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String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*
 Asura.Nalfey
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 97
By Asura.Nalfey 2021-02-28 09:44:20
Quetzalcoatl.Khajit said: »On youtube, NextGames showcased how well Mpaca set worked as a tanking set with ninja. The stats on the gear that you can see, specifically malignance vs Mpaca, don't equal his results that he was getting in evasion and ability to hold 30 plus Apex mobs with little to no effort in full Mpaca gear.
He swapped to full malignance gear and promptly died in .2 seconds. Could there be a damage dealing side to Mpaca gear as well that is not reflected in the stats we can see? Possible hidden level in ilevel gear?
Not even sure that is a thing but by the stats, he should not have got the results that he got. Malignance should have been a better eva set. He swapped to a normal TP set(Kenda) and died in .2 seconds.
At the very end of the video he also swaps to full malignance on the 30+ apex mobs and dies instantly as well
He dies in 6 sec. It's neither instantly or 0.2 sec
Well dying in 6s or holding 30+ mobs without a sweat is a huge difference, and when I compare the stats between the two sets I do not understand why there is so much of a difference.
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1360
By Odin.Creaucent 2021-02-28 09:56:25
Quetzalcoatl.Khajit said: »On youtube, NextGames showcased how well Mpaca set worked as a tanking set with ninja. The stats on the gear that you can see, specifically malignance vs Mpaca, don't equal his results that he was getting in evasion and ability to hold 30 plus Apex mobs with little to no effort in full Mpaca gear.
He swapped to full malignance gear and promptly died in .2 seconds. Could there be a damage dealing side to Mpaca gear as well that is not reflected in the stats we can see? Possible hidden level in ilevel gear?
Not even sure that is a thing but by the stats, he should not have got the results that he got. Malignance should have been a better eva set. He swapped to a normal TP set(Kenda) and died in .2 seconds.
At the very end of the video he also swaps to full malignance on the 30+ apex mobs and dies instantly as well
He dies in 6 sec. It's neither instantly or 0.2 sec
Well dying in 6s or holding 30+ mobs without a sweat is a huge difference, and when I compare the stats between the two sets I do not understand why there is so much of a difference.
Seriously?
Mpaca gains over Malignance.
Def: 131
Vit: 57
HP: 79
PDT: 9%
So basically its adding another another piece of Malignance with just those stats alone. EVA is the same and you also get counter+10 on the body which Malignance doesnt have.
Edit if you watch the video there is a cut between changing DT sets and him dying where he also loses Yoran-Oran so no more cure skin. Upon further inspection Phalanx wore off and this is where he started getting a lot more damage.
Asura.Nalfey
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 97
By Asura.Nalfey 2021-02-28 10:08:10
yeah I agree and actually looking at the video again and focusing on his equipviewer, he doesn't just swap Mpaca/Malignance he also drops D.Ring/Odnowa+1/Gelatinous+1/Bathy+1.
By SimonSes 2021-02-28 10:11:18
Seriously?
Mpaca gains over Malignance.
Def: 131
Vit: 57
HP: 79
PDT: 9%
So basically its adding another another piece of Malignance with just those stats alone. EVA is the same and you also get counter+10 on the body which Malignance doesnt have.
It has the same evasion per piece, but has much lower AGI, so the total evasion should be much lower. PDT is irrelevant, since he uses accessories to cap pdt with both sets. HP is irrelevant too i. This case. It about damage mitigation on massive amount on rrlatively low damage hits, not one shooting. But and def is relevant here, but doesn't really explain better evasion with Mpaca.
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1360
By Odin.Creaucent 2021-02-28 10:21:18
Seriously?
Mpaca gains over Malignance.
Def: 131
Vit: 57
HP: 79
PDT: 9%
So basically its adding another another piece of Malignance with just those stats alone. EVA is the same and you also get counter+10 on the body which Malignance doesnt have.
It has the same evasion per piece, but has much lower AGI, so the total evasion should be much lower. PDT is irrelevant, since he uses accessories to cap pdt with both sets. HP is irrelevant too i. This case. It about damage mitigation on massive amount on rrlatively low damage hits, not one shooting. But and def is relevant here, but doesn't really explain better evasion with Mpaca.
Did you watch his equipviewer? I hardly say its a fair comparison when in Mpaca hes got capped PDT, actually hes at 65% and in his Malignance set he has 39% PDT. Go watch the video again.
Also as regards to evasion he has an evasion accessory on which he doesnt have in his other set so swapping to Maglinance lowers his evasion by 8 which isnt much but his defense also drops by 229.
By Aerix 2021-03-03 13:31:28
Yeah, as pointed out that Mpaca vs. Malignance comparison in his video is kinda pointless since he drops to 39% PDT and loses Yoran-Oran, so obviously he'd die almost immediately from that compared to before.
That said, the additional HP, DEF, VIT, Counter and Killer from Mpaca are undeniable benefits when getting smacked by mobs, so I tweaked the Kiting and PDT TP sets to include as much of it as possible to use when you have direct hate. Also added a more general DT TP set using Malignance if you just want to stay as safe as possible from physical, magical and debuffs without losing too much damage. Also tweaked and added some other sets.
"Hybrid" sets in the classic sense are omitted because our standard fastest TP sets already include 30%ish PDT or DT at this point.
---
Updated the gear node with augment recommendations. Tried to reuse as many of the Ambu capes as possible to go easy on inventory space.
Also added a few new sets, such as a master Enfeebling Magic set for PUP/SCH and a pure Pet: MACC one. Tweaked and improved some others, as well.
Edit: Also added some more alternative Pet sets that don't require the Thurandaut Ring +1.
At this point I can't think of anything else the gear node may be missing, so if anybody has any suggestions for useful sets, please let me know and I'll work something out.
By Aerix 2021-03-07 13:52:14
WTF in Vana'diel Is A Puppetmaster
If anybody is interested, I was recently a guest on the WTF in Vana'diel podcast to do an episode about PUP. We talked a lot about the basics of the job, what it can do and shared a couple of experiences with using it in endgame (most of which I previously posted here in the thread).
It was my first time doing something like this and it was pretty fun, so please give it a listen! The podcast overall is also very cool, so I highly recommend checking out the other episodes too.
Regarding a few things I said in the PUP episode:
When asked what my favorite weapon would be if Kenkonken wasn't an option, I answered Karambit in terms of general DD because the Crit STP mechanic is fun to mess with using Heyoka/Mpaca and it's just a very solid weapon you can get without too much effort. Xiucoatl C is obviously still the best for pet burning!
Near the end we ran out of time before I could give a clear answer with regard to gearing for a BLMaton: gear for maximum damage as food already provides excellent Pet: MACC. If you need extra MACC you can simply switch Loudspeakers to Tranquilizers, which provide a lot of value in the same slot and likely more than enough MACC for any content.
The reason we don't define PUP as a modern tank, but rather as a job that can hold monsters (very well) is because the requirements for a tank in modern FFXI are different than they were in classic FFXI. If this were the pre-ilevel era still, then PUP would be the most godly tank of them all because of its self-sufficiency. But these days, tanks are required to be able to do two additional things next to being able to just keep a mob's attention without dying: 1) being able to generate AoE enmity to grab adds 2) being able to protect the rest of the party such as with Rampart/Majesty or One For All/Valiance against extremely dangerous moves that could kill weaker jobs (though tbf, it has become less of an issue lately due to gear creep).
So with that said, PUP still does excellently at what it can do and it doesn't lose Enmity as easily as people think (which was never even a point of discussion in the podcast), it just doesn't fit a modern definition. What PUP definitely is, however, is a jack-of-all-trades and is highly useful for many setups even if we don't label it as a "tank".
 Asura.Sechs
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10090
By Asura.Sechs 2021-03-08 02:57:10
Not sure if this has been discussed, but aren't the new Sakpata H2H the BiS for Automaton nuking now?
They have Macc+50 (like a couple other options, namely Xiucoatl) but they also have "All stats +20", which means INT+20.
This combination together should prove to be more useful than Tinhaspas' Mab+15 or that Gnafron's Adargas (HP/MP+ and Skill+20)
By Aerix 2021-03-08 05:05:57
Not sure if this has been discussed, but aren't the new Sakpata H2H the BiS for Automaton nuking now?
They have Macc+50 (like a couple other options, namely Xiucoatl) but they also have "All stats +20", which means INT+20.
This combination together should prove to be more useful than Tinhaspas' Mab+15 or that Gnafron's Adargas (HP/MP+ and Skill+20)
It hasn't been discussed, but I already added them to the nuking set guide last week (it came up during the podcast recording) because they are indeed our best option in terms of value for the slot.
[+]
By kairyu 2021-03-08 07:46:58
Not sure if this has been discussed, but aren't the new Sakpata H2H the BiS for Automaton nuking now?
They have Macc+50 (like a couple other options, namely Xiucoatl) but they also have "All stats +20", which means INT+20.
This combination together should prove to be more useful than Tinhaspas' Mab+15 or that Gnafron's Adargas (HP/MP+ and Skill+20)
It hasn't been discussed, but I already added them to the nuking set guide last week (it came up during the podcast recording) because they are indeed our best option in terms of value for the slot.
Best value for the slot or best overall? I mean it beats Xiucoatl in macc due to the int, but for damage does this beat 15mab? I know it’s not necessarily a black and white answer, and it may even only be a marginal difference, but let’s say if it was the same target with the MAB set from the guide with both weapons. What would we be looking at here?
Asura.Sechs
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10090
By Asura.Sechs 2021-03-08 11:08:33
in the majority of scenarios 15 mab should beat 20 int, but given the innate lack of macc of pet, the +50 macc stat is not really something you can easily disregard on PUP.
There are old discussions that go in detail about the low level of macc of automatons.
If anything it gives you a lot more freedom to choose in the other slots.
Unless you wanna talk about Automaton damage on level 50 monsters, but who cares about that, I wonder?
By kairyu 2021-03-08 11:19:10
in the majority of scenarios 15 mab should beat 20 int, but given the innate lack of macc of pet, the +50 macc stat is not really something you can easily disregard on PUP.
There are old discussions that go in detail about the low level of macc of automatons.
If anything it gives you a lot more freedom to choose in the other slots.
Unless you wanna talk about Automaton damage on level 50 monsters, but who cares about that, I wonder?
At this stage in the game, I'm quite aware on what content I can get away with using Tinhaspa, and what content the additional m.acc in that slot is needed. In any case where resists are beyond reasonable control the new H2H will pull ahead (Which for sure would be more evident in any content without Puppet's Roll). I was more curious about from just a damage perspective, which you speculated Tinhaspa would probably win.
By Aerix 2021-03-08 13:43:32
If we're actually discussing a MAB weapon vs. Sakpata's Fists, then Ohrmazd is technically superior to Tinhaspa as you can augment it with up to Pet: MAB+25. Although with the caveat that I found the augmentation process extremely tedious and it took a ton of stones for the MAB to even show up, much less cap it. In any case, MAB+25 handily beats INT+20 for damage in most circumstances, but I'd probably recommend going with Sakpata's Fists for most CLs above 130 just to avoid random resists.
That said, while Rolanberry Daifuku or Marine Stewpot are also the highest-value foods in terms of pet nuking stats, if you're already running Sakpata's Fists and resist rates are not a big concern, you could also just eat Grape Daifuku for Pet: MAB+14 instead, to make up for the lack of Ohrmazd or Tinhaspa.
MAB+14 INT+20 MACC+50 is a pretty solid middle ground, while Grape Daifuku also buffs the master's Attack decently if you're the one making skillchains for your pet.
[+]
By Aerix 2021-03-09 16:34:11
So, the new gear that was teased has some crazy potential with regard to Path D, especially if it's straight up Pet: Damage+5% (boosted white damage and nukes) and not just Special/WSD like before. Automatons excel at white damage more than any other pet, so this could empower us more than anyone. The pure Sharpshot will also get to pull some nice numbers regardless.
Only issue I'm seeing is that it kinda conflicts with Mpaca and Empy, particularly if we get +3 in the future. Empy head and Mpaca hands will surely still be best for WS, but Mpaca feet and Empy legs may have been replaced. There's also the issue of Pet: Haste, as we still only have Heyoka as viable option for that. The whole thing is a bit of a headache lol.
In any case, since the augmenting process is so restrictive, I'll have to add separate sets using the new gear in the guide once they've been added to FFXIAH's database.
 Asura.Eiryl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Eiryl 2021-03-09 16:40:12
Another valuable point, this set just like mpaca lacks pet haste. Totally always manage to overlook that lol.
Wanted to see how you weighed the options considering the stakes.
By SimonSes 2021-03-09 16:42:31
Only issue I'm seeing is that it kinda conflicts with Mpaca and Empy, particularly if we get +3 in the future. Empy head and Mpaca hands will surely still be best for WS, but Mpaca feet and Empy legs may have been replaced. There's also the issue of Pet: Haste when purely pet burning, as we still only have Heyoka as viable option for that. The whole thing is a bit of a headache lol.
You are assuming it will be same path D on each piece, which I kinda doubt. We will see in like 12hours I guess :)
By Aerix 2021-03-09 17:00:05
Only issue I'm seeing is that it kinda conflicts with Mpaca and Empy, particularly if we get +3 in the future. Empy head and Mpaca hands will surely still be best for WS, but Mpaca feet and Empy legs may have been replaced. There's also the issue of Pet: Haste when purely pet burning, as we still only have Heyoka as viable option for that. The whole thing is a bit of a headache lol.
You are assuming it will be same path D on each piece, which I kinda doubt. We will see in like 12hours I guess :)
That's true, but I don't think SE will mix it up since it's an All Jobs set.
Also of note, if it's Damage+5% to everything it will also boost Automaton nukes. It could get pretty insane.
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 153
By Asura.Bixbite 2021-03-09 17:11:49
Not impressed by those pants with path D. A lot of effort to get them just to augment them if damage +5% is just special damage +5%.
We have Taeon boosting both pet defence and offence. Making them a lot better for endgame Valor most of the time. It allows pup to tank and DD during overdrive. These Goal nms can hit hard through overdrive.
Empyreon already boosts ranged attacks and ranged weaponskill by about 5% for sharpshot. But it is empyreon with about 47 acc upgrade.
There’s also Herc can which can be auged with pet stat +15, haste+4 and acc+30. Since a tp bonus set lacks haste.
I play pet only so I’m getting them. Though farming segments will take me longer with my pet only segment farms not getting as many as super buffed DD party.
By Aerix 2021-03-09 17:36:32
Not impressed by those pants with path D. A lot of effort to get them just to augment them if damage +5% is just special damage +5%.
We have Taeon boosting both pet defence and offence. Making them a lot better for endgame Valor most of the time. It allows pup to tank and DD during overdrive. These Goal nms can hit hard through overdrive.
Empyreon already boosts ranged attacks and ranged weaponskill by about 5% for ranged pet. But it is empyreon with about 47 acc upgrade.
There’s also Herc can which can be auged with pet stat +15, haste+4 and acc+30. Since a tp bonus set lacks haste.
I play pet only so I’m getting them. Though farming segments will take me longer with my pet only segment farms not getting as many as super buffed DD party.
I agree with your assessment in the first two paragraphs. The tedious augmentation process is a real issue for testing and we can't just replace Taeon because the DT-4% is too valuable for a Bruiser setup, making it risky to swap to a WS set for too long if the mob hits hard.
However, I just tested the Karagoz legs +1 on level 0 mobs and it's more of a ~1.5% damage increase on Ranged Attacks. So the new legs will handily beat Empy unless the +3 reforge is even more powerful.
By SimonSes 2021-03-09 17:37:13
Also of note, if it's Damage+5% to everything it will also boost Automaton nukes. It could get pretty insane.
5% cant boost nukes more than 51mab (for legs slot). Its not even close.
By Aerix 2021-03-09 17:38:18
Also of note, if it's Damage+5% to everything it will also boost Automaton nukes. It could get pretty insane.
5% cant boost nukes more than 51mab (for legs slot). Its not even close.
I meant for the Head/Hands slot to replace Herculean if they get the same augment path. It would be damage as well as a lot of MACC.
But honestly, with the massive Pet: MACC+70 it might even be situationally worth replacing Udug and Relic+3 for very resistant mobs.
 Bahamut.Yiazmat
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 129
By Bahamut.Yiazmat 2021-03-09 18:20:06
The probelm is, if you can own one set of this set only and forever, would you augment it for pup or for other dd jobs ? The choice might be hard to make if you play multiples jobs family.
Edit : unless it could make pup a viable party dd for all content now ?
[+]
Asura.Eiryl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Eiryl 2021-03-09 18:24:43
The first part waiting for an answer myself, but the second part, no piece of gear or set of gear is going to shift the meta or public opinion by itself.
Until an auto can be buffed or surpasses a "real" tank in enmity retention it's never going to move the status quo.
(That in no way says it doesn't or can't, simply won't.)
Bahamut.Yiazmat
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 129
By Bahamut.Yiazmat 2021-03-09 18:30:01
I just hope we can pick multiples set of this and make multiples path like with the escha abj sets. Would fill sad to pass on such gear for pup lol
By Aerix 2021-03-09 18:30:51
We'll almost assuredly see a shift in the meta with the All Jobs adjustment patch, at the very least. Not necessarily in a way that would make PUP popular, but it'll mix things up.
We'll probably see that around Fall this year since they're close to finishing up Odyssey now.
Asura.Eiryl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Eiryl 2021-03-09 18:31:08
I just hope we can pick multiples set of this and make multiples path like with the escha abj sets. Would fill sad to pass on such gear for pup lol
It literally has the rare tag, so...
It is possible that they could make 2+ sets though, at least, not entirely out of the question.
They could have Nyame Francha, Nyeme Francha, Nyome Francha etc
By Aerix 2021-03-09 18:37:46
It would be nice if they at least let us change the augment path for a hefty segment cost, something like 20k-50k perhaps.
Forcing us to refarm the RP from scratch if we ever change our minds is just unreasonable.
[+]
Asura.Eiryl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Eiryl 2021-03-09 19:02:28
Unreasonable is one hell of an understatement lol.
You could reasonably start a brand new character, max it out, reup all the gear and get back to starting the RP process in the same amount of time it would take to switch from D20 to A20 (short of ergon access and monberaux)
[+]
Asura.Eiryl
Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
By Asura.Eiryl 2021-03-10 07:45:28
So the pet set, while already "not great" kinda got double screwed. half the pieces didn't even get the 5% but attributes instead.
Nyame Helm
[3]Pet: All Attr.+5
Nyame Mail
[3]Pet: DMG:+5%
Nyame Gauntlets
[3]Pet: All Attr.+5
Nyame Flanchard
[3]Pet: DMG:+5%
Nyame Sollerets
[3]Pet: All Attr.+5
No matter how you shake that out, stat +5, I mean, really, that's insulting. I mean... f.i.v.e. What. Rank 20, 5 Str 5 Dex 5 Agi... couldn't even give 1 per rank.
>> Click Here to view the guide over at BG Wiki <<
Last Update: 26th April 2019
I'd like to give a big shout-out to all the Puppetmasters, old or new, who have been relentlessly sharing their PUP knowledge and findings online in order to help me write this guide.
Cheers!
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