb spells", as the extra amounts absorbed can transfer very directly to bigger WS numbers.

Apocalypse: Its power comes from its unique survival tools, and abusing a WS that does not scale with TP means more WSs vs saving TP from an extra attack round for every WS.

Redemption: Like Caladbolg, its uniqueness is from the Empyrean aftermath, greatly increasing the "white damage"- damage from regular attack swings vs WSs. Unlike Caladbolg, you retain the complexity and utility of scythe. But with a larger base delay, its not so easily used in a "spam style" like one uses Caladbolg.

So why is it getting more talk lately? There are subtle formula differences for damage between scythe and greatsword attack rounds (and there are many more qualified to break those down than me) which means the potential damage is higher per swing with scythe. And some recent gear additions are making those differences more abusable, in particular more +PDL gear options. But how to really see it in action? I find I need these things in place for Redemption to be my weapon of choice:

-very high end attack buffs. At least 2 of the following sources of Minuets, Chaos Roll, Fury.
-good defense-down debuffs. Frailty, Dia3(with light shot), steps, the like.
-stable hate NOT on me and nonlethal AoEs.
-limited number of DDs. If 5 people are all on the same mob, there's just too much going on to use long chain mechanics.

If any of those things are not in my favor, my weapon choice changes. Not enough attack stuff? Liberator so I can use WSs on average at higher TP values for more scaling on things like Cross Reaper and Insurgency. Dangerous AoEs or hate resets? Apocalypse so I'm safer but still capable of aggressive playstyle. Good buffs but lots of DDs, or mobs die fast (like in dyna-D waves or Odyssey segment farming)? Caladbolg competes better without needing to chain.

Redemption for me is Goldilocks. More often than not she's gonna *** about something being wrong, but in those moments when everything is "just right", she's quite a happy girl.

Redemption requires a lot more gear to be good honestly. You need to max out 3 sets for it to be better than Caladbolg;

AM3 TP, Cross Reaper, Quietus, and Entropy(for enmity) sets really make the weapon get to that par of Caladbolg’s simplicity and beginner-friendliness.

I personally made Redemption a little less than a year ago and I can tell you it’s extremely fun, different and varied from Torcleaver spam. Sometimes it may not be the best for raw dps, but you do get to see those little moments where Quietus does feel nice to spam on more defensive monsters like Paladins in Dynamis, considering you’re almost always going at 3000 TP to maximize Redemption’s monstrous white hits.

Tldr;

If you want my honest opinion, Caladbolg is far too easy to get to NOT make. It’s the easiest Empyrean path by far, and it’s the best weapon ‘Overall’ for its simple maximization compared to a scythe. Scythes require a lot more work than Caladbolg does to make good. But Scythes in the end are way more fun.

I legit lol'd at this analogy. It's fairly accurate too. Redemption gets beat by every other weapon at DRKs disposal in most scenarios, but there is a few where it's an absolute monster. Antican ambuscade (or was it Velkk... I can't remember) where you couldn't WS over 25k or he'd go rage. Pop 300% Quietus in your PDT set to make sure you do much damage, then switch to a crit build and watch those 10-16k swings pile up.

I wouldn't make Redemption as my first weapon, but I did make one and I don't regret it for a moment.

This is for sure not true.

I have completely different opinion than most people here.

First of all I dont understand the hype for Scythe self SC.
What are those good 3-5 step self skillchains that people keep talking about? All I can think of is mediocre at best (especially compered to self SC on jobs like MNK, WAR or SAM). EDIT: Anguta is maybe the only exception now with Sakpata. It's 3 step darkness is quite ok.

Now for raw dps without self SC, AM3 Redemption with Cross reaper is as strong if not stronger than AM3 Caladbolg and stronger than AM3 Liberator. The only problem with Redemption is that it losses substantial damage when you need to make 3000TP Quietus for AM3.

Self-chaining on DRK with scythe got a lot more valued with the introduction of Schere Earring. No job is nearly as capable of abusing that single piece of gear like DRK is with Entropy. And the beauty is that it doesn't lock you into needing to use it 100%- so you might as well gear your damage style to keep up numbers when you work one in vs just Cross Reaper Spam.

I've always appreciated the view of things from the spreadsheet angle, but real world results will always be the final verdict for me. And when I'm doing the same fight multiple times with the same people buffing me the same way, the only times I see matching parses between Caladbolg and Redemption is when I can close chains on scythe. If both weapons are just flat out spamming, say in a Warder of Courage type scenario, Caladbolg wins and does so simpler- and that situation also factors in starting the fight with 3k TP.

I'm with ya- I freaking love Redemption, and I see it has a higher ceiling than Caladbolg no doubt. I just wouldn't suggest it as a first option for a DRK as its not nearly as foolproof as greatsword.

I have no idea how it was before. Im talking about now with options like Sakpata. Also AM3 Redemption is marginally stronger than AM3 Caladbolg so in 1-2minute fight, even if you start with 3000TP, you might never recover from like 30-40k damage you lose with first WS (3000 Torc vs 3000 Quietus), so I can definitely see Calad winning, even when its dps during AM3 is marginally lower. Also they operate differently to achieve max dps. With Redemption you need to hold TP, while with Calad it doesnt matter much. So if you have someone spam Cross Reaper in a zerg, than it wasnt done right for max dps. EDIT2: Its 7%+ dps gain if you hold TP for Cross Reaper instead of spamming (at attack cap with strong white damage set).

Agree with all this- wanted to specify that when I used the term "spam" regarding Cross Reaper, its a term I use whenever multiple WSs are being used without chaining, and I typically aim for 1750+TP usage with this weapon/WS combo. If holding longer would result in better numbers, I'm all for a suggestion of how to best maximize the weapon.

I fail to see how AM3 Redemption is stronger than AM3 Caladbolg given how much Torcleaver is better than Cross Reaper (much better fTP, single hit so WSDMG benefits more and you can sacrifice more accuracy for offensive stats, better SC properties, and 10% boost from R15 all vs better mods {but Torc scales better with NVDS Absorb}), since the scythe PDIF bonus is only 6% higher on scythe that greatsword even when capped.

All of my tests and sims have put Caladbolg solidly in the lead even at attack cap.

To the OP, Anguta feels like an AH scythe in my hands, gains tp fast. decent scythe. Caladbolg is fun, always high ws number but whiffs a lot. Always at the worst possible time too. Redemption is really fun to me. I love seeing 12-15k crits. Quietus is a pretty sturdy ws that is overlooked a lot. MY Redemption hits 25-60k quietus. You could pit the 2 emp weapons up against each other and one night 1 will win the next the other. Personally I just r15'ed my liberator and it seems to crush em both imo. (as much as i want Redemption to win)

Completely agree from what I've seen. Cross Reaper tears it up just as much as Torc can. Multi-Stepping is really whatever, but super powerful when you have the option to. Multi stepping should never be the draw of a weapon due to the scarcity you'll be eligible to use it.

The added Benefit of Scythe many don't talk about in long fights is also never having to turn due to Schere Enmity loss.

Calad is the big boy burst and will always win in a short fight. I think Redemption is king in long fights easily.

I said Redemption is even or marginally ahead. I had it at 1% lead, but after your post I tried to optimize Torcleaver a little more and was able to squeeze out 1% more dps and I have them even now. I dont see how you can have Caladbolg solidly ahead tho, unless counting self SC with Torc. You need to hold tp to 2500 for Redemption to get optimal dps tho.

On my spreadsheet, without counting SCs, at ~3.3 pdif (Redemption a bit higher because of 7 skill difference and 30 STR) I've got AM3 Caladbolg about 5.3% ahead of AM3 Redemption, while at capped pdif it's about 6.5% ahead (despite what one may think, Redemption performs better relatively when uncapped because Ratri +1 is significantly better for Cross Reaper than anything GSD has for Torcleaver in the head/hands/feet slots when uncapped, barring unrealistic DM augments or R20 Nyame).

This is also assuming Ratri +1 is used in uncapped set (when applicable), which is a safety sacrifice; if you use safer pieces, it'll fall further behind in the uncapped sitation. Caladbolg also loses less by sometimes having AM1 or AM2 up (which does happen often) since it has a lower Melee:WS ratio.

I would make it, but god I hate Chloris.

Im not opposed to it:
-More accuracy,
-Cross Reaper in theory should miss less on the first hit since it's multi hit. VS Torcleaver plain whiffing. (Please correct me on this if this speculation is wrong)
-Higher TP gain per hit. Makes putting up AM3 not seem like an eternity. (I really hate Calad's Delay)
-Works with that Enmity Earring due to entropy.
-Quietus isn't as bad as everyone says it is. It will be close to R15 Catastrophe. It isn't half bad at 1000TP.
-Better WS options for MBing Drain 3. Great sword cannot do this with weapon bash. It involves swapping weapons. You lose AM3 (I mean this happens either way if you macro in a weapon for D3, but you have the option to lock your weapon to disable this).

For all the effort/prep/materials though I do think Liberator is the way to go. If you "Gotta Catch'em All" it certainly is a respectable weapon.

Im honestly bored with my R15 Calad and dont use it as much as I thought I would.

Once again have you set sheet to hold tp to 2500 for Redemption? Because without that I also have caladbolg ahead by around that much as you.

My mains got Calad/Apoc and my mule has liberator.

I find that I feel more “badass” using Calad. Feel/know I’m the strongest using it.

Liberator is more fast-paced and fun when you’re drunk or just smoked a fat bowl).

Apoc will always have a special place in my heart and if you can find something challenging you wanna solo feels super rewarding and is extremely fun in the process. Or if your party’s dying, especially with Sakpata’s, you can pretty much equip your Apoc and with the right buffs you’re pretty indestructible.

I’ve had it where I compare both the Calad DRK and Lib DRK in the same party with the same buffs. The Calad DRK pulls out about 4-5% higher, but the Lib DRK is brand new and missing a few key pieces (regal ring and AF3+3 body) so she may even pull ahead when fully geared.

Using Apoc/Lib/Calad, I can’t imagine ever finding a situation for Redemption. I’d never want to hold TP to 2500 every single time. I’d also like to leave Chloris the hell alone. I could only see myself doing it for completion sake.

I might make Redemption for single pleasure of watching those beefy white damage numbers. But Ukonvasara is better for that, outside of maybe some maxed out Scarlet Delirium.

Yes, I have. I played with all the sets and decisions to maximize DPS in both situations.

Is there a widely accepted DRK spreadsheet out there? I don't see one on the currently maintained sheets. Are you two using the same spreadsheet?

I will say I've used all DRK weapons except Redemption. Calad has it's place and so does Liberator. I use Calad when I either need a safer alternative, or attack isn't high enough to benefit from the extra PDL on scythe. Now, given sakpata, this changes a bit. If you can get AM3 up on Liberator, and the mob has enough hp for you to actually get a few weaponskills off; it will pull ahead quite rapidly due to monstrous TP speed and overflow leading to higher Insurgency numbers. I personally Insurgency at 1750 tp or higher as the FTP rises incredibly steep.

I'm interested in making a Redemption at some point and I can definitely see where it could pull ahead due to the Odyssey gear.

Redemption shines more on niche battles where your weapon skilling is restricted (gimmicks/amnesia etc), so white damage becomes all the more important. Aside from that, you will struggle to find it better than Liberator or Anguta.

AM3 Redemption is miles ahead of Anguta (like 19% ahead). It beats it significantly even with AM1. AM3 Redemption also beats AM3 Liberator, but loses a lot of DPS to activate AM3. Redemption also needs to be used in specific way. You need to hold tp to 2500 (saving to that TP adds 10%dps compered to WSing at 1000TP). Also Im talking about 5/5 Sakpata Redemption at attack cap vs Liberator and Anguta with Flamma feet/head and Odyssean legs for Liberator and Ignominy legs for Anguta. Only AM3 Caladbolg can rival with AM3 Redemption and generally win, because putting up AM3 cost Caladbolg almost no DPS loss and Torcleaver can self SC.

Redemption is an odd beast.
It can be the best weapon in certain niche circumstances, but getting the most out of it can be an awkward proposition.
It got a big buff in the form of Sakpata gear for TP set earlier, in the same way that Caladbolg did, but unlike Caladbolg it is a weapon that relies on 2500-3000 TP weapon skills to function optimally in a high buff situation. This can make it appear great on a spreadsheet and then get really uncomfortable to actually use in practice, depending on what content you are using it for.
In an event like wave1 Dyna for instance, where you are engaging lots of enemies quickly, cycle time is king and Liberator will absolutely murder Redemption. When fights get longer on a per-target basis Redemption feels much better to use and starts to perform like a spreadsheet says it should.

Interestingly, Redemption is also a great weapon for certain attack uncapped situations, though it has strong competition from Lycurgos. My Odyssey static has been doing V15 Dealan-dhe (Twitherym NM) in our moogle amplifier rotation, and that is the perfect target for Quietus spam under Redemption. Since we are blowing all our Brd / Cor / Geo slots on V15 Bumba we are significantly underbuffed for the twitherym, which makes it one of the rare places in the game where Quietus spam is a winning proposition. That NM's high wind resistance keeps Armor Break from landing, and then AM3 plus darkness SC spam pushes Redemption way ahead of any other option, the predominant competition being Lycurgos Steel Cyclone. And there is amnesia too, so that you can end up at 3k TP and do a cross reaper only a little bigger than the Quietus' you have been spamming at 1k.

I like mine and I get a fair amount of use out of it, but I would not consider Redemption high on the priority list of REMA to go after.

Yeah I wouldnt consider it as priority too. Also while saving tP significantly push it ahead, with AM3 and doing WSs at 1000-1500 TP it still marginally better than Liberator. At least at attack cap. Still would probably lose with Liberator, because of DPS loss to activate AM3. Not sure about uncapped attack situation. On one hand with lower attack, Quietus getting more competitive, but on the other hand white DPS suffers a lot since PDL doesnt work.

The real answer is that if you wanna use a certain weapon, you should be building around that weapon to make it shine.

If your only objective is to chase after the absolute maximum DPS possible, have fun in spreadsheet land and trying to make in-game scenarios match whatever the Excel/Google sheet tells you.

I'd totally build a Redemption but have 0 interest in the never-ending REMA building process anymore.

People seems to mistake DPS in sheets a lot. Its not there to tell you exactly what you can expect. Its there exactly to show you under what condition DPS is the best. Then you need to take that knowledge and ask yourself if you can mirror that scenario in game or how to change your gameplay/gear to get close to mimic the best dps scenario. Also sheet is not only to check best dps with glass cannon build. You can make observation for hybrid sets or low buff scenario too. Its not only to check highest dps possible in perfect scenario.

Really liking the discussion on Redemption. What I have not seen though, updates to gear sets. What are folks using? Feel free to add spreadsheet data vs real world feel as it seems we have both POVs here - which is cool with me.

1. TP (This is to achieve 3k tp AM)
2. AM Set
3. WS Sets (Quietus, Cross Reaper and Entropy)

I ask because 1., the "high end DRK" page doesnt have standard tp regarding a 3/4/5 hit build, or AM sets for Redemption. 2., updates with Sakpata obviously were not updated on that page.

Really appreciate the info as im sure others are curious what DRKs with Redemption have been using.

Cant add everything now, because Im going out with kid.

AM3 set
ItemSet 377698

For uncapped attack Flamma feet +2 and Ignominy legs +3 are 1.2% ahead, but honestly imo 1.2% is not worth MEVA loss. One sleep/stun or even bind/paralyze in wrong moment even for 2 sec and you are far more than 1.2% behind.

I will add WS sets later.

ItemSet 380189
Problem of this set is accuracy. I suggest accuracy food.

ItemSet 380190

Acc Swaps:
Kentarch R15
Seething R15
Regal+IgnominyBody+3
Beithir Ring R20

Thanks for the AM3/CR sets, appreciate it. Surprised, why doesnt Hetairoi win over Petrov?

What about your standard tp build set, prior to AM3?
Any changes to Entropy or Quietus builds with the Sakpata gear?

I cant say for sure, because I dont have TA damage functionality in my sheet, but since this set with Hetairoi would have 4% TA rate total, I would say that Hetairoi would be same or less raw damage (since without 5% TA damage in my sheet Heitaroi is 0.5% dps loss and +5% damage of 4% swings definitely wouldn't make up for it)