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Game Design Exercise: Rework Nin
By Bahadir 2021-02-28 10:16:22
Disclaimer: Long post! If you don't love Nin: There is nothing to see here! Keep moving...
This is not targeted at anything really (certainly not SE) but rather a game design exercise for myself where I spell out some ideas I had for Nin as a job. I am curious to hear what you guys think, how and if that would fit into the game and/or make the job more attractive in current end game content.
Nin, being one of my all time favorite jobs (love the concept and lore behind it), still sort of lacks a clear vision from SE. So I was searching for something that makes it worth using but balanced and not OP in every situation. Something that is fun to play and captures the lore of a Nin, fits into the current game as well as keeps alive what players currently like about Nin.
So for this I came up with something that Nin partly already is but would like to max out the potential here.
Hybrid (= phys/magic) debuff DD
i.e. focus on the hybrid weapon skills that Nin already has (Chi/To/Teki/Kagero/Jinpu/Goten) as a way to enhance its debuffs to a usable level.
Reasoning: Debuffing used to be an important part of the job but the potency has not at all kept up with the pace of the rest of the game. I am looking at you 3HP/tick poison from Dokumori: Ichi ... Also, Nin is the only job that gets access to hybrid WSs for all (of the 6) elements if you include GKatana. I feel these have great potential but are under used by the current game design due to nature and amount of buffs they require.
As a quick summary: My ideas are to slightly buff hybrid WSs to make them less reliant on heavy buffs, increase Nins GKat capabilities to make Nin + GKat a valid option, significantly increase debuff potency, have hybrid WS of certain element increase debuff potency similar to Cor shots. Along with some over due fixes...
In detail:
WS
Leave phys WS dmg as they are
Slightly increase katana hybrid WS dmg by increasing the fTP for the phys part.
Make Blade: Ei a one phys hit hybrid similar to To/Teki
Drastically increase Yu poison. Make it start at about 500 per tic, possibility to be resisted for half dmg. Subsequent uses increase the damage for the overlapping timer to a max stack of 5. thats "only" 45k dmg over 270 sec per use at 3kTP so probably still barely usable but could be nice on enemies that force you to turn or hold TP for some reason or another.
para from Retsu and put it on To, add (weak) blind to Ei, change Acc- on Kamu to inhibit TP that stacks with Yurin, add (weak) poison to Teki, add (weak) slow to Chi
Give Nin access to Kasha and Shoha to acknowledge that Nins can wield (G)Katanas...
Here is the meat:
Using a hybrid WS of the corresponding element buffs a Ninjutsu debuff to a next tier, e.g. using Blade: Ei when Kurayami: Ni is in effect increases potency to the III level for the remainder of the debuff. This works on all Ninjutsu debuffs, including Yurin and Aisha. Only works once on the same debuff (similar to Cor shots).
Ninjutsu
Change elemental Ninjutsu effect to give SDT- similar to Rayke for 6 sec (before merits)). One tier down for Ni spells,
2 tiers down for San spells. Duration does not refresh/overwrite, the weak element will overwrite. Increase recast for San spells to 90sec. (even with max fast cast you cannot full time the SDT- effect like that with just one Nin)
Give Nin access to Jubaku Ni and Dokumori: Ni
Buff all debuff effects and make some of them scale with Ninjutsu skill (see hybrid WS for III/II effects):
- Kurayami III: scales with skill. Max about -120 Acc so a bit stronger than Blind II, does not stack with Blind
- Hojo III: about 35% so an alternative to Slow II
- Dokumori III: scales with skill. Up to about 750 per tick, does not stack with other poison effects. Duration 180 sec for a max of 45k dmg over 3min.
- Jubaku III scales with skill. comparable to Para II on max
- Yurin II: same as penance value of 25% fix
- Aisha II : ~ 30% Attack Down scale with skill,
Increase duration of self enhancing Ninjutsu by 50%
Increase self enhancing Ninjutsu potency:
- Kakka: scale with skill, up to STP+20. a) to make up for the DPS loss when being forced to cast it and b) since Nin will rely more on different WS now
- Myoshin: scale with skill up to +20, make it SB II. that way Myoshin and merits cap SB II (see Merit section)
Leave shadows as they are right now
Merits
A restructure here is long overdue. How the king of shadows, silent killer, the job with second highest native SB can have such a hard time capping SB II is beyond me. First things first: make SB merits SB II. Keep the effect at 1 per merit.
Next remove the element specific merits completely. Instead:
Increase ninjutsu resistance down effect duration by 2 seconds. (see Ninjutsu section)
Increase Issekigan effect: increase parrying rate by 2% per merit level, 1% on NMs (see Abilities)
Ninjutsu magic effect duration by 6sec per merit, one category for buffs and one for debuffs (does not include elemental resistance down)
Reduce Futae recast timer by 6 sec
Job points
Make the casting time category also affect recast.
Abilities
Issekigan: Enmity + while using Yonin but Enmity- when using Innin. Make parry a flat % similar to Battuta to a moderate 20% (30 with merits).
Innin/Yonin: Remove decay, remove position requirement.
Futae: Turn this into a better elemental seal for Ninjutsu only: very high MAcc bonus, keep the dmg bonus, make buffs aoe in party when used.
Mijin Gakure: Always give RR effect, laaaargly increase dmg, make dmg scale with Ninjutsu skill up to ~40k dmg. If only to see hordes of Nins blowing up again haha
Mikage: Such an awesome ability already. Really underrated...well sort of. Stripping shadows is a bummer here. Fixing shadows is a tough one though, as this can easily make things unbalanced. However, I think we can mostly leave shadows as is. Just add: "while under the effect of Mikage, an enemies attack can consume at most one shadow". I think that would allow Nins to really make use of this hidden treasure.
Traits
影の術 Kage no Jutsu I/II/III: Trait that gives Nin Macc and MAB equivalent to the MAcc and MAB traits but only for Ninjutsu (don't judge me for the naming...)
Skills
Make Ninjutsu skill A+
Make GKatana Skill B+
Nagi...
It already has MAcc+40 on it, so lets make it Nins casting REMA. Change aftermath to MAcc/MAB, remove enmity, increase MDmg to the tier after +219, stop tool consumption while Nagi equipped, make casts quick magic casts with Futae while Nagi is equipped in the main hand. Half Futae recast when used with a buff spell.
So the idea is to highly increase Nins debuffing capabilities but lock it behind WS uses. Potency is comparable, sometimes slightly higher than Rdms but with a lower variaty of effects. Also Nin has to be in the front row for full effect. Nin's survivablility mainly servers self preservation and since Nin has to be in the front row capping SB is easier now. Together with the new SDT- effect on Elemental Ninjutsu and increased MAB and MAcc hybrid WSs from Nin have the potential for great dmg with the right buffs. Also Nin adds more utility to a party (Def-, Att-, Acc-, Inhibit TP, etc). It should not take away anything from the job and should not yet be over powered since its locked behind element weaknesses as well as a combination of the right buffs, magic dmg susceptibility and TP use.
Thoughts?
By Solonuke 2021-02-28 11:07:51
Making ninjas not lose their buffs after using Mijin Gakure is a good place to start.
[+]
 Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2021-02-28 11:39:25
Too overpowered. Not enough nerf power. Frontline Rdm had always been SE dream. That's why Rdm got so much solo power these days. Now you want another MP-less Rdm with 750hp/tic poison to kite around. Even you feel it's ridiculous. What's to stop a nin+sch combo to kite tough NM around with their DOT?
Instead, if you wanted in to be a support job, you need it to have the possibility of replacing one of the support position instead playing DD with support power. Otherwise, you will have to cripple the job other it would be too powerful.
For example, you could leave in as is but allow Rune's Gambit power to their WS or maybe Rayke power and increase Ninja magic accuracy drastically. That will turn ninja towards more magic DD.
Or you can and shift Ninja towards support and replacing one of the support slot then you will need ninja to have some form of buffing power and increase their magic accuracy. I think most of the Ninja debuff you suggested would be fine except the poison one. I would suggest it to weaken defense instead. Then make the Ninja buffs stronger (triple it) and AOE.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-02-28 12:46:52
Drastically increase Yu poison. Make it start at about 500 per tic
Lol. Not gonna lie, some of these are kind of goofy ideas, others are salient and have been mentioned before.
Making ninjas not lose their buffs after using Mijin Gakure is a good place to start.
A good place to start is to give Ninja's the exact same Mijin Gakure as the ones monsters have access to: AOE, Doesn't kill you (can do it like final sting for blue, 1HP And add 30 second weakness), does large non elemental damage. This way, you don't lose buffs, you don't need reraise (though it's decent for dropping your hate), and can keep going. The only problem I see going with this route is that you can't use it as a free weakness removal tool, but you could only do that once/45 minutes anyways and I would much rather keep the buffs anyways.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3113
By Asura.Aeonova 2021-02-28 12:47:39
Nin, being one of my all time favorite jobs (love the concept and lore behind it)
The "lore" behind NIN is that Ayame's mom was the ho of Norg.
By Pantafernando 2021-02-28 12:49:48
Allow Mijin Gakure to magic burst
By Pantafernando 2021-02-28 13:09:44
The "lore" behind NIN is that Ayame's mom was the ho of Norg.
Pics or didnt exist
By Bahadir 2021-02-28 14:50:57
What's to stop a nin+sch combo to kite tough NM around with their DOT? Well, currently they could already do that even though Nin would barely contribute to dmg and rather act as tank to kite around.
The 750 dmg per tic would require Nin to land Dokomori Ni first and then use Teki to buff it to 3 and no other poison could land during that time. And then still it would be "only" 250 DPS.
I feel like Sch can do more dmg per tic already easily without the requirement to get TP in the front line first.
But ok, thats poision dmg being perceived as too high.
By Bahadir 2021-02-28 14:55:26
Lol. Not gonna lie, some of these are kind of goofy ideas, others are salient and have been mentioned before I know some of these ideas have been mentioned before (and probably should have stated that in the OP) but could you elaborate a bit more which ideas are goofy?
I noticed in the quote you give the "starts at 500tic" doesnt make sense. Remove the "starts at". But here again. Considering how the WS itself doesnt do a lot of damage at 3k TP this would even under best circumstances not even reach the WS dmg of a properly buffed Cor or Drk and thats over the duration of 270 sec. So I saw it more as a situational thing that could turn out useful. But ok, I see that the poison damage is perceived as too high. Will keep that in mind.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-02-28 16:02:16
could you elaborate a bit more which ideas are goofy?
Some that were kind of odd (i dont mean any offense by "goofy", just seemingly out of place):
Buff Hybrid WS, but not Phys WS. IMO, it should be the other way around. Hybrid WS are already very good. Buffing it just makes it even stronger for higher buffs, because people will keep piling on buffs anyways. Its the physical ws that need improvement. Naegling/Savage Blade should not be superior to anything Katana can offer for physical ws, that simply is not right.
Using Gkt. It's cute on paper, but why? NIN has DW job ability haste, but nothing for 2 hand. They also are not on any really useful grips besides (all jobs) R15 Rigorous +1, but that seems like a goofy playstyle. Cool for Ageha, and I guess Gekko for silence, but not really for damage. NIN can multistep faster and better on Katanas, and I like NIN on Katanas because it's one of the main reasons you play NIN. The other is ninjutsu, shadows, shurikens throwing. I would hate to have to sub SAM for Hasso to make something like that work. NIN on Katanas and SAM on Great Katanas is what distinguishes the jobs.
I think some of the Ninjutsu ideas are cool, but the Futae aoe buff one is a little odd. Futae is on a 3-min timer, and both Kakka+Myoshu last 5 minutes. Making it AOE means you can full-time SBII and have a 1min lapse on STP+20, or vice versa (STP+20 fulltime). It also allows you to cap SB2 with zero additional gear. But why would you give multiple players SBII since many bodies kinda defeats the purpose of subtle blow? Especially if they aren't wearing gear to cap SB1. I just don't see that being practical. I would much rather Futae be something like a stance that can use 2 Ninjutsu items for every spell, for an enhanced effect. That way, if you want to enhance your buffs for one minute, you can. if you want to buff your MB/nukes for 1 min, you can. 1-use seems like not enough.
The elemental hybrid -> debuff potency is interesting, but I am not understanding why hybrid element is tied to debuffs at all. Seems like it would make more sense if it were tied to elemental ninjutsu effects, since it falls in line with the resistances thing.
I don't think NIN should get same level of Inhibit TP as a monk, because again, this can be done fulltime. MOnk at least has it on a timer, but NIN can now use the same effect (minus 5% merits and 100% effect from Penance) fulltime?
Giving NIN the effect of Rayke is something that would be unique and fun, but then it would be fulltime effect, right? If not and we go with the 90sec re-use timer on San spells, now Ninja is hindered from nuking just from that weird effect? It can't even participate in a proper nuke group because of that change.
One thing I actually wish they did was give NINs lower tier WS the MNK treatment. I do like WS like Blade: Yu, Blade Retsu, Blade: Kamu because of the poison, paralyze, and accuracy down effects. I would bump up those effects a bit, but more so I would like the WS to just be stronger so we could use them and not have to spend time casting (unless its a higher tier). Kikoku makes using Retsu kinda useless anyways.
I wish something was done with Sange, it's not even that great anymore.
[+]
By Bahadir 2021-02-28 16:34:18
Thank you for the explanations!
Buff Hybrid WS, but not Phys WS. IMO, it should be the other way around. Hybrid WS are already very good. Buffing it just makes it even stronger for higher buffs, because people will keep piling on buffs anyways. Its the physical ws that need improvement. Naegling/Savage Blade should not be superior to anything Katana can offer for physical ws, that simply is not right. I see your point here... my thought was to shift the focus of Nin away from physical WS and towards hybrid WSs. Buffing the physical part was a way to make them a bit more viable when underbuffed but since there is a damage cap and they are already getting close to or at that cap in a high buff scenario.... but yea maybe thats not the right way to make hybrid ways easier to use.
Using Gkt. It's cute on paper, but why? Mostly to provide diversity. Since hybrid WSs are associated with a certain element I wanted to make it more viable for Nin to use them, without even consdering Nin using GKat for anything else but that. Definitely agree to everything else you said here.
but the Futae aoe buff one is a little odd Hmm....admit that I didnt consider the full timeabilitiy with the Futae aoe application. Thats indeed imporant to keep in mind. Ill reconsider that.
but I am not understanding why hybrid element is tied to debuffs at all That was just an idea for a sort of new mechanic I had. There are ability that enhance debuffs and WSs that provide debuffs but no WSs that enahnce debuffs yet so I thought it might combine two aspects of the job.
Giving NIN the effect of Rayke is something that would be unique and fun, but then it would be fulltime effect, right? Not sure I see why this would prevent Nin from nuking? You could still nuke normally. Just if you d like to make use of the resistance effect you need to "spin the wheel". So to enhance the dmg of the next Light SC bursting fire you could cast hyoton before and then katon to burst. Would just require some more coordination.
Maybe it wasnt clear how I intended this to work.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-02-28 16:43:08
Not sure I see why this would prevent Nin from nuking?
I was looking at this part, the bolded:
Quote: Change elemental Ninjutsu effect to give SDT- similar to Rayke for 6 sec (before merits)). One tier down for Ni spells,
2 tiers down for San spells. Duration does not refresh/overwrite, the weak element will overwrite. Increase recast for San spells to 90sec. (even with max fast cast you cannot full time the SDT- effect like that with just one Nin)
90 seconds seems harsh for the effect. You are basically hindered from MBing because you would have to rely too much on timers. San > Ni > will San be ready by the next MB window?
 Asura.Sechs
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10136
By Asura.Sechs 2021-02-28 16:53:17
Some of your ideas are really cool Bahadir, but I can't really imagine SE going as far as turning NIN into a strange DD that focuses on Hybrid WSs to empower their Debuffs in a way that cannot possibly be resisted by NMs or special NMs and making them even more powerful than RDMs.
I think if they will ever fix NIN (and that's not gonna happen, they will just give NIN a WSD boost and I'll be glad to take it) then I think they need to focus on its main two roles, and that's Being a tank and being a DD.
How can they do that? By tweaking Innin and Yonin.
1) Make them undispellable
2) Make so the effects do not decay over time.
3) Remove the positional requirement
At that point I wouldn't mind 5min shared cooldown or even more.
Then they need to differentiate their roles.
Innin has to boost the DPS while making it virtually impossible to tank stuff.
Yonin has to make Tank solid, while somehow reducing the DPS capabilities.
This is for balance reasons. Yonin obviously will grant some strong defensive buffs, if you allow NIN to deal too much damage while Yonin is up, people could exploit it by having an army of NINs with Yonin up that do lotsa DPS while benefitting from the defensive values of Yonin, we don't really want that, do we?
So to go about it again:
Innin: boosts dps, makes tanking harder/impossible
Yonin: boosts survival/tanking, reduces dps.
How can we achieve this goal?
I'm not sure. It could be something like this: Innin
* -10/20% Reduced enmity
* Greatly reduced Eva
* Unable to parry
* Increased utsusemi recasts?
* +20/30% crit
* +X% special WSD, applying to all hits
* +X physical and ranged accuracy
Yonin
* Greatly increased Eva
* All damage done -X%
* Multiplier to Damage>Enmity conversion (so that the enmity generated will be the same as if your damage didn't get reduced by the previous point)
* +20/30 Enmity
* Special damage reduction from Shadows. Basically if a move/spell wipes all your shadow, that move is gonna deal less damage to you as if you had DTII -X%. This amount will vary according to the amount of shadows that got wiped, a small amount for each shadow. Not sure this could work, maybe? But noway SE will ever go that far. As I said before I'll feel lucky if they'll just give us a small boost to our physical WSs, which are possibly the worst part of NIN atm.
[+]
By Nariont 2021-02-28 17:27:36
as stated, its the phys ws that need a modest boost, though i wouldnt be shocked if they just went the h2h route and overdo it(wont complain either). The ninjutsu ideas are pretty neat, but personally id link alot of those to futae and turn it either into a sabo and make it a normal duration buff, or apply a charge style system to it, but for debuffs/buff ninjutsus it doubles the potency/duration, can base the duration around skill, and of course resists, in the case of nukes you keep the rayke effect but its duration is set to about 30s~ so you cant keep it going forever in either duration/charge process.
So futae jubaku goes from 20 -> 40 para for example, keeps the static nature of the debuff as well as keeping them below RDM's level when you start adding +potency and sabo enhancements, can apply this to self-buffs so you get your stp+20/SBII, personally not very keen on making buffs aoe, atleast not sbII/miga.
I wish something was done with Sange, it's not even that great anymore.
Would just turn it into FW for throwing, and remove the whole loss of ammunition aspect, just make it give a racc/ratk/dmg increase in exchange for a flat daken+ effect vs 100%, can get close enough to 100% now anyway with gear, alternatively would love if they actually introduced shurikens with added effects or elemental dmg and sange would boost the effect/dmg in exchange for eating shurikens like normal but highly doubt youll ever see a shuriken that gives anything beyond minimal stats
EDIT: Also, for the spells you only have ichi's of, make the ichi variant's cast times the same as Ni's or as suggested add in Ni's of them
By Bahadir 2021-02-28 17:28:49
San be ready by the next MB window? Ah now I see what you mean. Well, capped recast reduction would set the recast to 18sec on San spells. Probably too much to MB off every SC. My intention was to prevent one Nin from being able to provide the effect full time to make it not too powerful but I agree it does diminish the ability to MB with San spells that way. Its a trade off. Worth balancing a bit more to not hamper Nins nuking too much Maybe reduce effect time more to be able to go back to 60sec recast on Sans.
By Bahadir 2021-02-28 17:32:50
I can't really imagine SE going as far as turning NIN into [...] Ah no doubts here. They d never do anything like that... it was really just a thought experiment for fun.
By Thunderjet 2021-03-01 16:37:50
nin has no problems on debuffs at wave 3 tho after fetters go down. but parry buffs would be neat, just imagine the possibilities with nin/rune
 Leviathan.Draugo
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2775
By Leviathan.Draugo 2021-03-03 02:17:47
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Using Gkt. It's cute on paper, but why?
Mostly to provide diversity. Since hybrid WSs are associated with a certain element I wanted to make it more viable for Nin to use them, without even consdering Nin using GKat for anything else but that. Definitely agree to everything else you said here.
Rather them increase possible use of guns instead, i.e. expand what 119 level guns can be equipped, as well as bullets.
I agree, GK should not be taken too seriously for NIN, although, a GK plus Gun combo could be a "mode" ala oda nobunata nod. But as mentioned, need grip options, and better guns and ammo.
[+]
By Shichishito 2021-03-03 02:40:37
since NINs tend to solo well and use mijin gakure to whipe weakness (?) wouldn't it make sense to give it some sort of DoT effect to make sure the mob doesn't start regening HP while you resummon trusts and buff?
or would that lead to the mob going after you when you raise?
By Thunderjet 2021-03-03 07:40:16
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Using Gkt. It's cute on paper, but why?
Mostly to provide diversity. Since hybrid WSs are associated with a certain element I wanted to make it more viable for Nin to use them, without even consdering Nin using GKat for anything else but that. Definitely agree to everything else you said here.
Rather them increase possible use of guns instead, i.e. expand what 119 level guns can be equipped, as well as bullets.
I agree, GK should not be taken too seriously for NIN, although, a GK plus Gun combo could be a "mode" ala oda nobunata nod. But as mentioned, need grip options, and better guns and ammo.
nin/rng hot shot days were awesome at early exp parties in, yuhtunga, NIN/rng barrage would be nice if they ever allow THAT Into throwing
Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2021-03-03 09:47:14
A lot of ideas are like this "It looks interesting! Let's do that thing nobody.has done before!" it's cool but at some point you have to imagine how the job is going to function in the game compare to other jobs. What position it's going to fill and how would people flesh out the party with that job.
If you remove the poison then you're looking at a slightly beefed up Rdm/Nin with none of the critical spells. It doesn't cost MP to cast so it's some what of a niche but missing distract, dispel and sleep and other spells would make the job less attractive.
Ninja is a bit underwhelming because it's WS power is fairly lacking compare to other one-handed DD and they aren't that attractive to the DD pool in the mind of the average player. If you want Non to go down the DD route then definitely tinker with WS damage aspect rather than giving it debuff powers.
Now if you ignore then DD aspect of Nin and want to turn it into a support DD with magical powers then You have to beef up Ninja ability to support the party. I would go as far as giving it strait at least 2-3 of the 6 major buff/debuff power (atk, def, acc/macc, matk, meva and TP generation) as well as a variety of crucial spells effects like dispel, sleep and bind.
If you want Ninja to be more of a tank then it's definitely enmity generation tools followed by damage reduction. Something like Foil and access to enmity gear would be a good start then tinker with Ninja shadows so they would be less of totally blocking damage but more resilient in getting wiped out.
By Thunderjet 2021-03-03 09:52:40
i was just testing AA sp's with a full magic evasion set was able to avoid mithra charm /rune i dont see why i should level rune? and face rolled AA elvaan with regen 2, i honestly dont think ninja needs any changes outside of more parry rate and magic accuracy for enfeeb, maybe evasion buff and change how shadows work?
By Thunderjet 2021-03-03 11:27:46
only way nin would be 'good' remove innin yonin, front back bs.
then pump its numbers, both ws and elemental.
then add mijin don't die and a dot with it.
will this happen, nope, will your dumb experiment happen nope.
forget this dumb topic.
DID YOUR WIFE CHEAT ON YOU!!!!
Leviathan.Draugo
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2775
By Leviathan.Draugo 2021-03-03 13:35:22
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Using Gkt. It's cute on paper, but why?
Mostly to provide diversity. Since hybrid WSs are associated with a certain element I wanted to make it more viable for Nin to use them, without even consdering Nin using GKat for anything else but that. Definitely agree to everything else you said here.
Rather them increase possible use of guns instead, i.e. expand what 119 level guns can be equipped, as well as bullets.
I agree, GK should not be taken too seriously for NIN, although, a GK plus Gun combo could be a "mode" ala oda nobunata nod. But as mentioned, need grip options, and better guns and ammo.
nin/rng hot shot days were awesome at early exp parties in, yuhtunga, NIN/rng barrage would be nice if they ever allow THAT Into throwing Or give us some WS's with throwing, and or a REMA type boomerang, and or boomerang that works with daken, at the expense of ammo swapping.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-03-03 13:41:11
If you want Ninja to be more of a tank then it's definitely enmity generation tools followed by damage reduction. Something like Foil and access to enmity gear would be a good start then tinker with Ninja shadows so they would be less of totally blocking damage but more resilient in getting wiped out.
Ninja has access to yonin which greatly improves it's hate generation with utsusemi cycling. It doesn't really need foil. As far as damage mitigation goes, it can use one of the highest meva sets in the game and has access to migawari. It's not hurting in that department either. There's also only one slot (head) ninja lacks a solid enmity piece, it can cover pretty much every other slot just fine if it's just for a swap macro. They do lack enmity/damage mitigation in the same piece, but that's a minor issue. The only issue is shadow consumption, which would be fight dependant.
Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2021-03-03 13:43:27
So like melee throwing Rangers with DW, MB and more shadows? It's not a bad idea actually. They can beef up damage with MB so it's not bad. They will need a bunch of extra store TP though.
I don't know about ninja relying on yonnin to tank, it feels too depended upon getting their shadows up and hard to super tank in that. They also need something to super tank in. They really need ways to keep their shadows effective for longer than just a few hits without constantly recasting them. Also probably need crusade.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-03-03 14:39:28
They also need something to super tank in
Explain what you mean by this please? Do you mean gear-wise? Which stat are they lacking?
it feels too depended upon getting their shadows up and hard to super tank in that
Maybe we have been looking at supertanking on NIN incorrectly. You can't reasonably keep 7 shadows up vs 10 monsters. So you have to build around those 7+6+5 shadows and mitigate your damage in other ways. There are ways.
Also probably need crusade
Think you might be underestimating Yonin/Utsusemi shadow generation. If you have a bard, Sirvente instead of an attack song since the focus of supertank is not dps.
[+]
 Sylph.Reain
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 404
By Sylph.Reain 2021-03-03 20:48:45
You can't reasonably expect to keep 7 shadows up against 1 monster. And they made the whole job revolve around Utsusemi.
It's not even worth casting Utsusemi unless it's against something that's gonna truck you like Fu/Ou after Ebullient Nullification, except for enmity.
Maybe a slight exception for this month's ambu for saving buffs.
Disclaimer: Long post! If you don't love Nin: There is nothing to see here! Keep moving...
This is not targeted at anything really (certainly not SE) but rather a game design exercise for myself where I spell out some ideas I had for Nin as a job. I am curious to hear what you guys think, how and if that would fit into the game and/or make the job more attractive in current end game content.
Nin, being one of my all time favorite jobs (love the concept and lore behind it), still sort of lacks a clear vision from SE. So I was searching for something that makes it worth using but balanced and not OP in every situation. Something that is fun to play and captures the lore of a Nin, fits into the current game as well as keeps alive what players currently like about Nin.
So for this I came up with something that Nin partly already is but would like to max out the potential here.
Hybrid (= phys/magic) debuff DD
i.e. focus on the hybrid weapon skills that Nin already has (Chi/To/Teki/Kagero/Jinpu/Goten) as a way to enhance its debuffs to a usable level.
Reasoning: Debuffing used to be an important part of the job but the potency has not at all kept up with the pace of the rest of the game. I am looking at you 3HP/tick poison from Dokumori: Ichi ... Also, Nin is the only job that gets access to hybrid WSs for all (of the 6) elements if you include GKatana. I feel these have great potential but are under used by the current game design due to nature and amount of buffs they require.
As a quick summary: My ideas are to slightly buff hybrid WSs to make them less reliant on heavy buffs, increase Nins GKat capabilities to make Nin + GKat a valid option, significantly increase debuff potency, have hybrid WS of certain element increase debuff potency similar to Cor shots. Along with some over due fixes...
In detail:
WS
Leave phys WS dmg as they are
Slightly increase katana hybrid WS dmg by increasing the fTP for the phys part.
Make Blade: Ei a one phys hit hybrid similar to To/Teki
Drastically increase Yu poison. Make it start at about 500 per tic, possibility to be resisted for half dmg. Subsequent uses increase the damage for the overlapping timer to a max stack of 5. thats "only" 45k dmg over 270 sec per use at 3kTP so probably still barely usable but could be nice on enemies that force you to turn or hold TP for some reason or another.
para from Retsu and put it on To, add (weak) blind to Ei, change Acc- on Kamu to inhibit TP that stacks with Yurin, add (weak) poison to Teki, add (weak) slow to Chi
Give Nin access to Kasha and Shoha to acknowledge that Nins can wield (G)Katanas...
Here is the meat:
Using a hybrid WS of the corresponding element buffs a Ninjutsu debuff to a next tier, e.g. using Blade: Ei when Kurayami: Ni is in effect increases potency to the III level for the remainder of the debuff. This works on all Ninjutsu debuffs, including Yurin and Aisha. Only works once on the same debuff (similar to Cor shots).
Ninjutsu
Change elemental Ninjutsu effect to give SDT- similar to Rayke for 6 sec (before merits)). One tier down for Ni spells,
2 tiers down for San spells. Duration does not refresh/overwrite, the weak element will overwrite. Increase recast for San spells to 90sec. (even with max fast cast you cannot full time the SDT- effect like that with just one Nin)
Give Nin access to Jubaku Ni and Dokumori: Ni
Buff all debuff effects and make some of them scale with Ninjutsu skill (see hybrid WS for III/II effects):
- Kurayami III: scales with skill. Max about -120 Acc so a bit stronger than Blind II, does not stack with Blind
- Hojo III: about 35% so an alternative to Slow II
- Dokumori III: scales with skill. Up to about 750 per tick, does not stack with other poison effects. Duration 180 sec for a max of 45k dmg over 3min.
- Jubaku III scales with skill. comparable to Para II on max
- Yurin II: same as penance value of 25% fix
- Aisha II : ~ 30% Attack Down scale with skill,
Increase duration of self enhancing Ninjutsu by 50%
Increase self enhancing Ninjutsu potency:
- Kakka: scale with skill, up to STP+20. a) to make up for the DPS loss when being forced to cast it and b) since Nin will rely more on different WS now
- Myoshin: scale with skill up to +20, make it SB II. that way Myoshin and merits cap SB II (see Merit section)
Leave shadows as they are right now
Merits
A restructure here is long overdue. How the king of shadows, silent killer, the job with second highest native SB can have such a hard time capping SB II is beyond me. First things first: make SB merits SB II. Keep the effect at 1 per merit.
Next remove the element specific merits completely. Instead:
Increase ninjutsu resistance down effect duration by 2 seconds. (see Ninjutsu section)
Increase Issekigan effect: increase parrying rate by 2% per merit level, 1% on NMs (see Abilities)
Ninjutsu magic effect duration by 6sec per merit, one category for buffs and one for debuffs (does not include elemental resistance down)
Reduce Futae recast timer by 6 sec
Job points
Make the casting time category also affect recast.
Abilities
Issekigan: Enmity + while using Yonin but Enmity- when using Innin. Make parry a flat % similar to Battuta to a moderate 20% (30 with merits).
Innin/Yonin: Remove decay, remove position requirement.
Futae: Turn this into a better elemental seal for Ninjutsu only: very high MAcc bonus, keep the dmg bonus, make buffs aoe in party when used.
Mijin Gakure: Always give RR effect, laaaargly increase dmg, make dmg scale with Ninjutsu skill up to ~40k dmg. If only to see hordes of Nins blowing up again haha
Mikage: Such an awesome ability already. Really underrated...well sort of. Stripping shadows is a bummer here. Fixing shadows is a tough one though, as this can easily make things unbalanced. However, I think we can mostly leave shadows as is. Just add: "while under the effect of Mikage, an enemies attack can consume at most one shadow". I think that would allow Nins to really make use of this hidden treasure.
Traits
影の術 Kage no Jutsu I/II/III: Trait that gives Nin Macc and MAB equivalent to the MAcc and MAB traits but only for Ninjutsu (don't judge me for the naming...)
Skills
Make Ninjutsu skill A+
Make GKatana Skill B+
Nagi...
It already has MAcc+40 on it, so lets make it Nins casting REMA. Change aftermath to MAcc/MAB, remove enmity, increase MDmg to the tier after +219, stop tool consumption while Nagi equipped, make casts quick magic casts with Futae while Nagi is equipped in the main hand. Half Futae recast when used with a buff spell.
So the idea is to highly increase Nins debuffing capabilities but lock it behind WS uses. Potency is comparable, sometimes slightly higher than Rdms but with a lower variaty of effects. Also Nin has to be in the front row for full effect. Nin's survivablility mainly servers self preservation and since Nin has to be in the front row capping SB is easier now. Together with the new SDT- effect on Elemental Ninjutsu and increased MAB and MAcc hybrid WSs from Nin have the potential for great dmg with the right buffs. Also Nin adds more utility to a party (Def-, Att-, Acc-, Inhibit TP, etc). It should not take away anything from the job and should not yet be over powered since its locked behind element weaknesses as well as a combination of the right buffs, magic dmg susceptibility and TP use.
Thoughts?
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