July 2018 Version Update

My issue was about the way you worded it to begin with. Welcome to the argument.

Claiming that changing game mechanics is the "same thing" as content variety just doesn't make sense. It's literally what we were arguing in the first place.

In fact, I wouldn't even say that's semantics, I would say that's you trying to move the goalposts.

Whether YOUR defination of content variety and mechanic is the same as mine is something I completely dont care.

My argument is the same from the very get go: blu isnt useless because zerg fights like woc isnt all the content that we do. some people only do or care about zergs, so they aren't happy that blu isnt beating war drk sam. But thats not legit. If you dont get to use blu often enough, the right solution is to ask se create more none zerg content or mechanics for jobs like blu, not upping blus dmg.

I have no idea why you ended up arguing for something completely irrelevant. Content variety, game mechanic, whatever you want to name it is not the issue, nor I care. The point is to have certain mechanics that favors certain job so they can be used, not semantics.


Nope.

As far as I'm aware, a single COR can already achieve Dia IV via Dia II + 2x Light Shot.

In any case, I'm all for including RDM in groups because it's my second main job and I love it to death, but the way fights are designed nowadays, they are simply unfavourable for RDM due to tediously high MEVA on mobs (see Wave 3 Dyna-Div, VD Ambu or high-end Geas Fete). SE rarely allows the most useful Enfeebles to land without Immunobreaks, usually only allowing a select few Enfeebles to land even in HQ M.Acc gear (usually Distract III, but not Addle II/Slow II/Silence/Blind/Paralyze II when they matter).

I know this is basically just a critique of SE's faulty game design rather than something relevant to our discussion, but it's really hard to justify RDM in a lot of groups nowadays because everything they bring to the table can be compensated for via other means. RDM could definitely use an Enfeebling spell that actively weakens TP moves similary to how Scherzo works.

This isn't true anymore, many if not all of those land in high end fights. I was RDM for nearly all of the T4 HELM's in Escha and outside of typical elemental alignments had no issues landing enfeebles as a general rule, even Silence though you frequently got one or two of those per fight before it become nearly immune and why on earth would you intentionally make the fight harder by making them do more TP moves.\


That's not what Scherzo / EA / Migawari do...

Nope. I was always told you light shot twice if it's Dia 2 to upgrade to 4, but if you got a RDM for dia 3 you only need one light shot.

Everything sucks for rdm lol. They've had every single thing that made RDM useful stolen from them.

And the few things that only they can do, mostly irrelevant.

I have no idea why everyone keep bashing rdm tbh. Cor is my main, but the amount of time I play rdm in groups v.s cor is roughly at the ratio of rdm 5 cor 1. And my rdm is extremely mediocre.

There are countless ambuscade that I just had to play it if I ever want a Fast and smooth run, something I simply cant do on cor. I just let other people play cor since its not a hard job to play.

Is it absolutely necessary like brd or geo? Of course not. But so does most other jobs in game.

In vd I usually replace whm with rdm, but keep geo brd cor. Dia3 is still useful in ambu with adds, since light shot has downtime its not possible to dia4 all adds if they die really fast. Inundation and extra attack song from haste 2 is also dmg increase.

Haven't bring rdm to wave 3 yet(went back to cor for that), so I can't comment. But before wave 3 update I bring rdm to farming runs and I dont see why it isnt justified a slot.

It's "fine" to use, just doesn't offer anything unique. Innundation doesn't work when your whole party is lolresoeverything.

Innundation also doesn't work with 1 dd multistepping.

If the RDM is gonna melee, then it's alright with me on par with your shitavg blus. But as a healer/debuffer, it's got no place.

I haven't used rdm on wave 3 yet, but it's very useful for the wave 2 bosses. Distract isn't really a big deal unless people start dying and lack madrigal(s), but it can reliably dispel (bards often have trouble when not under nitro), land frazzle to help the bards dispel, slow and paralyze to help DDs that take hate (or even for the tank when Halphas uses Flailing Blow), and silence the Yagudo to prevent Dread Spikes.

It's pretty subpar elsewhere though, where stuff is either weak enough that enfeebles are little use, hard enough and has hp scaling (and you don't want to add more mob hp just to make stuff a bit smoother), or only has 6 player slots.

How uncanny~

None of that matters. That's the problem. Who gives a ***if a mob is slowII vs slow (or slowed at all tbh). Or paraII vs para (or paralyzed at all tbh). Can cap snap with Flurry, don't need II. lolblindII. Refresh is usually good enough who cares about refresh II and III. Temper is self cast that's why i don't mind if they come as a melee. Honor march negates haste2. Dia already covered. Difference between distract and distract II are negligable (torpor). Frazzle and Frazzle II negligable (langour). Scholars stun better than rdms. Addle I vs II negligable.

Yes, RDM has T2 debuffs. Para and slow are very, very moderate increases at best. A well-equipped WHM or GEO can easily land the T1s on all omen bosses, including Ou.

GEO has 88 more dark magic skill than RDM, and access to better gear for it. So, no.

Ranged DPS cap delay without any flurry. Flurry 1 adds a modest amount of rapid shot(which is next to worthless, as my ranged tests illustrated). Flurry 2 adds next to nothing, again.

BRD gives an obscene amount of accuracy, nobody should be using RDM on a melee zerg HELM.

Every other mage has the same cooldowns if equipped properly. SCH has rapture and accession, whm has real tier cures. No.

This is an anecdote, and questionable to begin with. Given RDM can't use high tier curaga and is limited to single target, a good heal bot on WHM is almost certainly better.. since their biggest downfall is usually poor curaga use. Hardly worth addressing, though.

Anything else?

Unless something has changed (very possible cause I haven't been paying much attention), I don't think you can self cap flurry while also using Amini Caban +1?

Traits 10%
Relic legs +3 15% AF legs +3 15%
cape 10%
osh+1 or taeon gloves 10%
taeon head 10%
impulse belt 3%
meg feet+2 or taeon feet 10%
= 68%
scout's gorget makes 70, if you don't trust impulse belt tests you can +1 or +2 it

cor can't use rng relic legs or the gorget, but they also don't have caban so they can just use oshosi

(It's not ideal, and obviously you get significant rapid shot gains out of flurry1, but pretending flurry2 makes any sort of meaningful impact is laughable)

Good DD don't have issues with acc. I TP burned all of these NMs long before you did, and posted the initial strategies for some of them(including Albumen).

Sure, stunning hate resets on Albumen will help considerably. However, RDM can't do anything GEO can't for that use, and takes up an additional party slot without adding damage.

The job isn't worthless in all situations, but trying to showcase it as amazing for alliance content is the wrong way to argue it's worth. RDM shines in smaller groups where it can fulfill multiple roles effectively. Once you have the numbers to bring proper buffers, it becomes nigh-worthless.

wait, where'd you get 15 from relic legs?

derp, meant AF: https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Orion_Braccae_%2B3

RDM's actually pretty bad *** now, just not required for most content. All it does is make stuff easier, if a group can't kill something then adding a RDM isn't going change that, but it's certainly not worthless. I will agree that 99% of RDM's out there are complete ***, they refuse to learn mechanics, formulas and relationships and that job practically requires that knowledge.

Kind of a delayed response but here goes.


I never stated that they got equal treatment, just that NIN typically has had bad JSE and that the overwhelming majority of good NIN gear comes from gear meant for other jobs. BLU has some similarities because it's a hybrid job, but their JSE is usually better. Reforged relic is a great example of this. Most DD/hybrid job got two WSD +10% pieces but NIN got one of theirs on a piece that overlaps an Ambuscade WS piece. I think anybody that plays NIN felt the relic 10% WSD piece should have been on the hands. All of the other JSE pieces are pretty worthless (dual wield, ninjutsu damage, etc.) People did complain about this (and exclusion from Sherida Earring), you probably don't remember because ninjas complaining about lack of good gear usually doesn't lead to arguments from people who don't even play the job telling them that it's OP.


Despite this, I don't feel that it place BLU ahead of other jobs like THF or DNC in regards to DPS. You're also in denial if you don't recognize the Omen BLU soft nerf. It's many pieces behind all other hybrid jobs and they didn't get any useful melee accessories.


Better DPS with similar amounts of survivibility.


Nobody's exaggerating here. You're insistent on denying anything that might suggest that BLU was not as OP as you think. Please stop with your partisan *** and try actually playing classes outside of your narrow spectrum.

I agree that Flurry II is pretty minute. Suppose it might be time to redo my preshot sets.

LS mate of mine built a separate preshot set loaded with RS / ect. with the assumption he would be getting Flurry II. Was pretty cool seeing the dude fire like a machine gun, but again it's kinda situational.

RDM has access to 44% (recently raised even higher) +enfeebling potency, that's pretty bonkers on spells like Distract III / Frazzle III / Addle II / Paralyze II / Slow II. Distract III / Frazzle III are already stronger then their GEO counterparts, Addle II makes the target spend more time casting and thus less time doing TP moves, Paralyze / Slow just slows down their attack rounds which is useful on NMs with en-effect type attacks. Haste II on tanks / healers is pretty amazing since those guys rarely get BRD support, Refresh III is broken levels of MP return but only useful in long fights anyway. Again RDM won't enable a group to suddenly beat content, yet it's a very useful job to have around.

The real problem that people won't say is that RDM doesn't fit in with a SMN burn and thus not useful to them.

I admit that blu got less gears than most jobs from omen, but I already directly responded to Buukki, its one content out of many.

Post omen blu didn't get much... so does most other jobs. it still got 1 10 wsd gear from dyna, like everyone else. it got ***DD gears this update.... so does everyone else except brd.

And yet BLU complained the hardest. I just dont get it.

Like others point out, gears always work that way. Certain job got more from one content then less from another. Blu just happened to get less from omen, that's it. And yet people pop on the forum pointing fingers and acting as if a few people asked for blu nerf 3 year ago causing the job got nerf hammer to oblivion and never see any use in game.

This is exaggerating, and thats my issue with it.


I feel the way setup works in 2015 to 2016 certainly put blu at at favorable spot in melee pt. I feel the issues are mostly solved post brd buff. I didnt make one single argument about blus advantage post brd buffs.

Exactly where do you see me pop on the forum claiming blu is OP and deserve a nerf post 2017?

My previous post was directing towards people exaggerating blus situations, not about the job being op.

I pt with blu all the time and besides a few zerg fights like woc Ive never feel "Oh ***our performance is horrible I better kick blu and replace it with another job". The job is still useful. And yet people act as if every blu lose their job and begging on street because of nerf.


Proof? Result matters. And dont forget you are comparing a job with just Loldefender v.s a job with mg and cocoon for surviability. Atm its emotional argument and personal preference based on your pt members at best.

Like I said, blu and nin setup can clear that bc in 36 min with consistent win rate. If war and another dd can clear drastically faster, something like 25 min with higher win rate, then I will admit war is a drastically better choice, to the point that you better kick blu for a war.

Otherwise, I feel its just personal preference, which probably heavily based on having extremely top tier backline jobs.

I use war quite a lot in vd ambu as well, but only with specific people on on tank healer support and war. There are plenty of time blu ended up my preferred dd because we go with different people. No way Im going to make bold claims that war is by all end all best choice for everything. Like people on this forum claiming it.

In Dyna or Ambu you'll rarely have GEO support with Languor, so you have to be able to land stuff yourself. And I'm getting a lot of resists on bosses with AF+3, Regal earring/gem, Erra pendant, well-augmented Grio/Chironic, Ambu cape, 2xStikini. Short of Murgleis and HQ rings there's not much else I can do if even Frazzle II/III have trouble landing. And that's giving up Enfeebling potency just to be able to land stuff that barely even makes a difference. Silence/Distract III are really the only things that potentially matter nowadays.

And hell, as an example you can't even Silence the Yagudo BLM in Ambu this month with full MACC and Saboteur to stop it from AoEing unless you get lucky (Paralyze II/Addle II is usually the best you can do). What's the point of bringing RDM over a WHM if you have to heal the damage rather than being able to prevent it with a quick enfeeble?


Don't be so deliberately obtuse. I obviously meant in the sense that attacks would deal reduced damage if they hit somebody for 75% or more of their total HP, but I also mused that perhaps for RDM it ought to be restricted to TP moves so it wouldn't necessarily affect mob 1hrs or it would trivialize Mijin Gakure too much.