Dev Tracker - Discussion

Often times, these same people want to see other jobs nerfed so that their favorite/preferred job becomes a viable option again.

Case in point, that person (forgot her name) on the Official Forums who demanded that GEO be nerfed so that her RDM could get into groups.

***ninja edit*** Found the thread in question. Name of Shiyo, but is now Kitori on Bahamut server. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/51851-To-the-devs-Why-won-t-you-nerf-Geomancer?highlight=nerf+GEO

A huge part of the problem is DDs both scale off of so many buffs and scale so damn high. There just aren't diminishing returns on your support jobs, it's honestly closer to exponential returns. Even if DDs had party buffs wouldn't you still just take your exponential trio unless the DD pt buffs just outclass the support jobs completely?

What they should have done is simply make buffs works like some debuffs : not cumulative/erasing each other. Having Minuet/Chaos Roll/Indy-Fury erase each other for example.
So people would more often go with 1 support and choose which one based on their specifities. Let's say cor if there's need for some added dps, geo for more magic support, brd for more debuffing (that's a very simplified/not accurate way to see things of course, it's just for the example purpose).

Well, I guess that would not be possible in the current state of the game because it would requires adjusting a lot of things. But that would make more sense imo than the current situation.

5 DD's in a party SC'ing together, sounds great. - Sam

Give redmage W-Magic and W-Weaponskill and W-Attack make it stack with Temper II

Redmage already has W-Magic, you can use it once every 10min and it's called Spontaneity.

Cant remember who said it but letting enfeeb potency and/or sabo work on dia would be a nice addition, might be a bit much though

What they have hinted at doing in the past, and I'm hoping they do, is making Frazzle non-elemental so it's much less likely to be resisted.

It's three things converging,

One is the requirement for capped magic haste (Bard does this via Marches)
Two is the requirement for capped pDiff (Geomancer does this via Fury/Frailty)
Third is the requirement for fast WS delivery (Corsair does this via Samurai / Fighters)

So we're buffing three different angles, four if we throw in accuracy but that's usually rolled into Bard anyway.

March's, Samurai's Roll, Fighters Roll, Fury/Frailty, they all stack independently and end up being multiplied by each other for increased WS frequency.

So you either want RDM to tank or not play the game?

There are, broadly speaking, three roles in most MMO's, frequently called the Holy Trinity.

Tank - Absorbs punishment from bad guys and protects the party members from that punishment.

DPS - Reduces bad guys HP to 0

Support - Helps keep the DPS and Tank alive and functioning.

In FFXI we break Support down into healer and buffers with WHM being the only real healer and the buffers being BRD/GEO/COR (SMN gets a mention in specific situations, thanks Shiva).

So we got several buffing jobs, two or three tanks and a boat load of DPS but only one healer. That is the bottleneck, so much so that all the high end folks run around with a pocket robot WHM cause they tired of looking for WHM's healers.

My suggestion is a re-balance of healing power in the form of buffs to RDM and SCH and a very minor adjustment to one spell from WHM.

WHM - Lower Curaga III to level 49

SCH - Make Light Arts Regen boost work on sub but only at the potency of that sub (49 SCH).

RDM - Make Haste and Haste II accessionable, give access up to Regen IV.

That just "fixed" high end healing, we would have multiple options that could be tailored to the content and party strategy. RDM and SCH could both fill the party healer roll by giving up some of their versatility. WHM gets a boost to Regen's as a bonus.

several people have pointed out accurate things, like Saevel above nailing the bottleneck is there's only 1 true healer for high-end content (I'd argue 1.5 b/c SCH can handle main-healing for some high end content, but it does take a very dedicated SCH and specific content only, but still).

But I always wonder this in today's meta. On one side people complain that "their" job doesn't have a place in today's game. Within the same breath they complain that "leveling is too easy, you can 99 a job in a day". So which is it folks? Or, more accurately, if you can level a job so damn easy but your meh-geared DRK isn't getting invites, why not take 3 days and make a meh-geared WHM and rule your server?

If FFXI limited how many jobs we could level, the need to even out the jobs would be much more important. In a game designed to allow you to level and play every job available, having jobs that are good for different content is perfectly fine.

I'm perfectly ok with some content being absolutely destroyed by SMN setup, yet SMN can suck on something different. Or having BLU be the ideal cleaver but a sub-par DD in perfect buff situations where a heavier DD functions better. And RNGs being the preferred method of DPS on one mob, but a liability for another. Or RDM being a great low-man healer that can still DPS, but fail miserably at main healing alliance content where all you want is a healer.

I only have two problems with this. First, jobs like WAR and RDM should be able to tank minor content better to increase the number of workable tanks (N-D Ambuscade, some Omen situations, lower tier Gaes Fete mobs as examples), and this current meta where some jobs excel at certain content while being worthless for another doesn't apply to CORs or GEOs- they're always wanted/needed (not even BRD gets this treatment, as they aren't needed for a SMN setup and are borderline wanted in a RNG setup-yes, some songs are great for them, but a couple CORs are better if I have to choose).

I'd say to remove the job lock from Solace/Misery.
Lower SCH's stona to 49.
Give Cure V to RDM & SCH.
Lower the level RDM learns regen II, and give it III & IV.
Change sifahir slacks to include RDM & SCH. (maybe more than just those two; but at least those two)

WHM still is the only job with gear that can boots the potency of solace & misery; still the best at removing doom; only job that can cast Arise, Esuna & Sacrifice. + Yagrush makes it king of status removal anyway.
It just wouldn't be the only job with free cures + cureskin anymore, and only subjob that can remove petrify.

Light Arts buff for subjob? sure.

With how bad a lot of WHMs are, imagine how bad it would be with pick up RDM and SCH healers.

and that my friends is why i made my rune fencer playstyle revolve around having 0 whm. i sometimes hate joining pugs because of how bad some whms are.

sit on 60% hp for like 5mins then why you die and ask what's up they make some random BS excuse, i never seen your hp drop, it was instant....

The problem with being a good WHM is people want you to come WHM.

Don't you think that you all just go around in circles again and again on this matter?

Improve RDM so that he replace a support job in a 6-man party, and you will have a)GEO b)BRD c)COR community that will complain about their favorite job being set aside.

Nerf job a), b) or c) so that RDM can find a place in a 6-man party, and they will complain too.

And the same reasonning applies if you modify any DD job in a nerf or an improvment. Improve MNK so that he's great again, WAR/DRK/SAM will complain to not have their room anymore...

Each time you do a modification / improvment on a specific job, this is to the detriment of another. It's like this back and forth since FFXI exists, that's their way to adjust the game balance.

The problem wouldn't come from the fact that the party size is limited to 6 jobs while we have 22 jobs (well 20 + PUP & BST actually)?
Add to this that most of the content - maybe with the exception of Dyna-D - is clearable with a 6-men party, that becomes quite hard to satisfy everyone then.

Re-size the party to 8 or 9 jobs, and add some contents that will require more than 1 fully buffed DD to reduce boss HP from 100 to 0...

I do realize that my request is probably completly unrealistic but I feel that the game has arrived in a point that we will need significant additions to the content (and probably mechanics) to keep players interested in grinding...

By the way, I'd like someone from SE explain me the goal of upgrading our REMA to rank15 when you can already clear everything with a party of {RUN GEO COR BRD WHM DD} or {3xSMN COR GEO RUN} (RMEA or non-RMEA)

Honestly, yes. We have some amazing whms in our group, some people like Ibiku, Rixit, Bratgurl and when he was with us, Xenomorph. People like that you want on whm, they are just too good to take off. Having a good whm gives you a breather and knowing that you're in good hands of someone not distracted is a good thing.

I don't think the main issue is that DD rely too much on support but rather that we are getting to the point where well-geared support can (almost?) outdamage proper DDs. COR is incredibly OP right now and now they are trying to put RDM in the DD picture with new weapons (crocea) and boosts (enspell dmg/acc bonus with composure). DD jobs should smoke support jobs damage wise so that having a single DD in a party would actually hurt the DPS compared to having 2 thus leading to a more balanced party setup (tank+heal+2 support+2DD).

Not saying it's easy to create a balance meta but each job should have it's own strength and weakness so that all are sorta viable depending on the content

Everyone keeps talking about the enhance/healing aspect of rdm and how to shoe it in if SE would give it better curing options, and how detrimental it would be to geo, brd, cor if rdm enhance were boosted.

Why, why can't we focus on rdm enfeeble aspect and make those enfeebles actually proc on high end content.

Blind 1/2 have issues due to a lot of nm's using regular attacks that are AoE

Slow 1/2 doesn't mitigate the amount of tp/regain, so it doesn't really do too much.

Para 1/2 doesn't really proc on high end content, even with all the potency gear and sabo I have seen it do absolutely nothing to dyna boss

Dia 3 is still pitifully weak in comparison for today's content, especially when cor can get a stronger version of rdm's own spell just by stacking dia 2 and light shot x2.

Poison 1/2 does very little in damage for the amount of hp that mobs have now.

Bio 3 probably hasn't been used in years


I have no issue with rdm current state for cures/regen.

I wouldn't mind SE making phalanx special on rdm again, but right now it is overshadowed by both tank jobs.

Enspell 2 is fine with me, I don't really see a need to change enspell anymore after the composure buff.

Wouldn't mind seeing barspells and stoneskin to scale with skill better.


Red Mage was always a weapon using mage, mostly focused on dual/double casting (basically what we would call fast cast) but now almost every job in the game can cap fastcast through gear, SE gave rdm a 10 minute JA for instant cast. (mediocre, normally I save it for the whm to use arise)

The biggest problem with taking a rdm to groups, it can't do anything as good as another job. It can't cap haste like brd, or even a geo/rdm, it can't lower the defense like a geo, cor/rdm, blu. It can't heal like a whm, or even a sch for that matter. It can't tank like a pld or a run. While it can put out some heavy dps numbers, it won't replace a 2hd dd.

Need to stop focusing on how to make rdm fit in those slots and give rdm something unique.

frazzle 3 distract 3?

This would do absolutely nothing for those jobs.

Jesus folks, this isn't 2008, give up on Cure V already, it's a bad spell anyway. WHM's use Cure III, Cure IV and then Curaga II / III with Curaga IV being for OMGWTF moments. RDM's and SCH's already have Cure III, IV and access to -na's from subjob, what they are missing is a viable AoE healing spell. The reason WHM is the only real healer on high end content isn't Cure V, Cure VI (straight up kick any WHM's using this spell), or even Solace (though it helps), it's Curaga II/III. For RDM's and SCH's Curaga II isn't enough by itself as it doesn't help enough to be a response to the kinds of bit AoE attacks boss's do. Curaga III is the perfect answer to when a boss drops a heavy AoE attack, it heals enough to prevent anyone from dieing but doesn't waste MP like the higher tier spells do.

Having main healed a ton of RDM, my ST heals are plenty powerful, it's the inability to respond to heavy AoE attacks. I imagine SCH is in a similar boat, if you have time to hit accession then your not in real danger anyways.

High Conserve mp traits would be nice since your doing alot of things at once

Saevel is exactly right, there's 0 issue with not having solace or higher cures. You can get tons of potency out of cure4, and tanks don't get melted on 6man content. MP isn't even that big a deal, with RDM's ability to self refresh and native convert.

Making accession truly instant so you can macro it alongside cure4 with no wait would go a long way, or giving RDM it's own flavor of aoe heal(whether it's a new spell, or a JA, long recast, whatever).

Granted, I think RDM and SCH are both already quite powerful in alliance content and adequate healers for a lot of 6 man content. I don't really see a problem with WHM being required for a TP zerg, and there's nothing wrong with using a RDM or SCH healer for a controlled fight.

I don't disagree with you; I just find it HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE that RDM gets Cure 4 at a low enough level to keep it with /rdm yet for another 51 levels it get no cure spells at all. (44 levels on sch)

...

What kind of RDMs have you been around to even think this?

Paralyze II / Slow II / Addle II are boss and I use them all the time on big stuff.

Dia III is brokenly good because it's a unique form of defense down that stacks additively with all the rest, very useful for when Frailty Geomancy is nerfed.

Bio III is in a similiar boat but since attack down doesn't experience the same exponential returns as defense down, and we can only have one or the other, Dia III wins.

Blind is useless due to evasion tanking not being a thing anymore, the actual potency is pretty good just we don't really use the hundreds of evasion required to make it all work.

They updated Poison II but honestly it's just not enough with how hard we hit now.

And then the two best debuffs, Frazzle III and Distract III. Those alone are worth their weight in gold, the only issue is Frazzle III being dark based and resisted on too many things.

Sab now having a duration and being on a 3min cooldown means all the above just got WAY better. Pop Sab then cripple the boss with debuffs. They will last longer then Sab's recast and so you can maintain those OP debuffs longer.

Now here is the crux, are those debuffs sufficient to justify bringing a RDM in alliance content? Most certainly yes, they fit perfectly in a tank PT where they Haste II / Refresh III / backup Cure the party while piling on the debuffs. Is it worth bringing them in a six man group, no it's not. Six man teams are too tight for space and stacking BRD+GEO+COR is always better, especially since the COR is a pseudo DD anyway.

If no tank then it's
DD x 2
WHM (healer)
COR/BRD/GEO

The only slot a RDM could function is as the healer, but only if they had the ability to heal both DD's, the COR and the GEO at the same time after a heavy AoE attack, ala Curaga III. Hell even BRD's are becoming pseudo DD's these days.

So unless SE makes Composure a Haste / Accuracy aura, RDM won't be fitting into any of those three buffing slots.

RDM is fine in a 6 man group using RNG, COR, BLM, SMN, or a combination alongside a tank. They keep the tank up and increase the damage of the DPS. It just can't keep up with a melee burn. I'd even be inclined to say RDM is better than WHM in those circumstances.

frazzle and distract, 2 spells out of rdm large arsenal. Distract is often not even needed with brd around, and geo is normally taken over a rdm for frazzle.

Brd and Geo both have enough magic acc gear to land distract 1 as /rdm and even make a magic accuracy and a potency version for frazzle 1.
That isn't nearly as strong as the tier 3 versions, but why take a rdm for just 2 spells that can be out shined by other jobs.

You completely missed the point of beefing up the potency of enfeebles.

not needed, rdm gets refresh 3, job point gift boosted convert and tons of refresh idle gear.

Cure V would have zero effect, and why I suggested Curaga III at level 49 as that would actually have an effect. WHM's use Cure IV and III as their primary cures and those are gained even lower then RDM's so it's not a problem. RDM's real high level spells are the gain-stat series, higher refresh / haste spells and amazing debuffs. Refresh III would be a critical spell for main healing as Curaga III is 180MP and we wouldn't have /SCH to reduce it or WHM's pants to get a refund.

And Sifahir Slacks should be SCH/RDM/WHM and make then 3% refund. WHM has better but at least those would help out.

While lacking Cure V is certainly not a big reasons for RDM and SCH not being able to main heal many high endgame events, it certainly wouldn't have "zero" effect. WHMs already have basically 50% better single target cures because of Solace and better gear, so they can get away with Cure IV even in "oh ***" moments 99% of the time, but for RDM and SCH on occasion Cure IV every 3 seconds just isn't enough to keep someone alive in an emergency situation.