True veterans are tough to come by these days. I know 3 people who play still from back before the level 20 avatar fights were released. Before Dynamis. but being around a long time doesnt necessarily make you a good player.
A good player - or in the term you are using here: veteran - could be put in any role and know the bascis and know how to be helpful.
Put a veteran who doesnt play bard into the bard role and I bet you they know that the mages get mage songs and the DD get DD songs and you need to stand a certain place to make sure they dont over lap.
Put a veteran corsair in the group and mages and melee will have different rolls. Then the cor will proceed to be near the top the DD charts (where applicable) while maintaining said roles with maximum benefits.
Veteran DDs know when to zerg and when to hold WS... even if they arent the best geared or the top of the charts.
Veterans help the party they are in whether they are the best or not. They dont hurt the group with their presence.
What Makes A {Veteran} Vs {Amateur} Player?
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What makes a {Veteran} vs {Amateur} player?
But that in and of itself doesn't make or disqualify somebody from being a "Veteran". I mean, let's not confuse the two.
We are talking about Job-Specific veterans here. When it comes to Veteran, we are mainly talking about being a well-qualified player for the job you play. A veteran GEO means you're well geared and know what you're doing. veteran SMN means you have appropriate gear, stats, and respectable DD. We're not particularly talking about being a super team-player who does what's best for the group and will change jobs if we ask him to. Of course, ideally, you're looking for a player who possesses both qualities, but when I see the word "Veteran", I think "experience playing your job". edit: I guess I should be careful how I word things. Not saying anybody is wrong or I am right, not my intention, but just trying to make sure there is clarity in other people's definition of the term. Because it varies heavily. Where I am speaking particularly as a person playing a certain job and being a "Veteran" in their role, others are commenting on how a player overall is a "veteran", which by the title, gives that impression as well. Carry on. "Vets will come on an appropriate job for the task rather than merely what's fun today."
This all day every day.
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Fenrir.Pertalee said: » "Vets will come on an appropriate job for the task rather than merely what's fun today." This all day every day. BAM! I'll second this one. Fenrir.Pertalee said: » "Vets will come on an appropriate job for the task rather than merely what's fun today." This all day every day. This is half of the "Veteran". The other half is actually knowing wtf you're doing. Just because you "have PLD" and you "have 50% DT" does -not- make you a "veteran PLD". If someone has to tell you what you need to do for said content, you're not a vet, no matter how many JP you have, how much gil you spent on gear.
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Calinar said: » Fenrir.Pertalee said: » "Vets will come on an appropriate job for the task rather than merely what's fun today." This all day every day. This is half of the "Veteran". The other half is actually knowing wtf you're doing. Just because you "have PLD" and you "have 50% DT" does -not- make you a "veteran PLD". If someone has to tell you what you need to do for said content, you're not a vet, no matter how many JP you have, how much gil you spent on gear. There's a slight 'other side of the coin' as it were to this statement. It's generally a good idea to have someone(s) appointed as the person to call out things during a run to keep things focused and simple. "Pull Bhata next." or "Get Elemental Seal Breakga ready. My sleep timers are almost down". Kodaijin said: » Put a veteran corsair in the group and mages and melee will have different rolls. Then the cor will proceed to be near the top the DD charts (where applicable) while maintaining said roles with maximum benefits. Giving mages(not DD mage like BLM, but support mages like whm, rdm, sch etc) mage roll is DPS killer these days though, not like whm ever run out of mp. Asura.Avallon said: » Calinar said: » Fenrir.Pertalee said: » "Vets will come on an appropriate job for the task rather than merely what's fun today." This all day every day. This is half of the "Veteran". The other half is actually knowing wtf you're doing. Just because you "have PLD" and you "have 50% DT" does -not- make you a "veteran PLD". If someone has to tell you what you need to do for said content, you're not a vet, no matter how many JP you have, how much gil you spent on gear. There's a slight 'other side of the coin' as it were to this statement. It's generally a good idea to have someone(s) appointed as the person to call out things during a run to keep things focused and simple. "Pull Bhata next." or "Get Elemental Seal Breakga ready. My sleep timers are almost down". This isn't what Calinar is talking about, being told to follow directions. Being able to follow directions is one thing, and nobody will fault you for asking what the battle plan is. I think he means moreso that "Just because you have a glowy burt, aegis, 3 stars, and shiny armor doesn't mean you have a clue how to even play the job effectively". If you have to explain to someone how to do intermediate tasks, like grab aoe hate or backwards tank a boss that has horrible gaze-type attacks, then you're not a veteran.
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Calinar said: » Fenrir.Pertalee said: » "Vets will come on an appropriate job for the task rather than merely what's fun today." This all day every day. This is half of the "Veteran". The other half is actually knowing wtf you're doing. Just because you "have PLD" and you "have 50% DT" does -not- make you a "veteran PLD". If someone has to tell you what you need to do for said content, you're not a vet, no matter how many JP you have, how much gil you spent on gear. I don't agree, communication is key, sometimes people do things wrong because nobody communicates, it's less about Vet or notVet. Lakshmi.Buukki said: » Asura.Avallon said: » Calinar said: » Fenrir.Pertalee said: » "Vets will come on an appropriate job for the task rather than merely what's fun today." This all day every day. This is half of the "Veteran". The other half is actually knowing wtf you're doing. Just because you "have PLD" and you "have 50% DT" does -not- make you a "veteran PLD". If someone has to tell you what you need to do for said content, you're not a vet, no matter how many JP you have, how much gil you spent on gear. There's a slight 'other side of the coin' as it were to this statement. It's generally a good idea to have someone(s) appointed as the person to call out things during a run to keep things focused and simple. "Pull Bhata next." or "Get Elemental Seal Breakga ready. My sleep timers are almost down". This isn't what Calinar is talking about, being told to follow directions. Being able to follow directions is one thing, and nobody will fault you for asking what the battle plan is. I think he means moreso that "Just because you have a glowy burt, aegis, 3 stars, and shiny armor doesn't mean you have a clue how to even play the job effectively". If you have to explain to someone how to do intermediate tasks, like grab aoe hate or backwards tank a boss that has horrible gaze-type attacks, then you're not a veteran. But you wouldn't know the NM has gaze attack unless leader explains it. Calinar said: » Fenrir.Pertalee said: » "Vets will come on an appropriate job for the task rather than merely what's fun today." This all day every day. This is half of the "Veteran". The other half is actually knowing wtf you're doing. Just because you "have PLD" and you "have 50% DT" does -not- make you a "veteran PLD". If someone has to tell you what you need to do for said content, you're not a vet, no matter how many JP you have, how much gil you spent on gear. I don't agree with that. Never having fought something before doesn't say anything about the caliber of player you are. Otherwise we all become amateurs (in general) when new content comes out. Not to mention, sometimes wiki accounts are out of date/misinformed (since anyone can edit) and the people in your group can tell you what you need to do. Now sure, if you have to tell someone how to play their job, that says a lot but advising of fight mechanics doesn't mean anything. However, Pros will tend to do what research they can into the fight.
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Hey guys member when dynamis needed an alliance to get wins? I member.
Lakshmi.Buukki said: » Asura.Avallon said: » Calinar said: » Fenrir.Pertalee said: » "Vets will come on an appropriate job for the task rather than merely what's fun today." This all day every day. This is half of the "Veteran". The other half is actually knowing wtf you're doing. Just because you "have PLD" and you "have 50% DT" does -not- make you a "veteran PLD". If someone has to tell you what you need to do for said content, you're not a vet, no matter how many JP you have, how much gil you spent on gear. There's a slight 'other side of the coin' as it were to this statement. It's generally a good idea to have someone(s) appointed as the person to call out things during a run to keep things focused and simple. "Pull Bhata next." or "Get Elemental Seal Breakga ready. My sleep timers are almost down". This isn't what Calinar is talking about, being told to follow directions. Being able to follow directions is one thing, and nobody will fault you for asking what the battle plan is. I think he means moreso that "Just because you have a glowy burt, aegis, 3 stars, and shiny armor doesn't mean you have a clue how to even play the job effectively". If you have to explain to someone how to do intermediate tasks, like grab aoe hate or backwards tank a boss that has horrible gaze-type attacks, then you're not a veteran. Hence why I started my statement with "other side of the coin". I knew exactly what he was talking about.
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Afania said: » Lakshmi.Buukki said: » Asura.Avallon said: » Calinar said: » Fenrir.Pertalee said: » "Vets will come on an appropriate job for the task rather than merely what's fun today." This all day every day. This is half of the "Veteran". The other half is actually knowing wtf you're doing. Just because you "have PLD" and you "have 50% DT" does -not- make you a "veteran PLD". If someone has to tell you what you need to do for said content, you're not a vet, no matter how many JP you have, how much gil you spent on gear. There's a slight 'other side of the coin' as it were to this statement. It's generally a good idea to have someone(s) appointed as the person to call out things during a run to keep things focused and simple. "Pull Bhata next." or "Get Elemental Seal Breakga ready. My sleep timers are almost down". This isn't what Calinar is talking about, being told to follow directions. Being able to follow directions is one thing, and nobody will fault you for asking what the battle plan is. I think he means moreso that "Just because you have a glowy burt, aegis, 3 stars, and shiny armor doesn't mean you have a clue how to even play the job effectively". If you have to explain to someone how to do intermediate tasks, like grab aoe hate or backwards tank a boss that has horrible gaze-type attacks, then you're not a veteran. But you wouldn't know the NM has gaze attack unless leader explains it. I'm referring more to the players lack of Useful maneuvers in the game. Say an NM is using a gaze move, or a move where you can easily run out of range, like Throat Stab. And the tank is getting hit with this move over and over, and doesn't correct it. That's indicative that this guy does not know what's going on. He can be told what to do, but some people just don't get it or understand how to perform basic tasks, even if you explain to them "AOE Tank these mobs and we'll nuke it down". You'd be surprised how many people voke one monster, run and agro the rest, and assume this is sufficient aoe tanking. With that said, I am in agreement that you cannot invite someone blindly and expect them to perform optimally to new content they are unfamiliar with. But when it comes to content, you expect a person to have certain skills and game-design logic that he can use to his advantage. And if he doesn't use it, or doesn't understand how to manipulate it to his advantage, he's not a vet.
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: » Afania said: » Lakshmi.Buukki said: » Asura.Avallon said: » Calinar said: » Fenrir.Pertalee said: » "Vets will come on an appropriate job for the task rather than merely what's fun today." This all day every day. This is half of the "Veteran". The other half is actually knowing wtf you're doing. Just because you "have PLD" and you "have 50% DT" does -not- make you a "veteran PLD". If someone has to tell you what you need to do for said content, you're not a vet, no matter how many JP you have, how much gil you spent on gear. I get it There's a slight 'other side of the coin' as it were to this statement. It's generally a good idea to have someone(s) appointed as the person to call out things during a run to keep things focused and simple. "Pull Bhata next." or "Get Elemental Seal Breakga ready. My sleep timers are almost down". This isn't what Calinar is talking about, being told to follow directions. Being able to follow directions is one thing, and nobody will fault you for asking what the battle plan is. I think he means moreso that "Just because you have a glowy burt, aegis, 3 stars, and shiny armor doesn't mean you have a clue how to even play the job effectively". If you have to explain to someone how to do intermediate tasks, like grab aoe hate or backwards tank a boss that has horrible gaze-type attacks, then you're not a veteran. But you wouldn't know the NM has gaze attack unless leader explains it. I'm referring more to the players lack of Useful maneuvers in the game. Say an NM is using a gaze move, or a move where you can easily run out of range, like Throat Stab. And the tank is getting hit with this move over and over, and doesn't correct it. That's indicative that this guy does not know what's going on. He can be told what to do, but some people just don't get it or understand how to perform basic tasks, even if you explain to them "AOE Tank these mobs and we'll nuke it down". You'd be surprised how many people voke one monster, run and agro the rest, and assume this is sufficient aoe tanking. With that said, I am in agreement that you cannot invite someone blindly and expect them to perform optimally to new content they are unfamiliar with. But when it comes to content, you expect a person to have certain skills and game-design logic that he can use to his advantage. And if he doesn't use it, or doesn't understand how to manipulate it to his advantage, he's not a vet. Asura.Avallon said: » It is what it is. We all want to play the jobs we enjoy, but the fact of the matter is you just can't beat Schah with an alliance full of melee WHM's no matter how hard we'd like that to transpire. At the end of the day, we have to come on the jobs needed to beat whatever it is we're fighting at the time. Admittedly, I initially leveled PLD to *** out to gear my DRG. But I already enjoyed tanking the nastier campaign NMs on DRG/BLU back when. /NostalgiaTrip. I think someone that understands their roll as a specific job at whatever X event is. I say they have almost all gearsets built even if they are not BiS.
Examples: Fastcast DT Refresh Idle MB Enfeeble Enhancing Duration TP(accuracy) I dont know how many "Veterans" I have taken into Omen that are just clueless about the job they have 3 stars over their head. Knowing which JA's you have and can use to do objectives would be a good example. just throwing in .02
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Ragnarok.Martel said: » Asura.Avallon said: » It is what it is. We all want to play the jobs we enjoy, but the fact of the matter is you just can't beat Schah with an alliance full of melee WHM's no matter how hard we'd like that to transpire. At the end of the day, we have to come on the jobs needed to beat whatever it is we're fighting at the time. Admittedly, I initially leveled PLD to *** out to gear my DRG. But I already enjoyed tanking the nastier campaign NMs on DRG/BLU back when. /NostalgiaTrip. Yeah, I hear you there. In all actuality, the options for defeating quite a few NM's these days have broadened. The SCH MB strat isn't the end all be all now days. People have beat everything Escha has to offer with melee too - which opens up a lot more job options for people to come on (provided they know wtf they're doing). It is definitely true that there are a lot of extremely well geared noobs on jobs like PLD, BLM, GEO, WHM, SCH. (It's a twisted thing that those are the goto jobs). And BLU, god there are a lot of terrible BLUs. (Most melee are equally simple).
Those jobs are easy enough that you can be medicore and still beat things. A mediocre Ninja (tank) never lasted very long and jobs like Bard, Rune Fencer or Dancer are so bound up in their own mechanics that the bad ones are clearly bad in any content you bring them to. While I wouldn't say any job is hard, the floor for 'acceptable' for some jobs is much higher.
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Fenrir.Kaldaek said: » Fenrir.Pertalee said: » "Vets will come on an appropriate job for the task rather than merely what's fun today." This all day every day. BAM! I'll second this one. There's some truth to that, but there's also some to the fact the meta isn't always right, and even if it is, there's always more than one way to beat things. I mean, Papesse has for years done things on SMN when other people just said smn was irrelevant, for example doing Yorcia Delve speedruns sporting Ifrit doing 99999 damage when delve was still hard. There's people like Bloodlusty too, always showing DRK is still relevant no matter how many people say it isn't. Basically, to me, the people with passion who break all the supposed rules to achieve their dreams of doing things on the jobs they love to play is something I look up to. They can't do it alone though and often have to lead to get things done that way, which means others have to follow which almost certainly means some of those in the group aren't on THEIR favorite job, so it's kind of catch 22 in the end isn't it. There's one other aspect too, there's many cases I'd rather have some guy on a job that he's exceptional at than a job they are subpar at just to fit a setup. I try to not worry about if I'm a vet or not though I bought the game on day 1 I took many breaks. If others in game feel I'm a dependable player that having me around increases their likelihood of victory and/or look to me for strategy, game knowledge, or setups that's enough for me. I know to some I'll never be vet just because I never experienced old school HNMs or NIN/BRD tanking.
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But there's also, how many pro points do you lose for using gearswap/addons in general (I use gearswap, no shame).
Some people do quite well in Vanilla XI with cascading macros that go all over the place. I know most the people here use Windower (or Ashita) and everybody here depends on the performance of someone who does. "Guys, Kyou looks like he has about 77/100 pixels in his hp bar, gather in"
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Valefor.Omnys said: » But there's also, how many pro points do you lose for using gearswap/addons in general That inventory system sounds like something I wish they'd do for XI but Omen indicates that won't be happening:
Let us convert ability-enhancing JSE to key items. My valor feet are now a key item, it means sentinel is always enhanced, every time. No swap. I like swapping for WS and spells, I don't like inventory -1s, but it's how things are designed. But...off topic.
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Quote: There's people like Bloodlusty too, always showing DRK is still relevant no matter how many people say it isn't. Who's saying DRK isn't relevant? Point them out to me so I can laugh at them. Quote: But there's also, how many pro points do you lose for using gearswap/addons in general (I use gearswap, no shame). Some people do quite well in Vanilla XI with cascading macros that go all over the place. I use windower, but not gs (haven't learned it yet). Its certainly a challenge. I cannot accept flurry when I'm on corsair, because my current build shoots faster than my /ra <t> macro can support. I have too much FC on RUN that I've actually dropped merits in the merit category, because FC -> cure or buff much faster than the in-game engine allows you to do. The end result is you are curing yourself in FC gear or buffing in FC gear, and enhancing gear gets equipped afterwards. Its certainly more of a hindrance than anything if you're looking to be optimal. It has caused me to die a few times, getting "caught" between sets. But nothing you can't work around by just adjusting your sets (translated: losing stats in vital slots) Calinar said: » If someone has to tell you what you need to do for said content, you're not a vet, no matter how many JP you have, how much gil you spent on gear. Yeah, 'veterans' generally know what to do w/o being asked, and can adjust their play to suit the given strategy/tactics, and can even make wholesale changes to what they're doing on the fly, if needed. But let's be real here... the vast majority of players will be incapable automatons at best... which I still prefer to the impertinent, unteachable ahole. Lakshmi.Buukki said: » Who's saying DRK isn't relevant? Point them out to me so I can laugh at them. Lakshmi.Buukki said: » I cannot accept flurry when I'm on corsair, because my current build shoots faster than my /ra <t> macro can support /equipset 88 <wait 1> /ra <t> /equipset 89 88 = preshot 89 = midshot You time hitting your macro when you start dropping the weapon in the firing animation. The wait 1 takes place during the reload delay which is always 1 second. Doing this I actually shot faster than autora, but I did make mistakes a few times and got off timing but that'd just be more practice I guess. Guess it's getting off topic again /em absconds
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Verda said: » I might be able to help out there. I tested with RNG with flurry 2, velocity and atalanta crossbow, you can make vanilla macros for keeping up with both preshot and midshot for that. Some think if you get a very high rapid shot proc it doesn't work but I never noticed that. You don't setup your macro in a way that makes sense though at first: /equipset 88 <wait 1> /ra <t> /equipset 89 88 = preshot 89 = midshot That actually works? My macro is usually /equipset ## (snapshot) /ra <t> /wait 1 /equipset ## (shoot) So you're saying if I put the wait before the action, it will always work? Will this work for something like... switching to FC casting a spell switching to spell casting gear then after a brief wait, switching to DT set? Not sure on fastcast, can say I've tested it for ranged attacks tho :) I think it works for fast cast but not if quick magic happens or your casting time is less than 1 second. Your first ranged attack is 1 second slow but it works otherwise due to the 1 second reload delay as far as I've always seen. It's been a while for fastcast for me, but I remember doing that one as:
/equipset 78 /ma "Spell" <t> <wait 1> /equipset 79 78 = fastcast 79 = midcast But I wouldn't take my word on the fastcast stuff as it's been too long since I did it that way.
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For me, the difference between Amateur and Veteran is very simple, gear jp aside would be the reason why things are done the way they are done. More and more Amateur players show up with top end gear without any af1/2/3 have few or no delve wins and are unable to answer why we need certain jobs over others for a given strategy. Best part of a group of Amateur players is they can be trained very fast as to why they should do certain things over others. Veteran players tend to be more into an already standard mindset of how things work and should not break with that.
Have fun Melee your geo and whm and have a pup main heal for once! It is not whether you can spot an amateur from a veteran, but rather how to spot a Noob from a Newb.
I will start off by saying if your ls has way too many people online or even had to make a sequel ls for overflow, you are a noob. Not to mention any names. This list is definitely my opinion and my own personal red flags, But veteran vs amateur is meaningless, amateurs can easily just buy veteran accounts and then press Ctrl+12 as easily as the next guy. Noob - Been playing game for a fairly long time, claims his long playtime = experience. - "windower?" - "Gearswap?" - "I tried that once but i didnt like it so i never got my rajas ring" -DRK+PUP4LYFE -"can anyone help me... its totally something i can get a pug for... too much effort.... where is that? ...." - Replies to shout "What does that drop" - "I cant afford 4$ for 160 more mog wardrobe slots" and finally the biggest problem i have "Please lockstyle because im a whm without blinkmenot/dressup" Newb - Completely new to the game but has no trouble learning the ins and outs, not at all wasting anyones time like the above Noob. In fact noobs are actually relaying false information to Newbs. If a Newb is not domesticated correctly instead of one day becoming a veteran, it may just become another noob. #Noobpandemic - "Just found a good skeleton lua, saw a set for curing waltz, didnt even think about it but now im going to get a set prepared" -"Would anyone like to help me.... I have a party and just need a ... " -"bgwiki says..." -"well i was reading the forums for my class and..." -"should my ws set...." - "What jobs are useful in the endgame?" Now a veteran player and a noob. When a newb needs help a veteran wont hold their and and snk and invis them, and farm their god damn coffer keys. Thats what desperate noobs do if you are playing a mithra. DON'T WASTE OTHER PEOPLES TIME, SHOW UP FOR A PARTY PREPARED |
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