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Opinions on rank of best damage dealers
Serveur: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24692
By Ifrit.Kungfuhustle 2009-10-09 18:41:43
Tousou said: Quote: Mnk certainly isn't last on the list, but w/ no gear restrictions, it won't be on top. Pre-hasso is another story but that extra 10% haste for 2handers is just killer. It's what -I- think. Sure, numbers could/would prove me wrong, but I couldn't care less. I just <3 Formless Strikes. In fact, just to piss people off: 1. MNK2. BLM 3. WAR 4. DRG 5. PUP 6. BLU 7. THF 8. RNG 9. SMN 10. RDM 11. SCH 12. SAM 13-19 etc etc 20. DRK *Waits for the arguments to continue* The Kungfu approves
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-09 18:42:16
Formless strikes isn't even useful in merits >.>, yet alone 90% of the time. Only good to have for those rare situations where it may be needed. Not sure what you <3 about it so much. It is handy to have, but not even even in the same league as game breaking, hell, not even the same sport.
 Lakshmi.Miaumio
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 17
By Lakshmi.Miaumio 2009-10-09 18:43:48
A KC Rng/Sam with proper gear is hard to beat at merit camps.
Would be interesting to compare dmg/hr parses, anyone got some relic numbers?
 Gilgamesh.Tousou
Serveur: Gilgamesh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1234
By Gilgamesh.Tousou 2009-10-09 18:45:30
Vegetto said: Formless strikes isn't even useful in merits >.>, yet alone 90% of the time. Only good to have for those rare situations where it may be needed. Not sure what you <3 about it so much. It is handy to have, but not even even in the same league as game breaking, hell, not even the same sport. Wait... I have to love things that have use, or are used often? Well hell, I must be missing a memo or something. Formless Strikes can break through Invincible, therefore I <3 it. I love the Elemental Wheel on Ninja, too.
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-09 18:46:27
why would you sub sam w/ a KC?
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-09 18:47:25
Tousou said: Vegetto said: Formless strikes isn't even useful in merits >.>, yet alone 90% of the time. Only good to have for those rare situations where it may be needed. Not sure what you <3 about it so much. It is handy to have, but not even even in the same league as game breaking, hell, not even the same sport. Wait... I have to love things that have use, or are used often? Well hell, I must be missing a memo or something. Formless Strikes can break through Invincible, therefore I <3 it. I love the Elemental Wheel on Ninja, too. Again, I don't see the point. It's only useful less than 5% of a mnk's playtime, really.
Lakshmi.Miaumio
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 17
By Lakshmi.Miaumio 2009-10-09 18:47:53
for 8hit build and /war nerfs KC cause of DA
Gilgamesh.Tousou
Serveur: Gilgamesh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1234
By Gilgamesh.Tousou 2009-10-09 18:50:41
Vegetto said: Again, I don't see the point. It's only useful less than 5% of a mnk's playtime, really. Practicality vs. Simple Enjoyment. It's really just a difference on where our opinions are based
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-09 18:51:02
Miaumio said: for 8hit build and /war nerfs KC cause of DA Even if that were the case, which it isn't there's a thread on BG showing the math in favor of /war because of how strong berserk is, /drg would kill /sam w/ the extra 5% haste and the fact that KC stacks w/ jumps.
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Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-09 18:52:17
Tousou said: Vegetto said: Again, I don't see the point. It's only useful less than 5% of a mnk's playtime, really. Practicality vs. Simple Enjoyment. It's really just a difference on where our opinions are based It has nothing to do w/ simple enjoyment, you listed mnk as number 1 DD and used that as one of the reasons. I was saying I don't see how that makes mnk the number 1 dd, not how it helps your enjoyment of the game. We're ranking damage, not enjoyment.
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Gilgamesh.Mairah
Serveur: Gilgamesh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 472
By Gilgamesh.Mairah 2009-10-09 18:54:23
Vegetto said: Tousou said: Vegetto said: Again, I don't see the point. It's only useful less than 5% of a mnk's playtime, really. Practicality vs. Simple Enjoyment. It's really just a difference on where our opinions are based It has nothing to do w/ simple enjoyment, you listed mnk as number 1 DD and used that as one of the reasons. I was saying I don't see how that makes mnk the number 1 dd, not how it helps your enjoyment of the game. We're ranking damage, not enjoyment. Just because its rarely used doesn't mean it isn't any good. If it helps damage, who cares if you rarely use it? As for me... Everything > Drk. That is all...
Gilgamesh.Tousou
Serveur: Gilgamesh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1234
By Gilgamesh.Tousou 2009-10-09 18:55:18
Vegetto said: It has nothing to do w/ simple enjoyment, you listed mnk as number 1 DD and used that as one of the reasons. I was saying I don't see how that makes mnk the number 1 dd, not how it helps your enjoyment of the game. We're ranking damage, not enjoyment. "People's opinions" My opinion is that MNK is the best, I gave a reason (Albeit simplistic). If you noticed, I also ranked DRK below everything else, and I'm sure "numbers" would prove otherwise or people would pull the "situational" card. I didn't come here to argue "Numbers" and this this or that... My opinion is my opinion, period ;p
Lakshmi.Miaumio
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 17
By Lakshmi.Miaumio 2009-10-09 18:55:24
link pls done the maths myself, and its wrong /drg is never faster than /sam even if u add the shield which adds one haste more.
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10387
By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-09 18:57:01
Dasva said: Longer ticks. Also figure out the dmg on poison2 and bio3. Figure out how much longer they last. Add in refresh convert... lets not even get into survivability Even in ideal situations, with max gear for the certain spells, you get: Bio III=9/tic Poison II=10/tic Burn/choke/shock=4/tic each, for a total of 12. That means 31 damage per tic, max, on RDM. An average (By average I mean my average) Luminohelix hits 264. 264 damage every 9 seconds is 88 damage every 3 seconds. And that's not including the 30 extra damage per tic that RDM can get anyway. (Bio II instead of Bio III for 1 less damage per tic)
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-09 18:57:30
Miaumio said: link pls done the maths myself, and its wrong /drg is never faster than /sam even if u add the shield which adds one haste more. How is /drg not faster? and it'll take a while to find the link as its pretty old and bg's what's better thread gets pretty large.
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Ramuh.Dasva
Serveur: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 40469
By Ramuh.Dasva 2009-10-09 19:00:38
Enternius said: Dasva said: Longer ticks. Also figure out the dmg on poison2 and bio3. Figure out how much longer they last. Add in refresh convert... lets not even get into survivability Even in ideal situations, with max gear for the certain spells, you get: Bio III=9/tic Poison II=10/tic Burn/choke/shock=4/tic each, for a total of 12. That means 31 damage per tic, max, on RDM. An average (By average I mean my average) Luminohelix hits 264. 264 damage every 9 seconds is 88 damage every 3 seconds. And that's not including the 30 extra damage per tic that RDM can get anyway. (Bio II instead of Bio III for 1 less damage per tic) And...? What on mobs that resist and such. I find it hard to believe you'll that much on hard targets. And either way theres initial dmg. mp cost. Yes you can dot faster. But really a super fast dot like helixes is more like just a slow nuke. And I war referring to your outdoting lasting forever thing.
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10387
By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-09 19:21:53
The only times I use Helixes are on NMs.
For instance, Sky NMs (Zipacna in particular) and the LV85 Past Stronghold NMs. My highest is 320 Ionohelix on the Quadav PLD NM that drops Terror Shield.
And I never have to heal on SCH. Idk if that constitutes lasting forever, but Sublimation alone outdoes Refresh, then stacking the base -10% MP cost for all spells, a JA to reduce MP cost by 50% every minute, and a lot higher base MP, I wouldn't be surprised if SCH and RDM are about equal on MP lasting.
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 27
By Fairy.Seraphita 2009-10-09 19:28:15
I believe your math is quite flawed. #1 Rapid shot: "Occasionally reduces ranged attack delay." This is NOT a static ability that is present on all ranged attacks, and so shouldn't be included. #2 A fully merited RNG gains 10% ranged delay reduction ( which you are not ) from Snapshot and also 5% possible from the M.Warders. Your AH info puts you @ 7% ... where did you pull 20% from ?
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Lakshmi.Miaumio
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 17
By Lakshmi.Miaumio 2009-10-09 19:29:39
Vegetto said:
How is /drg not faster? and it'll take a while to find the link as its pretty old and bg's what's better thread gets pretty large.
if u got a 8hit set on rng/sam u can do 5.7 WS/min as /drg at haste cap and 10 hit set u do 5 WS/min now to the bonuses (lazy version but ok for this compare): /sam 60tp all 3mins -> 20tp/min -> 5.9 WS/min /drg 115tp all 3mins -> 38tp/min -> 5.4 WS/min 5.9 > 5.4 -> /sam wins
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-09 19:33:07
I'm not following you here. Care to share some math with that?
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Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10387
By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-09 19:34:34
1)Yes, it's not a static decrease in delay but it does have a static proc rate. Over time, a 25% chance of activating is a 25% lower delay.
2)I haven't updated my merits in forever. (Actually I did update them but they're not showing) I do have capped Snapshot, Mirke Wardecors, and am getting Zha'Go's Barbut in the near future. That's 20%.
Actually I read somewhere that both Zha'Go's Barbut and Mirke augment add a -10% delay effect, because each merit into Snapshot is 2%, so Snapshot+5 would be 10%. It's not confirmed or anything but I'm too lazy to test it.
 Pandemonium.Ironguy
Serveur: Pandemonium
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2600
By Pandemonium.Ironguy 2009-10-09 19:38:53
ranger is bad and you should feel bad.
Lakshmi.Miaumio
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 17
By Lakshmi.Miaumio 2009-10-09 19:50:51
Vegetto said: I'm not following you here. Care to share some math with that? kk i will later cause its 2:30am and its not that easy to write down fast
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-09 19:52:52
At least tell me how much haste in gear u have w/ 1 set than w/ the other.
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Serveur: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24692
By Ifrit.Kungfuhustle 2009-10-09 19:57:48
Ironguy said: ranger is bad and you should feel bad. says the guy who whined like a *** when he found out his e-girlfriend isn't a virgin. Yup, she went black too(derail!) Ok, MNK is THE damage dealer, not because of Formless Strikes, but for the fact that Martial Arts increase the DoT for MNK. On top of adding great gear to the mix, the damage increases ten-fold.
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10387
By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-09 19:59:18
Well from an outside standpoint, I know RNG can get 23% without /DRG stuff, but that requires Dusk+1 so eh.
If you did have the Dusk+1 and V Belt, /DRG would be sort of a waste.
Serveur: Pandemonium
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4261
By Pandemonium.Eternaltriumph 2009-10-09 20:02:16
Kungfuhustle said: Ironguy said: ranger is bad and you should feel bad. says the guy who whined like a *** when he found out his e-girlfriend isn't a virgin. Yup, she went black too(derail!) However you found this out. I lol'd. And no, she didn't go black. I would know. xD
Serveur: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24692
By Ifrit.Kungfuhustle 2009-10-09 20:03:12
Eternaltriumph said: Kungfuhustle said: Ironguy said: ranger is bad and you should feel bad. says the guy who whined like a *** when he found out his e-girlfriend isn't a virgin. Yup, she went black too(derail!) However you found this out. I lol'd. And no, she didn't go black. I would know. xD she went Jew O.o?
Serveur: Fairy
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3615
By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-09 20:04:54
Enternius said: Well from an outside standpoint, I know RNG can get 23% without /DRG stuff, but that requires Dusk+1 so eh.
If you did have the Dusk+1 and V Belt, /DRG would be sort of a waste. at 23% haste, I'd still go /war over /sam. DA only procs 10%, zerk is a HUGE dmg increase
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10387
By Siren.Enternius 2009-10-09 20:06:49
Oh, no I'm definitely not arguing against /WAR. I'm just saying the advantage would be skewed away from DRG in that situation.
I honestly don't do anything other than /WAR when I'm on RNG. Berserk increases WS damage by almost 800 on Colibri.
Curious to see how people would rank the different damage dealing jobs according to best damage output. No restrictions on gear; looking for the very best.
I know right now everyone is all "sam sam sam" but I think a pimped out WAR trumps it. Also BLM is up there somewhere.
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