Discussion: How To Make BLM More Relevant

Seems like we're mostly agreeing then, but confused about the terminology or possibly accidently strawmanning each other.

I don't think too many people are saying BLM is the hottest thing on Vana'diel right now because OMG Sortie! I think they're saying the answer to "How to make BLM relevant again" has been answered: they did it in Sortie.

It's also worth noting that BLM is good not only because of the WS wall, but also because the mobs have really annoying mechanics which prevent melee from being as effective: F boss has stuns and/or steals your buffs, G boss does knockback, bind, and removes your TP. These things are death knells for Savage spam. They weren't nearly as bad on B/C because the mobs had way less HP and fewer mechanics, but I think Sortie in general is a masterclass on how to make mages relevant.

No you wouldn't, PDL usually means dropping WSD, which result in few % gain overall, not 52% you would need to go from 65k to 99k. None is hitting 70k+ Savage on regular basis beside DRG (but DRG has no TP bonus for it, so you need 2000+ TP to do it). RNG is usually second close. DRK could probably push it that high too, but with terrible WS frequency. Then you have probably WAR and NIN. RDM is also pretty high on the list, because of +60 STR from gainSTR.

I was doing ABCD every day and haven't seen a single 70k+ Savage blade on A boss and 60k was rare. People also usually don't use GEO now for melee setup, unless you 6 box and try to beef up single DD.

Summed up beautifully.


Current end game is always the most relevant and it doesn't matter what was 1 year ago and what will happen next. COR Leaden gain massive popularity only because of DynamisD. Most if not all the pug shouts right now attempting basement bosses are nuke strategies.

RNG works great with BLM and SCH, but it's not as good as 2x SCH and BLM. Also RNG trashes E and G bosses, but on F and H Trueflight is very low damage and RNG is only to make skillchain there.

The only melee strategy that I think could work would be 2 MNKs, WHM, COR, BRD, GEO. MNKs should have low enough TP feed with 100% uptime on Penance to avoid most annoying tp moves and mechanics and their balance between white damage and hard hitting (at 2000+ TP) WS every 10 sec should be enough with that much support. I haven't tried that personally tho.

Topic — How to make BLM more Relevant

SE did such Exclusively for Sortie themselves via implementing a “WS Wall” into Sortie Boss Fights

Sortie is just 1 form of Battle Content that does NOT transcend the Issue itself nor the Game’s Mechanics that were NOT Deleted simply via Sortie being Added to FFXI content.

Moving forward the Topic remains present while Sortie itself becomes Old & Outdated all while BLM itself is still facing the same Problematic scenario regardless of Sortie existence or non existence in the Game.

Sortie simply did NOT fix the dilemma of BLM
— which is what the actual Topic was & is about

Topic — Is BLM useful for Sortie?
That’s NOT the actual Topic here in Discussion
Such demands SE adjust the whole Game to Return to the Basics not just add Sortie 2.0

I don't actually disagree with any of your larger points but I was pretty sure I did over 70k pretty commonly on RNG so looked at one of the few recordings I still have from A-D runs and found this:


My highest against the A boss was 68499 from that run and all but one was over 60k. I did have frailty dia and chaos as relevant buffs/debuffs. In fact looking over all the bosses that run only a handful of sub 60k savages from my RNG. Probably mostly because we were running a GEO.

Start looking back in this thread, not just the past 3 pages, and one sees its the same damn argument for 4 years in this thread. And from what I see, there's only 3 types of people in this discussion:

1. Those who realize BLM is fine where it is. It has some content moments where it shines and really is the best option by such a large window that talk of "BLM is dead" just amuses us.

2. Those who want BLM to be a DD we can use on any content. Its never going to be this, but they want a simple boomboom job with the equivalent challenge a Naegling job has....they just like the shiny boombooms of spell damage vs weapon damage. From what I gather, these folks care little about game mechanics, they just want to win a game their way or it sucks.

3. Those who say BLM is dead and needs to either be retired or completely re-designed. Also will never happen, and honestly most espousing this angle come across as having not played the game in three years.

Its the same. damn. argument. BLM has moments it gets to succeed, but they are fewer than DD jobs. But SE definitely in the past 2 years has moved to where damage type, not just damage numbers, matter in the big fights and are forcing us to change things up to win.

...and in a game where you can completely max out 22 different classes and swap at will between encounters, why would anyone just want content that doesn't force different damage types? Otherwise, why make 22 jobs in the first place?

Duh just gotta step up and whip out the BBC

Big Black Club.

....though maybe SE should change the original opening movie for the game that shows armies of BLMs sync-casting...that didn't age well.

I agree w/ this 100% as in BLM Zerg MB setup is indeed unique compared to DD Zerg setups in 6 man content. I just think DD doing WS spam vs Highest End content is The actual Problem atm.

Nothing Wrong w/ DD Zerg gameplay neither btw.
This ain’t nothing NEW to FFXI at all either & is much older than BLM Zerg Strats themselves.

I am looking at 99,999 WSD &/or simple WS spam being so Great in actual DPS that it totally Negates doing SC any longer which Ultimately leads to nobody even being capable of doing a MB for Dmg if nobody needs to any longer create an actual SC.

I’m not exactly sure How SE is seriously planning on toning down the WSD moving forward minus Bosses taking -90% Dmg cuz it’s obvious that Sortie 2.0 quick fix via 8s before next WS does any Dmg is not even implemented anywhere outside of Sortie.

I think BLM is FINE as is as a Job. I just don’t know How exactly SE plans on keeping the Core gameplay of SC being relevant in FFXI minus toning down our Dmg done via DD spam of WS.

Do they just keep adding “WS Wall” to future Content?
Very doubtful but we will find out soon enough sooner or later.

Do they Nerf our Dmg or simply just give Bosses -90% DT? Idk tbh

Maybe they just keep doing like Odyssey Bosses forcing ourselves to eventually SC ever so often?
That’s just as plausible as any other outcome for the Future of content.

I paid to gear the whole BLM, I want to use the whole BLM.

SE has used 3 methods to force us away from the Savage All the Thinnngz meta recently, and all three methods have worked-


1. Repeat WS mechanic seen at moments in Dynamis-D.
2. specific damage types needed in Sheol:Gaol.
3. "WS Wall" that applies to ALL back-to-back WSs in Sortie.

They clearly just want variance in a way that different content/battles need different sources of damage. The balance isn't in the way some players wanted in that "any job can be an effective DD so I can always play my favorite". And I'm quite ok with that.

Yeah I am NOT against SE trying to force ourselves into utilizing Multiple different Strats in order to WIN.

Cannot just Stun LOCK all TP moves on SCH for the rest of my life and seriously claim I am enjoying playing FFXI.

Whatever path SE chooses to make BLM relevant is the path we must end up taking as well ourselves whom are all just going along for the ride.

I am just concerned about what y’all labeled as being the “Power Creep” in FFXI cuz it’s kinda diminishing FFXI into spam-fest if such remains forever Unchecked, which ofc I doubt it actually will be, since SE does indeed value Diversity in Combat.

Thats been the MO since CoP, beyond the ws wall the cycles basically the same

-new content has nm with high dmg aoe/debilitating debuffs making it inefficient/dangerous to use melees
-gear gets added that makes the dds more durable or able to overcome the problem long enough to zerg it down
-melees are the go-to meta and repeat til next content.

Walls just as lazy as the nuke wall at band-aiding the problem of melee dmg(and now ranged) vs everything else. Now with non-mages able to output similar magic dmg via ws.

Yeah, like I said RNG should be second best to DRG. I was suspecting RNG can break 70k, but I would guess most of the time, it would still be below that threshold. Thx for info.

For NA, BLM was the original zerg. That's why it got nerfed. Manaburn parties for XP, BLM merc parties to get KS30 clears, BLMs time-nuking statues in Dynamis to avoid problematic spawns, free nuking early HNM claims and logging for hate when you ran out of MP to give an outside BLM your spot in the alliance. Want to kill something? Throw BLMs at it.

If you did have melee DDs in the alliance on a boss, there were usually only 1-2 two-handers, frequently /THF to TA their WS on the tank or SA so they wouldn't miss the WS when flails weren't an issue, to limit TP gain and only to make a SC for the BLMs. The THF got to poke it once for TH, then watched the rest of the fight outside of the alliance. For certain bosses, MNKs would be allowed to boooooooooost, get invited, Chi Blast, and get booted. If there were weaker mobs to build TP on, DDs with swords would put on HP+ gear and build to max TP, then get rotated in briefly for Spirits Within so they could participate.

It took a long time to start seeing melee burns. The coordination of multiple BRDs switching parties to get 6 songs up on several well-geared melee DDs was unheard of because there weren't that many BRDs or well-geared melee DDs. In my experience, it wasn't until the concept of the KC DRK that it really took off.

Now, besides all the issues already mentioned, BLM suffers from the same problem as shooting RNG, pet jobs, etc. It's easier and more efficient to recruit and organize a party to stack melee buffs. Trying to boost magic or pet performance? You're taking buffs (damage) away from a melee DD. Trying to fit in a SC for the BLM to MB? You're reducing the number of WS (damage) from a melee DD.

Historically, we as NA players are driven to innovate in order to be lazy/efficient and bypass as many mechanics as possible. The only reason we're ever going to change from braindead/streamlined tactics is when we're forced to do so by the devs.

BLM just need Ultima. Multi hit spell

Well now I'm kinda waiting for them to add WS wall to the last tier of Bumba so I can watch the community collectively lose their mind.

How can I get the gear to spam the WSs, WHEN I CAN'T SPAM THE WSs!?

It would become unkillable then. "But Do the Mechanic!!!" doesn't work when the mechanic is completely random.

It can be one of
Do multiple sequential crits after open
Do a multi-step SC
Do multiple WS's simultaneously after open
Do multiple bursts after open

And while you are figuring it out, BAM 4K denounce flattens everyone, if multiple exploding fetters don't.

We WS zerg him because it's the only realistic way to beat him. And even then, with the super short rage timer on V20, frequently you get the fetters and have to either pray for crits, or kill it before Denounce flattens everyone. Someone was working on a TP denial method, not sure if they were ever successful with it.

We love fights with mechanics, we hate fights with random mechanics, they are just Pachinko machines.

I'm in the camp that sortie was exactly what black mage needed. The biggest thing holding black mage back was the type of content s-e released over the past half decade. Everything has been almost strictly melee burn, and beyond omen and dynamis there hasn't been a lot of new content up until oddy, and even then, it was unity Nms and HTBF's which favored melee strategies. You'll recall in the original iteration of vagary blm was highly sought after, and that trend follows here with sortie. The most relevant content is the current content, so if the current content favors blm (and yes, a mage setup is the most efficient way to go about 6-8 boss runs), then blm has a place in end game again.


This mechanic is starting to get really annoying and it's more heavy handed of s-e than the walls IMO. We originally thought that those 4k denounces from bumba were a glitch, but s-e implemented the same timed "ultimate aoe" on Triboulex, Aita, and Aminon. That makes it pretty clear that the enrage timer on bumba's denounce was intentional. I'm gonna call them out on this one. In the case of bumba specifically, I think giving players 15 minutes to clear the fight upon entering the zone, only to immediately kill off everyone if you don't clear the battle in 3 minutes is bad game design. At least in sortie the back lines can run out of range, but bumba is kill or bust. That's pretty lame.

Hmmm not really, this is only possible because SE deliberately imposed a 10s handicap on all weapon skills. If that 10s handicap didn't exist then melee burn would by far be the fastest way to clear those boss's. The issues with Black Mage still exist, piss poor damage over time performance and limited party scaling with magic spells in general.

Tieing one boxers hands behind their back doesn't fix the issues with the other one.

Valid counterpoint. I can't really refute that. I think s-e at least went out of their way to try to make content that included blm this time though, and that's at least part of what we need to see. They're at least acknowledging in some fashion that the melee onry strategies have gotten out of hand. But they've designed themselves into a corner at this point, and it shows. If the best fixes they can come up with are forcing heavy handed handicaps to entire systems then its an underlying sign that the systems themselves are broken.

The systems are broken, and its far too late in the game to redirect it short of an entire magic dmg overhaul(again), otherwise you gotta scale back WSD which many wouldnt appreciate, even if it would potentially line its dmg back into place with not just nukes but blu spells, pet abilities etc.

Tried that for my first V20 Bumba attempt, but he appears to gain severe damage reduction overtime (probably broken by proccing, but didn't bother experimenting). My damage on MNK eventually was doing like 10% of what it should've been. Melee hits were in double digits by 65%ish HP.

Pretty sure Lex was doing Bumba V20 with SMN doing Perfect Defence and they were proccing Bumba during PD window. It was still WS zerg beside that tho. Im pretty sure strategy to proc Bumba is very possible, especially that it's on timer, so you know exactly when to expect it. None was really trying to figure out such strategy, because it wasn't required, since zerg is easier.

You can see in video below, that it's possible to hold Bumba for 13 minutes after taking it down below 75%, so I'm sure it's also possible to proc it and kill it without Savage zerg.

Good. I got my semi-annual pachinko machine reference in a month early. Much appreciated.

Just realized I haven't posted the video XD

They should give BLM a stance called Doublecast. Allows spells to hit twice with 2 independent damage values for 1.5x MP cost and huge movement speed penalty. Only works on Elemental, single-target spells.

I just suggested double cast the other day with the exact same stipulations as far not including AOE damage. Would allow BLM to separate itself Fein the pack and can be the sole DD buster for a lot of setups.

Also, I have no idea what's going on in that video. But I knew it was going to be a real strategy the moment i saw who it was.

Use BST for Ooze then TP denial, and SC+MB for as much as you can before the timeout. RUN on main, PLD on add. Point is to just increase flexibility in the second run, RDM to sleep the add at start, and while I can't read Japanese I wouldn't be surprised if they slotted a THF in to Larceny since it should re-use 1hr. Normal Savage garbage otherwise. I think it's a great idea for people struggling to get the V20 clear considering they should already have a good BLM to have gotten past Ongo. Spend 6k segments for a much more consistent clear instead of rolling the dice however many times.

Two things they could do that would really help magic orientated strategies would be to remove the 5s elemental damage wall and reduce the global cooldown of spells from 3s to the same ~2s that weapon skills get. Those two issues combined is why magic casting as DPS is in such bad shape, we are forced into putting everything into big single hits instead of many smaller hit spread out. This isn't just for BLM, but also includes the other elemental casters of RDM, GEO and SCH.