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Shedu
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-03-23 03:09:22
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Asura.Saevel said: »
though you'd have to change your buff sequence to give them capped haste.
Not necessarily, NIN can easily cap haste in all possible buff conditions simply by changing the amount of DW gear they equip.
Captain Obvious I know, and a certain amount of DPS loss of course.
The problem I see is more about the fact that NO WAY a NIN is gonna do anywhere close to what a BLU can do in term of damage, especially when they can't make use of Innin (in this scenario, you can't!) and it also means you wouldn't be able to have perma Mighty Guard every fight because with only one BLU you won't be able to rotate Diffusion.
So... yeah.

I could see DNC working somewhat though.

But in the end we could go on discussing this until tomorrow and find no final argument making so all of us agree.
I can totally see many other DD combinations work in place of BLU, the point is that nothing is gonna be as easy/efficient as 2x BLU, period.
Are other combination doable? Absolutely.
Are they gonna make the fight as "easy" as with the setup posted above? Alas, no. =/


Quote:
Due to the massive need of debuff removal I suggest one GEO and the COR (or BRD) come /WHM for this fight to assist with status removals.
That can help, especially if your WHM has no Yagrush. I've been going /WHM sometimes myself.
Doing this becomes more useful the slower your party is able to kill, and vice-versa.
Also do not forget those C4s guys, like I mentioned above. A nicely timed C4 from a GEO or BRD can easily make the difference between survival and dead DD, which often leads to wipe.
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-23 03:58:32
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Not necessarily, NIN can easily cap haste in all possible buff conditions simply by changing the amount of DW gear they equip.


DW =/= Haste

Haste is a far more potent buff then DW, it's a significant DPS loss for them. Better to have a GEO do entrust Indi-haste and hope the fight ends before it wears, or bring a BRD instead of a COR.

Asura.Sechs said: »
I could see DNC working somewhat though.

The DNC would have to go /NIN and thus nullifying the benefits of /WAR. NIN is actually quite competitive in terms of damage, far more then people give it credit for.

From a DD's point of view this fight is about shadow spamming as the NM will be wiping them with practically every TP move but you need them to survive HF. NIN is the only other job that has native high count shadows, better then BLU even due to them being on multiple recast timers. It's not a pure "smash WS" zerg, you need to keep shadows up and switch into -DT gear whenever the nastier TP moves go off.
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By Nellarie 2016-03-23 06:49:15
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Update!

Thank you for all of the advice. We ran Shedu again last night, and got a win! I wound up getting a flyssa, though I was hoping for the club.. at least it looks pretty though! (Hauteclaire II!)

We weren't able to get any rangers, so we ended up being PUP WHM COR COR GEO GEO BLU (all 2100 jp,). We initially planned to bring only 6, but a friend wanted to come as blue mage and it worked out well. We did wipe a few couple times before we started winning, but it was due to some technical mistakes we were making. I was in my own party, so I got killed by fulmination when trying to use Maintenance. The safe distance definitely seems to be over 30 yalms.

It's worth mentioning that we didn't run into ANY hate issues during 100 fists, so really don't think it's actually a hate reset. After I got initial aggro on my puppet, Shedu was soundly glued to my puppet. With the geomancers casting Vex and Attunement, the magic damage was drastically lowered, and my puppet rarely dropped below 100% even during 100 fists (which he used like 7 times). I didn't even have to switch to 2x lights this time. I only went into range to use Maintenance for Petrify, then otherwise stayed beyond 30 yalms.

I really think the "weird hate" issues people are running into on hundred fists might be related to Shedu's combination of 100 fists + enthunder, and the fact that he uses it so frequently. Because of the large chunks of damage the tanks are taking, they lose significant CE, which could be what is causing them to lose hate. Since the puppet had 4k HP and high regen, it didn't lose much CE at all, so Shedu stayed on my puppet. No hate resets.

I've spoken to some very good paladin friends, and they said that even with Aegis, the 100 fists + enthunder effect was deadly for them. So I am betting that may have factored into losing hate.

TL,DR: We got the win! PUP tanking was fantastic for this fight. we beat him soundly with very little damage taken. Geomancers with Vex and Attunement really do make a world of difference. Blue mage worked well, but so did ranged jobs. I'm sure any combination of physical DD would be just fine for this fight if there is a PUP and a pair of good geomancers.
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By Nellarie 2016-03-23 07:06:45
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Asura.Saevel said: »
The DNC would have to go /NIN and thus nullifying the benefits of /WAR. NIN is actually quite competitive in terms of damage, far more then people give it credit for.

From a DD's point of view this fight is about shadow spamming as the NM will be wiping them with practically every TP move but you need them to survive HF. NIN is the only other job that has native high count shadows, better then BLU even due to them being on multiple recast timers. It's not a pure "smash WS" zerg, you need to keep shadows up and switch into -DT gear whenever the nastier TP moves go off.


I agree with everything. DNC/NIN is definitely viable for this. As Dancer I never use /WAR anyway because saber dance overwrites the double attack trait. I get 10% more base double attack if subbing ninja, plus the shadows help with staying alive :)

Blue mage is definitely quite nice for this, and I can see the 3x BLU, 2x Geo, Whm working well. However if you can't get a party like that, then just about any strong (and smart) DD job would work fine with a well geared master PUP tank and at least one good geomancer.

Also, Tru's suggestion of having the WHM cast a Light Shot powered Dia II along with Boost spells helped quite nicely.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2016-03-23 07:42:46
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Nellarie said: »
Update!


It's worth mentioning that we didn't run into ANY hate issues during 100 fists, so really don't think it's actually a hate reset. After I got initial aggro on my puppet, Shedu was soundly glued to my puppet. With the geomancers casting Vex and Attunement, the magic damage was drastically lowered, and my puppet rarely dropped below 100% even during 100 fists (which he used like 7 times). I didn't even have to switch to 2x lights this time. I only went into range to use Maintenance for Petrify, then otherwise stayed beyond 30 yalms.

I really think the "weird hate" issues people are running into on hundred fists might be related to Shedu's combination of 100 fists + enthunder, and the fact that he uses it so frequently. Because of the large chunks of damage the tanks are taking, they lose significant CE, which could be what is causing them to lose hate. Since the puppet had 4k HP and high regen, it didn't lose much CE at all, so Shedu stayed on my puppet. No hate resets.

I've spoken to some very good paladin friends, and they said that even with Aegis, the 100 fists + enthunder effect was deadly for them. So I am betting that may have factored into losing hate.

TL,DR: We got the win! PUP tanking was fantastic for this fight. we beat him soundly with very little damage taken. Geomancers with Vex and Attunement really do make a world of difference. Blue mage worked well, but so did ranged jobs. I'm sure any combination of physical DD would be just fine for this fight if there is a PUP and a pair of good geomancers.

Hell yeah. It'd been a while since I tanked the fight myself, but I didn't recall any hate resets during Hundred Fists either.

Of note is not so much the CE loss, as PUP doesn't really generate much CE, it's that it has an absolutely absurd amount on VE generation. Strobe 1+2OF post update along with enmity gear give like 195 enmity with triple fire. Typically you start triple fire and rotate a single light through until you can get back to triple fire(I do this five seconds before Strobe goes off) and use Repair to cover the down time. 5310 VE every 30 seconds (Not counting Flash and Shield Bash+Whatever other BS your puppet does) is pretty significant.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-23 07:49:29
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Nellarie said: »
I really think the "weird hate" issues people are running into on hundred fists might be related to Shedu's combination of 100 fists + enthunder, and the fact that he uses it so frequently. Because of the large chunks of damage the tanks are taking, they lose significant CE, which could be what is causing them to lose hate. Since the puppet had 4k HP and high regen, it didn't lose much CE at all, so Shedu stayed on my puppet. No hate resets.

No.

I've done this fight dozens upon dozens of times and he ignores hate during HF but once HF is over with he returns back to whomever had it anyway. With occultation I blink over 90% of his hits and with my other defensive buffs up along with barthunder / ect.. his hits aren't even that hard, yet he still wails away.

If you actually did what you claim, then it's possible his hate mechanics simply don't work on automatons. We've seen how pets can break some NM's enmity AI system.
 Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2016-03-23 08:15:05
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Asura.Saevel said: »
I've done this fight dozens upon dozens of times and he ignores hate during HF but once HF is over with he returns back to whomever had it anyway. With occultation I blink over 90% of his hits and with my other defensive buffs up along with barthunder / ect.. his hits aren't even that hard, yet he still wails away.

Did you notice any pattern to how it picked it's target? For example, did it always go after one of the blue mages when there was a tank? It's quite possible that it simply was ignoring whoever had the most enmity. If it would randomly go after the GEOs/COR and wreck them, the it truely is ignoring enmity.

That said, there are a lot of strange/neat things that happen when a PUP is in their own party by themselves tanking. Meteor, for example, does nothing.

Asura.Saevel said: »
If you actually did what you claim

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By Nellarie 2016-03-23 08:29:22
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Asura.Saevel said: »
If you actually did what you claim, then it's possible his hate mechanics simply don't work on automatons. We've seen how pets can break some NM's enmity AI system.


You may be right. I have only tried it using a pup tank, so I don't know if there are any noticeable enmity patterns with a paladin tank or no tank. Though if you're using no tank and just a bunch of blue mages, I would assume that he'd be more likely to bounce around as the DDs take damage during 100 fists since the Blue mages are probably around the same enmity level anyway.

But I don't know.. It would probably take someone smarter that me to figure that stuff out. I just know that when my puppet tanked it, my puppet kept hate during 100 fists, and he used it many times.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2016-03-23 08:45:34
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Nellarie said: »
I really think the "weird hate" issues people are running into on hundred fists might be related to Shedu's combination of 100 fists + enthunder, and the fact that he uses it so frequently. Because of the large chunks of damage the tanks are taking, they lose significant CE, which could be what is causing them to lose hate. Since the puppet had 4k HP and high regen, it didn't lose much CE at all, so Shedu stayed on my puppet. No hate resets.

No.

I've done this fight dozens upon dozens of times and he ignores hate during HF but once HF is over with he returns back to whomever had it anyway. With occultation I blink over 90% of his hits and with my other defensive buffs up along with barthunder / ect.. his hits aren't even that hard, yet he still wails away.

If you actually did what you claim, then it's possible his hate mechanics simply don't work on automatons. We've seen how pets can break some NM's enmity AI system.

Saevel is correct. In my 2 BLU scenario mentioned above, Shedu would ignore enmity and just HF one of the BLUs (usually one who was dealing less dmg) for no reason. If you were lucky enough to get 1-2 occultations up during this period and then bounce it back onto the other BLU, you may survive. I have never seen Shedu do HF and then go after the COR or mages, always seemed to be one of the melee smacking it. You'd think if it was true hate reset, he'd go after mages as well.

Either way, grats. Thanks for inviting me to your group. really appreciate it....
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2016-03-23 08:55:38
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Saevel is correct. In my 2 BLU scenario mentioned above, Shedu would ignore enmity and just HF one of the BLUs (usually one who was dealing less dmg) for no reason. If you were lucky enough to get 1-2 occultations up during this period and then bounce it back onto the other BLU, you may survive. I have never seen Shedu do HF and then go after the COR or mages, always seemed to be one of the melee smacking it. You'd think if it was true hate reset, he'd go after mages as well.

That pretty much tells me what is going on. During Hundred Fists, Shedu is ignoring whoever is at the top of his enmity list. It's designed specifically to make you bring two tanks. Plenty of fights out there like that. Chances are pretty good that when it goes to pick it's second target, it's scanning only the party of the person who has the highest enmity. Since there is only one target in the party, the enmity ignoring effect doesn't go off. Sounds weird, but there are other instances where NMs will only do things to a target party. That's my guess anyway.

Easy way to test that out would be to plant a Paladin/Rune in his own party and see what happens. Bring a second one along and see if hate always shifts to the secondary tank, or if it still stays on the solo tank.
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-03-23 09:09:56
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Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Did you notice any pattern to how it picked it's target?
No pattern.
It usually went for the DDs but at times it would go for me (either BRD or GEO) or the WHM, sometimes it oneshotted the COR etc.

Either they patched Shedu or Automatons for some reason break his gimmick.
 
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By Nellarie 2016-03-23 09:57:16
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Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Since there is only one target in the party, the enmity ignoring effect doesn't go off. Sounds weird, but there are other instances where NMs will only do things to a target party. That's my guess anyway.

This might actually be what is happening! Now that I think back to when I first attempted Shedu, it did seem like hate would sometimes go bonkers during 100 fists. We did that attempt with 6 people in one party.

I was in my own party last night. So if it's targeting the second highest on the hate list in the party, that would explain why we're seeing different things.

We may try testing it. I think either putting another tank job in their own party, and also trying 2 tanks in one party might both be good experiments to see what happens during 100 fists!
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-03-25 11:45:59
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Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Saevel is correct. In my 2 BLU scenario mentioned above, Shedu would ignore enmity and just HF one of the BLUs (usually one who was dealing less dmg) for no reason. If you were lucky enough to get 1-2 occultations up during this period and then bounce it back onto the other BLU, you may survive. I have never seen Shedu do HF and then go after the COR or mages, always seemed to be one of the melee smacking it. You'd think if it was true hate reset, he'd go after mages as well.

That pretty much tells me what is going on. During Hundred Fists, Shedu is ignoring whoever is at the top of his enmity list. It's designed specifically to make you bring two tanks. Plenty of fights out there like that. Chances are pretty good that when it goes to pick it's second target, it's scanning only the party of the person who has the highest enmity. Since there is only one target in the party, the enmity ignoring effect doesn't go off. Sounds weird, but there are other instances where NMs will only do things to a target party. That's my guess anyway.

Easy way to test that out would be to plant a Paladin/Rune in his own party and see what happens. Bring a second one along and see if hate always shifts to the secondary tank, or if it still stays on the solo tank.

That's not what it's doing, it's usually bouncing between me, the RUN and the other BLU. It's not reseting hate as after HF it jumps back to the RUN (our RUN has an Ergon and is godly) it's just acting like a gold fish, only remembering actions for a few seconds. It's not "ignoring the top" because otherwise it would always 100% be swinging at me, which it isn't. If the COR melee's then it'll swing at them occasionally. It's acting more like it has a second hate list that's very short and people are constantly sliding off it. More like super enmity decay or just hitting whomever last acted on it during it's last enmity update.

I could see the PUP's robot screwing with it due to Shedu's AI not the designers not expecting that scenario.
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By Phoenix.Mikumaru 2016-04-14 08:18:06
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Hey guys, we fought this thing 10 times the past 2 days and are trying to formulate a strategy that doesn't revolve around a zerg. We haven't wiped yet, or even come close, we just can't deal enough damage. GEO definitely seems to be a necessity. Our observations from the 10 timed out fights are: 1.)Weird hate during HF, we've countered it with the PLD using Sentinel but it isn't 100% effective 2.) Definitely has -MDT and most likely elemental resistance so must be TP burned. In reading this post I have noticed that the non BLU DD are either RNG COR or THF making me wonder if it has a piercing vulnerability. Did your BLUs notice if piercing spells did better consistent damage versus blunt/slashing? During our runs we used SMN as the main source of damage (our SMNs aren't nirvana but are 2100Jp and decently geared) but failed to ever get it below 40%. We never had a GEO which we know we need at least 1. Would a GEO be the lynch pin we need for victory?