Old Shuck Gimmick

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old shuck gimmick
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 Odin.Terren
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By Odin.Terren 2016-03-10 13:56:19
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Note: this is more to figure out Old Shuck's gimmick. There are lots of working strategies, mostly zerg-based. Not interested in that here.

In short, I get hung up on some of these tricks with NMs.

I'd like to know what procs white on Old Shuck, what the white proc does, what people have observed of his weirdass behavior and levelling-up.

Things my group has observed (not proven):

1. Spirit's Within triggered white proc and seemed to remove the flash-spikes when executed while Shuck was using Lava Spit (possibly any TP move). This *did not* de-level him.

2. He only uses Ululation once, at the start of the fight. I've observed this over a dozen fights now and never seen him repeat this TP move.

3. He frequently first howls and levels up after Ululation.

4. Spike damage might trigger an instant level-up. We saw him howl and level-up immediately after taking 10k+ CDCs three times in a row.

5. Silence does not prevent him from levelling up (I wondered if it was like the Delve wolf, where you have to silence him to prevent Plenilune Embrace - a move in which he howls).

6. He only seems to level up 5 times max.

7. Under unknown conditions, he'll start taking 'normal' damage again, though his evasion doesn't seem to go away.

Any other observations? I'd like to solve this puzzle, it's annoying.
 Bismarck.Indigla
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By Bismarck.Indigla 2016-03-11 07:52:14
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The one time our group cleared this we used Tachi: Shohas to proc this NM repeatedly. Magic damage continued to rise as his HP got lower so that just might be unavoidable though, the procs seemed to only reset evasion/defense.

I have tried Tachi: Shoha with others that were not nearly as well geared/buffed to try to repeat the procing effect, but it didn't work so there might be some minimum damage requirement too. Going to try this NM again soon so if I notice anything new I'll post about it.
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By Ramyrez 2016-03-11 07:56:26
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I don't know if there's a minimum damage requirement, and it's true that my playtime pales in comparison to the old days so my JP isn't maxed so if there is a damage bar it's conceivable I'm not hitting it.

But I have 5/5 Shoha and respectable, if not ideal, gear. And I couldn't proc this puppy for ***.

We still were killing it, but procs were a no with Shoha.
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2016-03-11 08:54:20
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Have used bst and smn both to kill this. Each Had at one point or another done a !! white proc and always around the tp move window. Not sure if any random damage spike or just being hit within that animation did it. Melee not able to hit very well aside from our Rdm at the time fully buffed so not able to tell about that aspect.
 Bismarck.Indigla
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By Bismarck.Indigla 2016-03-11 09:15:40
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Went back to look at logs, procs were mentioned after Shoha's. I'm wondering maybe if it's related to the day perhaps vs the skillchain properties on the attack used. Might just be some random damage type you have to find since the OP said Spirits Within proc'd for them and that doesn't even have any skillchain properties or affinity with any element afaik.
 Odin.Terren
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By Odin.Terren 2016-03-11 12:57:34
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Thanks for the replies Ramyrez, Brotherhoo, Indigla.

We're gonna run a round of tests tonight. It sounds like the common factor is a WS during a TP move causing the proc.

I had wondered about skillchain properties, since apparently Fragmentation will break the heads on the T2 hydra, but yeah, Spirits has no SC properties.

I don't think the amount of damage is a factor - one of our Spirit's that proc'd by our pld was very low damage.

Ramyrez - did you have hate when you used Shoha? Indigla did your SAM have hate when he proc'd with Shoha?

I'm wondering if it has to be the hate target. On our procs, it was our PLD that triggered with Spirits.

Shuck also has a hate mechanic, where it will ignore the tank and go after the 'back line' until the tank acts on it. This might be a clue that enmity is a factor in getting a proc.

Perhaps only the target of the TP move can proc with a WS?

An enmity reset would allow another member of the party to proc if the tank was unable (ie; no tp). It'd make sense for SE to include something like that if the hate-target-proc rule is true.
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By Ramyrez 2016-03-11 13:15:38
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Odin.Terren said: »
Ramyrez - did you have hate when you used Shoha?

Don't think I ever really had hate, unless it was during said hate-shedding mechanic and I was first to act on it. In any case I don't think we saw one white proc in several kills.
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2016-03-11 13:18:37
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If you have a glowy GK sam have them use that and try to see if its like "Non ele ws" or "Spirit damage" aka chi blast and Spirits. main issue ive seen is accuracy being sub par to hit it outside of floord %
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By Phoenix.Libbien 2016-03-11 13:21:20
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Well if it helps we did this twice last night as blu geo geo cor with 2 whm trust. With capped haste and AM3 going I was spamming cdc/tanking non stop. In 2 fights, i never saw a proc so i dont think its as simple as the person with hate using a ws during a tp move as Id find it highly unlikely that not 1 cdc went off during a tp move. We were fighting on the right side, during both fire/earthday for whatever that might be worth lol. Cant think of anything else specific about our conditions during the fight that might be helpful.
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 Odin.Terren
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By Odin.Terren 2016-03-11 13:45:46
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Phoenix.Libbien said: »
Well if it helps we did this twice last night as blu geo geo cor with 2 whm trust. With capped haste and AM3 going I was spamming cdc/tanking non stop. In 2 fights, i never saw a proc so i dont think its as simple as the person with hate using a ws during a tp move as Id find it highly unlikely that not 1 cdc went off during a tp move. We were fighting on the right side, during both fire/earthday for whatever that might be worth lol. Cant think of anything else specific about our conditions during the fight that might be helpful.

It's conceivable there's a damage mechanic involved - I did notice when I CDC'd for 13-15k on our attempts, hate or no-hate, I didn't proc, but it did seem to level up right afterwards on three occasions.

In terms of "sides" we've messed around a fair bit with this. You can be on the feet or directly in front and avoid scorching lash.

That being said - if you're using Trusts, the positioning seems twitchy. We got lashed even though it appeared the trusts were in the right position - a bug I suspect with terrain and elevation.

Either way we're gonna test some stuff tonight, see if I can sort anything out clearly.
 Odin.Terren
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By Odin.Terren 2016-03-11 23:16:21
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Well, a few tries tonight, didn't really learn anything.

We saw no procs - spirits, etc... didn't proc anything, during a TP move or otherwise.

That being said, there were a few occasions where damage increased to 'normal' or 'half normal', and the flash spikes stopped inflicting flash.

We also noted that if no WSs were used, it extends the window until the first level up - about 90 seconds or so, maybe 2 minutes. It could be a percentage thing however. He might just start levelling up at 80% hp or something like that.

Accuracy was dropped to almost nothing once he was levelled up, and the spikes could ruin WS. There'd be windows where acc would be back to normal, but I don't know what criteria caused that.

Tried a variety of WSs with different skillchain properties but again, nothing conclusive.
 Bismarck.Indigla
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By Bismarck.Indigla 2016-03-12 09:18:41
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I don't remember if the SAMs had hate or not. I guess it's possible , but we were all hugging it so it wouldnt move and the pld could get hate back easily. As for positionining we had positioned tank in front of it, SAMs were on front left side just a bit ahead of the mid section to avoid tail lash from happening.

We did wipe at one point not realizing the magic damage was continuing to rise. The orientation of the NM changed and I think the SAMs switched sides too for whatever that's worth, but we still got a proc with shoha after the wipe and finished it off.

Wish I took note of what day of the week it was in case it's related to that element.

I'm starting to wonder if it's just a random weakness it has when it pops and you need to find it after a level up or if it's based on something like game day or time of game day when you pop it like abyssea mob weaknesses.
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2016-03-12 18:52:31
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This all leads me to think that the gimmick is more of a skillchain property thing. CDC light side while something like Shoha is ??? id would be nice to have 12 dd all with diff WS ready to go, have 1 group do light next to dark, next to all t2 sc next do t1's back and forth until can eliminate that. Could also be a window based around those tp moves where !! can be procd like some abyssea Nms have a cool down window once procd. Any number of things can be eliminated with a bit of testing while others outright I'll assume (magic damage and sch skillchains) are not it. anywho been drinking and not sure what i was going to say after that
 Odin.Terren
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By Odin.Terren 2016-03-12 21:17:32
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Got a proc with either spirits or decimation > fusion while shuck was casting breakga. It seems completely random. It was Lightning day, btw.

That being said, soon after his spikes went away, evasion was normal and he started spamming Ululation. It's the only time I've seen him do that.

Skillchain properties seem likely, positioning may be a factor.

I'm wondering if the same proc mechanic is at work on Selkit, Old Shuck and Neak, since SE likes us to 'learn' things with each tier it seems.

Addendum:

Multiple procs with Spirits, but also with Requiescat. Frequently during Lava Spit, almost always interrupting a TP move. Seems to sometimes reset the level, at the very least, it removes the spikes.

We were fighting on light, dark and lightning days when we observed this. Spirits and Req are both non-elemental damage, so that might be a factor. Always our PLD that procs.

Additionally, multiple procs might increase damage taken. I had a bunch of 30k+ CDCs and Light SCs without any SPs used or extremely powerful buffs (powerful enough, but this was unusual)
 Odin.Aerroenu
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By Odin.Aerroenu 2016-03-13 00:17:01
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The PLD was in front of Old Shuck when those procs happened. Happened once during casting, too. Damage did not seem to be a factor since Spirits Within would proc between 100-500 and Requiescat hit barely 75.
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By Creaucent Alazrin 2016-03-13 06:31:59
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Looks like no one mentioned that it is a Cerberus type mob not sure if people have forgotten but they have a natural mechanic with the type of damage that's done to them. If you use physical damage it's PDT- will begin to go up and it will take more magical damage if you then use magical damage it will make its PDT- lower. I believe it's the same if you have more magical damage on it.

The level up could be when there's a big jump in one of the two damage types causing it's PDT- or MDT- to go up a fair amount.
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 Odin.Terren
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By Odin.Terren 2016-03-14 14:32:52
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Creaucent Alazrin said: »
Looks like no one mentioned that it is a Cerberus type mob not sure if people have forgotten but they have a natural mechanic with the type of damage that's done to them. If you use physical damage it's PDT- will begin to go up and it will take more magical damage if you then use magical damage it will make its PDT- lower. I believe it's the same if you have more magical damage on it.

The level up could be when there's a big jump in one of the two damage types causing it's PDT- or MDT- to go up a fair amount.

I had forgotten - it's possible this is involved somewhere, but it doesn't follow my observations. Mostly magic always just seems crappy on him, even in an MB. We tried a few mixed-damage strats and didn't notice any significant change in magic damage, except going lower as he levelled up.

On our purely-melee wins, with Spirits/Req proc'ing, I tested magic damage using Anvil Lightning throughout the fights and never saw any increase, even when physical damage started spiking again.

We didn't have any ranged damage however, and the fact that non-elemental WSs seem to be getting a white proc, this is a interesting point to bring up, it could definitely be part of the 'logic' behind the gimmick.
 Odin.Terren
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By Odin.Terren 2016-03-14 14:44:45
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As a sort of round-up for my group's experiments, here's how we were able to get a ~5 minute win without using any SPs:

Party: PLD WHM GEO BLU BLU BRD (we also had some fast kills with a second party, GEO BLM)

GEO has Idris, WHM has Yagrush and the BRD is full-blown RME, all 2100, we're spoiled this way.

GEO and BRD used melee buffs/songs, though at times the GEO used some defensive buffs when Acheron got crazy (sometimes Shuck seems to spam this for a lot of damage)

BLUs were a full melee spellset build, accuracy around 1400 w/o food or buffs, 1700+ with buffs, spamming CDC and Savage, Sweeping Gouge for defense down, and Winds of Promy to help with the flash spikes.

(on that note ... Winds is not a surefire solution. Sometimes you'll cast it and flash will be right back up. it's just helpful if your blu or pld partners are WSing and you have a moment to use it)

BRD stayed back to handle sleepga/stona when it landed, otherwise everyone stood on the feet/sides with the PLD in front.

PLD tries to trigger white proc with Spirits/Requiscat, aiming for spells and Lava Spit (only because we seemed to get all our procs on Lava Spit, not sure that's a thing or not).

BLUs just go all-out on damage, rotating mighty guard.

And then you hope for the best.

On fights when we got multiple procs, it was over very quickly with little trouble.

If the procs didn't come, it would be much longer. You get some false hope when you drop Shuck down to 20% and then suddenly he levels up and flash spikes all over the place and the fight slows to a crawl.

Temp items, particularly wings, are very useful for those times when it slows to a crawl.

SPs would help but aren't necessary with some good luck.

In terms of melee accuracy, I think if you can hit 1400-1500 with buffs, and you're lucky on procs, you'll be fine. Once he levels up, even 1700 accuracy isn't really enough to compensate, so you gotta pray for those procs.

Good luck and thanks for the input everyone!
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 Bismarck.Indigla
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By Bismarck.Indigla 2016-03-16 18:59:35
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Just curious, on procs where Requiescat worked did it follow with darkness from a cdc before/after it? We were using that on the unity nm Sarama to get procs to happen which made it pretty easy to kill. Interesting if it's just a timing thing where you have to keep trying when it's doing an action, but can't help but feel it's magic type damage also having a hand in it even if it's non elemental or darkness.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2016-03-17 08:34:36
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Creaucent Alazrin said: »
Looks like no one mentioned that it is a Cerberus type mob not sure if people have forgotten but they have a natural mechanic with the type of damage that's done to them. If you use physical damage it's PDT- will begin to go up and it will take more magical damage if you then use magical damage it will make its PDT- lower. I believe it's the same if you have more magical damage on it.

The level up could be when there's a big jump in one of the two damage types causing it's PDT- or MDT- to go up a fair amount.
That's not an innate trait to cerberus mobs, the only monsters that happens on are the salvage ones. Real cerberus, nyzul cerberus, and the abyssea cerberii don't have this problem, nor does the t1 escha-zitah cerberus.

I've killed it a few times with sam & blu zergs, never seen a proc spamming fudo/cdc and light SCs. Probably is something to do with skillchain property.

Bit amusing that OP outright said they weren't interested in zergs, then conclude their posting by saying they zerg it and hope for the best.. as if it's a new strategy or anything.
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 Odin.Terren
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By Odin.Terren 2016-03-25 15:32:50
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Bismarck.Indigla said: »
Just curious, on procs where Requiescat worked did it follow with darkness from a cdc before/after it? We were using that on the unity nm Sarama to get procs to happen which made it pretty easy to kill. Interesting if it's just a timing thing where you have to keep trying when it's doing an action, but can't help but feel it's magic type damage also having a hand in it even if it's non elemental or darkness.

We didn't have SCs on our procs - we tried to isolate the PLD's WSs to see if we could figure out what was and wasn't working.

Done a few kills since and I still can't see a pattern or logic beyond what I laid out.
 Odin.Terren
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By Odin.Terren 2016-03-25 15:38:24
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
That's not an innate trait to cerberus mobs, the only monsters that happens on are the salvage ones. Real cerberus, nyzul cerberus, and the abyssea cerberii don't have this problem, nor does the t1 escha-zitah cerberus.

I've killed it a few times with sam & blu zergs, never seen a proc spamming fudo/cdc and light SCs. Probably is something to do with skillchain property.

Bit amusing that OP outright said they weren't interested in zergs, then conclude their posting by saying they zerg it and hope for the best.. as if it's a new strategy or anything.

I wasn't interested in starting a new thread where folks posted a bunch of zerg strategies - the purpose of the thread was to try to determine what proc's Shuck and what his gimmick was.

The bulk of what I learned, and what was contributed, was that non-elemental WS like Requiescat and Spirit's Within would sometimes proc on a TP move or spell, and that the proc would remove flash spikes, and often reset the damage reduction / level increase.

I posted our strategy, which wasn't new, is basically a zerg with procs, because it was successful, and there were other people in the thread also trying to find an efficient way to kill Shuck.

I'll note that most 'zerg' strategies posted previously in other threads for this mob involved using SP abilities and super-revits and using MMM to reset between kills.

The strategy I posted didn't require using SPs (entirely because we were getting procs) and could be done in 5 minutes without needing to reset.

I'm just trying to be helpful. I wasn't criticizing zerg strategies. I just wanted to find a reliable way to proc Shuck so a zerg involving SPs and revits and SP resets wasn't necessary.
 
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 Bismarck.Indigla
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By Bismarck.Indigla 2016-03-30 19:51:19
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Tried doing Old Shuck tonight using Requiescat/Spirits Within. Did not cause any procs at all when using it during TP moves or magic casts. Talked to a JP friend of mine who did similar with his LS after reading this thread and he had the same result, no procs using those WS on Shuck. Leaves me thinking it's either a random weakness of some kind or based on some kind of factor that's a mystery. Day, season, week, job, direction? I have no clue, but it doesn't seem consistent.
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 Asura.Pergatory
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By Asura.Pergatory 2016-06-17 12:31:49
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He is a dog... dogs are like wolves... wolves howl at the moon... trick is to pop him on new moon?!

Also Cerb has 3 heads, Half-Life 3 confirmed
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2016-06-17 13:36:32
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Tried this with smn x3 one got a proc with pred claw other got with ramuh both phy bp third never saw one out of 5 fights
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By Asura.Pergatory 2016-06-17 18:20:28
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Interesting, were those two procs on the same fight or different fights?

Predator Claws is slashing, while Ramuh's are all blunt, for what it's worth. Both can crit.
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 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2020-03-19 22:07:58
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So, does anyone know?
 
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 Bismarck.Nickeny
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By Bismarck.Nickeny 2020-03-19 22:48:27
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Hit it till its hp turns zero - keep your hp above zero - win
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