Dev Tracker - Discussion

Extremely little...

AG Rag
DMG: 304
Delay: 431
Skill +269
Acc +60
Crit +14%

Montante +1
DMG: 299
Delay: 475
Skill +242
Attack +34
Store TP +11
Triple Attack +5

On a WS like Resolution with 85% WSC, your looking at well over 300 DMG coming from the stat mod, which renders the base damage difference negligible. Then the Monte not only has a much better delay (133 TP per hit) vs Rag's 431 (122 TP per hit) but it comes with Store TP +11 which is present in both TP sets and most importantly during the WS. This means you need a lot less Store TP in TP gear, meaning you can pack on more Multi-Attack for faster WS cycles. The fact that the weapon has 5% TA is just icing on the cake.

So the reason why Montante / Raetic / augmented Zulfiqar beat Rag is they can all WS faster which is the entire point of a great sword.

We all get that, and all knew exactly what your next post would be. We all know where the current Rag stands.

20% crit damage would make Rag part of every WARs tool kit.

This is what you said


Which his incorrect. It merely makes it situational, like it already is. Putting +crit anything on a GS is about as useful as putting +crit on a Scythe.

Now if SE added delay and some Store TP, then we would be having a different discussion.

My hypothetical thought is better then yours!!

When you're all done playing my favorite game, "Jump to conclusions", maybe you should just wait and see what the augs actually are.

It would be top tier. Every single serious WAR would have and use it. You’ll be mathing how great it is for MS for us for years to come and we’ll eHighfive.

+crit and +crit damage are two very different beast.

And every WAR weapon is situational...

The Aftermath/hidden effect/white damage shouldn't be overlooked as Scourge > Resolution > Scourge makes double light and will do more DPS than just only using Resolution. After parsing three potential scenarios multiple times on Apex Bats with standard optimal buffs (Reso w/o Aftermath 3,800~ DPS, x1 1000tp Scourge AM 3,950 DPS~, Scourge > Reso > Scourge 4,900~) Scourge > Reso > Scourge came ahead by miles. You could argue that Montante/Zulf would win in a mighty strikes zerg scenario though.

I stand corrected :)


Yeah, a +pet enmity path would be amazing. We're probably going to get... pet accuracy. I would not be surprised at that.

No

I mean... I get what you're saying. But I'd certainly take something like a Pet: DT-10% (or something a little more outside the box like MDT- II) and still like it. Would just free you up to tank in less DT- gear if capped, and fulltime more Heyoka pet enmity. Potentially same result by using different slots to get the enmity+/DT- you need.

And frankly, the DT also provides some help to non-tank puppets too, for whenever you might want to use a more DD/mage oriented pet that might NOT want pet enmity+.

But yeah I'd definitely prefer pet Lv+. I'm sure we'll get Pet Acc/Racc/Macc and sadness.

Well said.

No.

Cycle time is the important value and Montante +1 ends up having a better cycle time in Rag and about the same as a poorly augmented Zulfiqar. You can blame the unfavorable delay for that. Rag needs somewhere around 60~64 total Store TP in TP gear while Montante +1 requires around 36 and it gives you 11 of that value (it has to do with the TP return on the WS). I'm actually over-TPing because there simply isn't anything else to remove.

Damage during TP phase is very small in comparison to damage during WS's, along the lines of 10~15% TP damage 85~90% WS damage. Rag's bonus damage to TP is small, the 2.5x proc only happens on the first attack and only 15% of the time. The +14% crit is even less impressive. Damage on WS multiplied by total number of WS's is whats important and those other GS's just let pile on so much more Multi-Attack then Rag does.

It's already been mathed, tested, retested and reretested, Montante +1 / Raetic > Rag = Zulfiqar if accuracy isn't needed. They win because of what they let you change in your TP set.

And lol at using Scourge for the double light, that WS tops out at around ~18~20K while Reso goes up to 40K+. The only time Scourge is useful is when your sitting at 2K+ TP and Sekkanoki is ready, then you can pop Sekka and do 1K Scourge -> 1.5~2K Resolution. Because Reso is ending you get the SC damage from Reso on the first light, using Scourge again is stupid because the total damage won't exceed what you get from another Reso and Scourge doesn't scale with TP. Plus if your going to be doing SC's then use a real SC weapon like Chango / Anguta or even Cada, the SC's from those will far exceed what you'll get from Rag.

Realize normal Apex take 1.5 ~ 2x from SC damage, go "test" that on Apex frogs.

AG ragnarok is already pretty competitive to mont/zulfiqar with SAM roll(which fixes it's biggest weakness aka delay screwing X hit). It's certainly not a horrible weapon, the entire reason why people bash it so hard is because PUG worships Rema without reasons and it cost 100m to build.

But in reality, with SAM roll you probably won't notice too much difference between rag and mont+1 on parse. It's just another "this weapon is better by 30 dps under X condition" like all other gears.

With augments I can certainly see it compete with raetic +1 at least outside of escha with SAM roll. Of course reward:effort ratio is another discussion.

X-hits aren't even that big of a deal anymore when using WSs with good TP scaling (and you don't have massive amounts of TP bonus, like when Warcry is up, using an Aeonic, or using Savage on Cor). TP overflow goes directly into WS damage, and not WSing quite as many times reduces the amount of time you're stuck waiting for WS delay to finish.

It's about cycle speed, X-hit is just a way of expressing that. (Number of Hits Required/Average Attacks Per Round) + WS Time (2s) is how it basically goes. You gain TP faster making you WS faster by reducing number of hits and increasing average hits per round. Montante +1 does both of those while Rag does neither. Now giving Rag Store TP +15 would be a huge advantage.

And no, Samurai's roll doesn't "fix" Rag, it effects all things and actually helps Montante +1 a little more then Rag due to WS time being not dependent on weapon delay. Samurai's Roll knocks a hit off your time till 1000 and adds additional power to the WS. Reducing a hit from a higher delay weapon is more beneficial then on a lower delay weapon though the difference is very small.



Your still doing less damage by not going as fast as possible due to Moonshade and Fotia existing, and that's on the better scaling WS's. Hell we can completely eliminate the 2s delay by just not WSing at all, then congratulate ourselves at finding a new strategy for winning the game.

If you use spreadsheet you'd see the difference between AG rag and Mont +1 is very very small with sam roll. One can pull ahead of another depending on situation.

Even if that's cause by spreadsheet giving white damage more weight, augments coming Sept can certainly fix the difference and make Rag competitive.

DPS actually changes very little at X-hit thresholds even for WSs like Resolution (barring things like Warcry and Lionheart). The competing effects of Fotia items and Moonshade earring vs WS delay makes WSing at exactly 1000 TP basically no net gain over one more hit (assuming the mob has enough HP, of course).

Even for WSs with lesser fTP gain (but still decent), like Torcleaver, STP's DPS gain depends quite little on whether it's getting you to another tier of x-hit.

Your being obtuse to troll.

Faster TP = more damage, we won't use Samurai's Roll if that wasn't the case. X-hit is just an expression of TP gain because we can't WS faster then 1K. And yes bumping from a 6-hit to a 5-hit is a noticeable gain in damage, bumping again to a 4-hit is another noticeable boost. Being at a 5-hit and deliberately waiting is really dumb, but not as crippling as it used to be. That's like saying "I could do more damage, but I chose not to because I'm want to be different". A person at a 5-hit will gain TP faster and thus do more damage then a person at a 6-hit, Multi-Attack being equal.

Of course faster TP = more damage, but that doesn't mean that x-hits are necessarily going to make a notable difference, or that raw number of (well-scaling) WSs will make you do more damage if your TP gain is the same. For example, for Resolution, the factors of TP overflow increasing WS damage combined with less idle time due to WS delay essentially completely cancels out the bonuses from Fotia and Moonshade.

For well scaling WSs like Resolution in the absence of large amounts of TP bonus, the total TP gain speed over time matters significantly more than hitting exactly 1000 tp in as few hits as possible.

Both the spreadsheets and the sims attest to this. More STP increases your damage, but your DPS with WSs like Resolution does not have noticeable break points where x-hits happen assuming just Fotia and Moonshade.

Your confusing deliberately waiting and incidental overflow.

Deliberately waiting means your wasting damage potential. Incidental overflow is just free damage from extra hits during the TP phase that push you past 1K. If none of this was true you wouldn't be using Samurai's Roll for damage. Samurai's wouldn't be as powerful a job as it is nor would Warrior.

As I said


That was hyperbole, but the concept remains the same. Do a fight where you WS at 1K and another where you WS at 2.5K, the first one you do noticeably more damage. There is no dramatic drop, instead it gets progressively worse the farther you drift from 1K. So going from 1K to 1250 isn't a dramatic reduction, yet it still a reduction with no benefit.

No I'm not, and the fact you think I am means you're completely missing what I'm saying. Incidental overflow and deliberately waiting a short time both have minimal effect on total DPS for Resolution because of how well it scales and the mechanics of WS delay.

Let's say you get 250 TP per hit, have 100% DA rate, and attack every 1.58 seconds (Montonte +1 with capped haste), and your Resolution averages 25k at 1000 TP using fotia x2 and Moonshade (just a general number). Let's ignore melee damage because we're just looking at the difference between WS damage in the two situations, and assume Resolution gives 0 TP (it doesn't change the comparison much if it doesn't, but it makes the math a lot less clear). If you want me to math out another set with Resolutions that give TP, I can later.

If you WS exactly after every 4 hits (2 rounds), you'll do 25k Resolutions (1.114 fTP) every 5.16 (2 rounds of 1.58 seconds each plus 2 seconds WS delay) seconds, for 4844 DPS.

If you WS after every 6 hits (3 rounds) for 1500 TP, you'll do ~33770 Resolutions (1.505 fTP) every 6.74 seconds (3 rounds of 1.58 seconds each plus 2 seconds of WS delay), for 5010 DPS.

Note that including melee damage would further skew the comparison towards the second scenario, since you have a higher proportion of swinging time vs waiting time.

The actual numbers will vary a bit, so that waiting can increase or reduce your DPS by tiny amounts, but this is true in general. This holds true whether you're deliberately waiting an extra hit, or whether you have an x-hit or not and have to wait an extra hit before you WS.

WS delay makes a huge difference when your TP gain gets extremely high, and drastically reduces the benefits of x-hits, sometimes to almost nothing. When you have more TP bonus than this (when Warcry is up, when using an Aeonic, or using a WS with lesser TP scaling) or using a WS with lesser (but not crappy) TP scaling yes, x-hits matter more, but getting more multi-hit even at the expense of an x-hit often still grants better DPS increases if your WS. Adding more STP without sacrifice will always help (whether that's from Samurai Roll or not), but that's independent of whether it gets you to a better x-hit or not.

These numbers don't line up. 4-hit is 4.399s on montante +1 and it looks like your being rather liberal with the WS formula. In any case it was settled a long *** time ago that you still WS as fast as possible for Reso. Extra time didn't punish you much, but it still does punish you. You can easily see this by doing a fight where you don't WS until 2500. By that time the damage difference is significant enough to easily notice.

I remember playing with the DPS spreadsheet on DRG a year ago, and could not for the life of me figure out why the Petrov ring outperformed Hetaroi. It wasn't changing an X-hit and it was a Stardiver spam. The TP overflow created from just 5 STP had a larger increase on DPS than the other differences in the rings (mainly 2TA v 1 DA).

Montonte +1 is 475 delay, which puts it at 475/60 = 7.917 seconds (assuming an average of 60 delay per second, which isn't 100% exact, but is extremely damn close) with no haste, which goes to 1.58 seconds with 80% haste.

I was using the (essentially) exact fTP values for 1000 TP and 1500 TP Resolution with 250 TP bonus and +0.2 fTP from Gorget plus belt. It might have been "settled a long *** time ago", but as we've gotten higher and higher multi attack and STP from all sources over time, WS delay is more significant than it was back then, changing the results.

I never said you should wait until 2000+ TP, and was talking about values closer to 1000-1500, the usual range of 1 attack round away from 1000 (barring the rare quadruple attack or the like). Saying that you lose significant DPS by waiting until values as high as 2500 will be true regardless because multi-attacks can bring you too high for Moonshade to have full benefit, and because Resolution's TP slope slightly lowers after 2000.

Free TP overflow yeah, that's just bonus damage on your next WS. He's talking about deliberately waiting, which was shown to be dumb a long time ago. Frequently I have TP before my WS animation even ends so those numbers aren't very accurate.

A friend of mine has done a translation of the Freshly Picked to see if there was any additional information beyond the stats that Afania translated (the stats listed were correct, including the new stat for Drk neck). To be clear, this is a native JP speaker translating to Engrish that I've discussed with him and boiled down. We've been at this for a little over 2 days off and on. Some things may be a little misconstrued or lost between the languages. There were a few things the translator really wanted me to include as well. SE said repeatedly that things are still in development so some changes may occur. That said, some things of note were found.

-Necks gain the same augments between the qualities, but quality determines the cap of said augments

-RMEA weapons have one augment path each, each are unique

-Dyna weapons have 3 paths

-Of note with the Dyna weapons, the first two paths (referred to as baigeki, or 50% double damage, and tsuigeki, or 50% attack after attack, IE, Raetic) appear to be on each weapon – both are also confirmed to not work with WSs - while the third path is unique to each weapon

-To unlock the ability to begin the RMEA augment process, you must either damage the wave 3 boss corresponding to your weapon type (Bastok for Mythic, Windy for Relic, etc) a certain amount total, or go through the JP unlock process

-There is no unlock process for Dyna weapons, they're able to be augmented from the start

-There was a note about needing to have job master completed for augs as well as having your weapon AGed listed with the JP unlock process - It's possible you may not need to be mastered on the job or the weapon AGed to augment if you go the wave 3 boss route though this wasn't specifically said

-If you've already damaged the boss before the update, your points have been recorded, but even if you've earned enough to unlock the augments, you'll need to damage the boss again after the update before you have RMEA augments opened up to you

-If you've killed the boss, you've been flagged as complete and only need to meet (specified as meet, not damage or defeat) the boss to unlock your augments

-After augmenting has been unlocked, RMEA weapons are augmented with Reinforcement Points from an item that drops in both Dyna and Omen

-Dyna weapons are augmented with Reinforcement Points gained from killing “small fry” mobs in Dynamis with the weapon equipped or an item that drops in Dyna – This may be the same item as above for RMEA weapons, but they didn't mention Omen when discussing Dyna weapons

-No info was provided for augmenting the necks

Bonus point info:

-The next cosmetic weapon they're thinking of adding is Absolute Virtue's lance

-They're in the planning stages for Empy +2/+3 and updating old content, don't expect it soon

-They're planning on offering a new low man route for Vagary

-They're planning to offer a “choose your NM” option for Sinister Reign

-Someone asked if a Shadow Lord mount could be added – this was shot down

-They'll be adding a Goobue and Adamantoise mount

-They're planning on doing job adjustments – They want to do all jobs equally but slowly, not just jobs that are underperforming - New JAs, magic, avatars, and Pup attachments are largely off the table as they technically can't be added, but they're open to ideas from players

-FFXI is currently being ran at a profit

Your doing those numbers as a DRK with 100% MA somehow.

Anyhow this is just a rabbit hole your dragging everyone down into, the whole point of the discussion was that faster TP = more damage because WS damage dominates the meta. In order for Ragnarok to start to win against the other GS's it needs a way to increase total WS damage via increased TP gain.

I was doing those numbers assuming Haste Samba for simplicity's sake. The raw numbers on the Resolutions in my examples themselves don't matter, only the ratios between them, which are accurate. The difference between 0.20x normal delay and 0.215x isn't large enough to affect the conclusions.

Conclusions back during VW era about this subect are invalid given all of the fTP rearranging since then and plethora of MA and STP we now have. Yes, x-hits were extremely powerful back when nearly no WSs had good TP scaling, but that has changed for WSs like Resolution.

It's general fukboi ***like this that really gets under my skin. We have no reliable English translation team currently. Whey are they so sensitive about this kind of stuff? Man these e-feelings on the JP side getting hurt any time an NA player makes any accomplishment in the game.

So just so we're keeping score:
Not allowed to win events before JP players
New updates shouldn't be translated to English, cuz advantages and ***

Thanks for the translation Malothar

I'll bow out of this discussion so that people can actually talk about dev news without is clogging it up. Didn't see Malothar's post.