The 6th Ministry's Secret: A Summoner's Guide (v2)

you're not even saying the in-game impact is great, you're saying that you observed a large BP difference with extremely vague other factors involved.. and there's no need to try to express it as a percentage

60 base damage is a max of 4.0(avatar pdif cap) * ftp increase per hit

that means it's 240 damage per ftp if your avatar is attack capped on physical BPs, and 60 damage per 100 MAB on magical BPs(before burst bonus damage)

it's stronger than they're trying to imply on physical BPs(i don't think the exact ftp values are known, but they seem to be 15+ total, which would give it the ability to add 3600+ damage in ideal conditions), but non-hybrid magical don't really gain much from it

note that going from say 100 base damage to 105 base damage isn't a 5% increase in damage either, because stat mods(including dINT) are additive to base damage not multiplicative

This is not me being argumentative, this is me being inquisitive as now I am really confused. The left side of the damage equation for a weaponskill that gets added together, and then multiplied by all of the pdif and ftp 3 things (DMG + fSTR + WSC). So you are correct in that increasing the DMG by a certain % won't increase damage by the same amount, because fSTR and WSC won't be increasing.

My point is that it will still be going up by a significant enough percentage that the JP spend is a very good one. I don't know if the Avatar has base physical damage of 100 or 400. But either way adding 60 to it (and making the DMG in the above equation 160, or 460...or whatever depending on what the real dmg number is)is a big chunk of damage in a game where people go thru massive effort and expense to add what is often a very small amount of damage.

So this is the way I see it - what am saying that is wrong, or where is it off? He had said that 40 attack would be a better upgrade, and I simply can't see how that would be the case.

2nding this, demi-god status every 45 mins.


What Pergatory and Comeatmebro are saying is valid. Actually funny story, when the BP damage gifts came out they were tacked on to the end without multipliers and we had to report that and it got fixed. In otherwords a 20,000 damage bp became 20,060 damage, Papesse reported on this when they came out if you go back far enough in this thread (might even be the older guide thread). They fixed it though and now it applies as base damage. The impact you can see I understand I remember something similar. It will make more impact for lower base damage pacts like thunderspark than anything else it will also seem to do more if your gear is still developing. If you like them get them, the last half of job points are way easier to get than the first half anyway and no reason to not go all the way :D

Nothing you said in this post is inaccurate, this included. For physical blood pacts, 40 attack won't compare to 60 base damage in any realistic scenario. The other categories he mentioned are almost certainly better choices though, unless you use exclusively physical pacts.

So I've been away for a few months and now about to start buying HQ apogee pieces for my BP set. Which pieces are still worth getting now that af+2/+3 are a thing? Also, which af +2/+3 pieces should I be trying to get?

Personally I think head feet legs and body for apogeee +1 and af body +3, I have serious doubts about other AF pieces, head and legs get nice magic acc and look good for de buffs but

Agree but I think the head is also great for more max smn skill = longer wards, and it has 1 more max refresh. It also has pet haste, so you can now keep refresh for every slot in your avatar tp set where as before you'd have to sacrifice either hands or feet if you wanted to cap your avatars gear haste. Oh and the body lets you cap bp recast I with one piece >.> Feet are useful for a high acc physical set or if you don't have apogee +1 are a straight upgrade if pdif is capped. Hands and legs are least important but you can make them too if you so desire.

I got some Grioavolrs that were pretty close augment-wise besides one having INT+10 and the other having VIT instead, so it inspired me to do a little testing and napkin math. Sorry for the brain-dump.

The testing setup was on Fernfelling Chapulis in Ceizak, using Thunderstorm (5/5 merit) and Meteor Strike (1/5 merit) with 0 TP and no Ionis. I'll list the total multiplier with each test, which is MAB x BP Dmg accounting for job trait MAB, merits, job points, and gear. The staves have the following augments:

INT Grio = {'Blood Pact Dmg.+5','Pet: INT+10','Pet: Mag. Acc.+22','Pet: "Mag.Atk.Bns."+21',}
VIT Grio = {'Blood Pact Dmg.+3','Pet: VIT+12','Pet: Mag. Acc.+16','Pet: "Mag.Atk.Bns."+29',}


Test #1: Thunderstorm (INT with Enticer's)
Total multiplier: 10.3032
Damage: 22588
Base damage: 2192.3

Test #2: Thunderstorm (VIT with Enticer's)
Total multiplier: 10.374
Damage: 22350
Base damage: 2154.4

Test #3: Thunderstorm (INT with 13bpd/30mab legs)
Total multiplier: 10.9908
Damage: 21892
Base damage: 1991.8

Test #4: Thunderstorm (VIT with 13bpd/30mab legs)
Total multiplier: 11.0564
Damage: 21644
Base damage: 1957.6


Test #5: Meteor Strike (INT with Enticer's)
Total multiplier: 10.3032
Damage: 17687
Base damage: 1716.7

Test #6: Meteor Strike (VIT with Enticer's)
Total multiplier: 10.374
Damage: 17484
Base damage: 1685.4

Test #7: Meteor Strike (INT with 13bpd/30mab legs)
Total multiplier: 10.9908
Damage: 16703
Base damage: 1519.7

Test #8: Meteor Strike (VIT with 13bpd/30mab legs)
Total multiplier: 11.0564
Damage: 16485
Base damage: 1491.0


Now the fact that the base damage is coming up in fractions bothers me, but whatever the error is (if there is one), I still think the numbers make a useful comparison.

Observations:

I find the difference between Thunderstorm & Meteor Strike interesting. For Thunderstorm, base damage appears to increase by nearly 40 points from INT+10 (34.2 with MAB pants and 37.9 with Enticers). For Meteor Strike, the bonus is lower at 28.7 and 31.3 respectively. This gives us several data points.

0 TP = +28.7 base damage, this should be the actual increase from INT+10.
650 TP = +31.3 base damage (9.06% increase over 0 TP)
1600 TP = +34.2 base damage (19.16% increase over 0 TP)
2250 TP = +37.9 base damage (32.06% increase over 0 TP)

The full base damage with the INT staff at various TP values is:

0 TP = 1519.7
650 TP = 1716.7 (+12.96%)
1600 TP = 1991.8 (+31.07%)
2250 TP = 2192.3 (+44.26%)

Why is the boost so much larger to the overall damage of the BP than it is for the damage added by the INT? Don't know. Probably a result of my napkin math.

As for the INT itself, it would seem I got just shy of +3 base damage per INT on those Chapulis for what that's worth. Not a massive bonus, so I think that as people probably expected, INT should fall well below the other 3 stats for Merlinic (BP Damage > Pet:MAB > Pet:MAcc > Pet:INT). That said, it can still add meaningful damage at the top end, as you can see from my INT staff with slightly worse stats beating my VIT staff by over 200 damage with 5/5 Thunderstorm and Enticer's.

Anyone mind explaining the gear rationale for Flaming Crush to me? I am having a difficult time figuring out how to optimize it. My understanding if that its 2 physical hits, and 1 magical hit with the magical hit being based off the damage of the physical hits in someway. From looking at posted gearsets it seems people go near full MAB basically ingnoring the first two hits. Does the last hit still need ACC (can it miss?). It seems to be my strongest attack on weakish enemies (like Woh Gates Worms I solo on, Ambuscade Imps this month) so want to make sure I am getting the most out of it with the gears I have.

I have a piece for magical and physical BPs in most slots, just trying to figure out what should be in and out for Flaming Crush. Thanks all.

Nirvana works best as staff for flaming crush.

My rule of thumb is BP damage > MAB >= Attack

If you have a choice between say AF+1 body and apogee +1 body, for example, apogee+1 body wins because it has a lot of mab and bp damage both. Nirvana also wins over Grio, part of this is likely that it counts on "both sides" of the equation while also giving attack, accuracy and magic acc and attributes.

This is my hybrid set:

My legs are path D, A could win though never tested it directly just my own eyeballing and memory. Feet are A. I usually combine this with kusamochi food (attack food), and remember warcry and dia 2 and garland or other def down options. BST + PUP roll, Frailty + Malaise or sub one of those for languor if it's not performing well.

Just remember as hard as it scales up and starts doing big numbers it will also scale down just as fast if you didn't meet ALL of the requirements:

* Physical Attack vs Mob Def (def downs dia and frailty and others, attack food, warcry, bst roll, am2)
* Magical Attack vs Mob Magic Def (pup roll, malaise, dispel shell V, tearing gust or shattersoul, RUN gambit)
* Physical Accuracy vs Mob Evasion (drachen roll, accuracy foods, torpor, am1, pet TP, distract I-III)
* Magical Accuracy vs Mob Magical Evasion and Fire Resistance and Special Defense (frazzle I-III, languor, threnody, RUN rayke)
* Mob can't have strong PDT or MDT properties

All those requirements and being able to boost damage with AM3 nirvana is one reason physical bps are really popular right now though Flaming Crush is still good if you buff for it and/or are on low enough content.

Edit: Listed buffs are what can help "fix" those stats not requirements to actually use flaming crush, more "as needed"

For Flaming Crush, I use a similar build to Verda's. Basically treat it like a magic BP except on the cape and legs.

Here's the goodies for this update.

SMN Exclusive:

Was
DMG:238 Delay:366 Accuracy+20 Attack+20 Staff skill +242 Parrying skill +242 Magic Accuracy skill +188 Avatar perpetuation cost -5 Avatar: Accuracy+50 "Blood Pact" damage +20

Was +1
DMG:239 Delay:356 Accuracy+25 Attack+25 Staff skill +242 Parrying skill +242 Magic Accuracy skill +188 Avatar perpetuation cost -7 Avatar: Accuracy+55 "Blood Pact" damage +25

SMN Equipable but not SMN Specific:

Ames
DMG:141 Delay:216 INT+25 MND:+25 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+16 Magic Damage+124 Club skill +242 Parrying skill +242 Magic Accuracy skill +215 "Cure" potency +24% "Refresh"+1

Ames +1
DMG:142 Delay:210 INT+30 MND:+30 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+16 Magic Damage+124 Club skill +242 Parrying skill +242 Magic Accuracy skill +215 "Cure" potency +26% "Refresh"+1

How do we feel about this new staff for physical BPs if one does not have nirvana?

It's likely going to be the best staff for physical BPs, for non Nirvana users of course.
By the same logic it should be inferior to other options (Keraunos/Grio/Espiritus) for magical BPs.

Not sure for stuff like Flaming Crush. I say this new staff wins for Crush as well.

Might aswell do nirvana, cost less for sure.

Less than HQ? Probably, altough you should evaluate the time you need to spend for the other trials, and when you convert time:money...
Regardless, Nirvana is so much better.

But I was kinda talking about the NQ. Noway the NQ is gonna cost as much as a Nirvana in both gil and time terms.

You think so, Geigei? Things will probably be the usual stupid expensive and then plummet to the 1~5M range.

As for the use... it could probably beat out Keraunos for both phys and hybrid.
I'd want to test it and compare using real data... but 20 BPdmg should even out for the loss of 4~6%DA or 100MAB.
Almost a WSdmg v TA/DA for CdC comparison... but BPdmg isn't applied to the first hit alone, so this quite likely will win out.

(Though obvs Nirvana is better. It always will be. But this is almost a half-Nirvana.)

Yea i was refering to hq version, as long as ppl continue not to get banned for dupes/gil buying those hq will have a stupid cost.
Nq is indeed a solid choice for not career smn's.

For physical BPs with carrying ftp, if we are to assume you get a DA chance for every hit of the blood pact, gridarvor crushes Was+1.

If you assume you get a max of 2 chances to DA, gridarvor still wins in most scenarios.

If you assume you get 1 chance to DA per BP(pretty sure this can be easily disproven), it's close.

I have mixed feelings about the new staff other than to say it's the Wal-mart version of Nirvana. It's good for up and coming SMN's looking to do the bare minimum to get into today's content, but unwilling to step over the line into what's fully required to be a properly geared end game SMN.

I looked over my logs for VD Ambu last month. I do about 15.5k to a level zero mob per hit and about 14k per hit in VD ambu. I saw a lot of 42k Volt Strikes and a few 56k ones, but the only time I saw a 70k one was if I used Am3. I never saw over 70k unless I conduit + AF. I've done old shuck a lot too with am3 up and never seen anything over what I'd expect (88k max, doing about 17.6k per hit with vorseal + buffs + af + conduit). OAT could follow diff rules but then there's the ambu.

If you want to try to force a test for it, Helios DA augs and Gridavor, if you could get 50% DA you'd see DA proc twice in 1 in 4 bps on average.

I spoke to some non mythic/non career SMN in game the other day. They had about 70 BP dmg and 1200 attack using Gridavor. If DA only attacks once, with stats like that, Was is a winner in both pdif and non pdif capped situations and even more so for Was +1. If DA is once like I think then you'd need 3 conditions to hold true:
1) only use 3 hit pdif carry bps, volt strike is one so that's ok.
2) have a lot of bp damage
3) don't be pdif capped

I think that's a bit niche because for 2) if you have a ton of bp dmg gear from hq gears you're prob looking at nirvana anyway. For 3) finding a geo + cor isn't too steep a price to pay for the huge increase in damage it provides.

If you do test please share your results I'd be interested. My DA rate is only 4% + any native DA avatars have so seeing it could just be unlikely and OAT could just be different than DA in how many times it procs. I still think once is the most likely answer though.


I understand what you mean, I think that mid range SMN was lacking in options however. That actually didn't do SMN as a job any favors because people will group up with non career SMN and think it just sucks, and the players can't really see the finish line and get discouraged if the differences are too huge and then SMN gets a reputation for being hard to make work and/or gear. Evening out the progression line is a good thing for SMN as a job, imo as long as it doesn't aid bandwagon behavior or something in the future.

For the extra attack thing, I think what needs to be considered is not necessarily can it go off twice or thrice, but does it have multiple chances to go off once. So on say Volt Strike, if you have 20% Double Attack, and the first attempt does not roll a double attack - does the 2nd hit get a chance to, and then the third? Or does the roll only happen once on the first attack?

Also I kind of have to disagree with with this Mythic or scrub mentality. I don't like to suck at anything I do, I put in what work I can to understand job capabilities and gear and JP as best as I can. My BP timers are capped, I am about 300 JP in and rising - rocking Gridarvor/Espiritus and some Apogee/Enticers/Merlinic hands w/ BP+10.

I have done a bunch of Reisenjima T1, RuAnn 1-3, and last months Ambuscade 1. My BPs are hitting 15-40k and party members are happy with my performance - no one is looking at me and saying SMN sucks.

If I brought my SMN to Kirin/WoC, or further Reisenjima than yeah I would suck as that's content above my current capabilities on SMN -but no job with 300JP should really be showing up at those. But there is a whole lot of game that's not that - and you have to be able to play the game while working on a Mythic which for a lot of players is a considerable time and gil investment.

Also - and this is non scientific, but I have 22% Double Attack - and it certainly seems like it goes off way more than 22% of the time. But I also have not noticed damage that would seem like it fired off twice. I am inclined to believe if the roll fails, it gets rolled again on subsequent weaponskill attacks but then stops if it lands. If this is true, it would favor Gridarvor over pretty much anything non mythic, unless the Reisenjima one can roll Pet Double Attack.

not going to farm and augment a helios set just to test it, but even if you assume it's only 1 chance per BP and using incarnation sash you're still getting 4.9% damage out of the double attack component

assume you have 70 bpd(which is pretty horrible, must be some very new smns you're talking about), a nq was gives 11.7% damage and a hq gives 14.7%

1.117 / 1.049 = 6.48% favor of NQ
1.147 / 1.049 = 9.34% favor of HQ

1200/1130(your friend had 1200 with grid) is 6.19% damage from attack if uncapped

gridarvor has 40/45 more accuracy, which is often a commodity

if capped acc, can drop shiramochi for akamochi or drop drachen roll for something other party members would benefit from or swap gear

if below capped acc(and I was below capped acc on flayer amb with drachen roll, entrust torpor, and gridarvor), it's an easy victory to grid

so it's like i said, if only 1 chance per BP it's close.. if you're truly acc/att capped and there's nothing of worth to swap elsewhere then Was NQ/HQ will win but otherwise it's almost certain that gridarvor is better

as far as how the DA actually works, it's well accepted that player weaponskills can DA at least twice and there's never been proof that AM3 can proc twice.. so i'd say looking at it logically it makes more sense that they would be able to, but would come down to testing and it's a lot of grunt work to do

Ya I don't wanna test it either D: That's an expensive test. Thanks for your input though I understand your pov. I guess it will remain a ? until someone decides to test it.

That would be significant too but doing the same expensive helios test would likely show which is true.

If it can go off multiple times per weaponskill - that would be hard, difficult and expensive to test. A lot of high end SMN in this thread though are stating they haven't noticed it. But to see if it has multiple chances to go off once? That would be the difference of me have an extra attack go off 22%, or 66% (on a 3hitter). That should be pretty easy with even non a great sample size. I already use Kparser so can easily track damage of each BP. And I can take off my regain neck and try and write down the TP return. Gimme a suggestion for a mob - it has to be one that lives through a non extra attack BP. Also - BP - need one that xfers FTP but doesn't crit - Ecliplse Bite? I can get to it this evening.

Edit: the more I think about this, I don't even think it would be difficult to show that it could go off multiple times in the same weaponskill. If it can, I'd have at least a 4% chance now to do it as is. If I went and did 50 BPs in a controlled buffless environment, and one had 10TP more of a return and hit harder than the rest - it's verified that it's possible. The bigger challenge would be finding the mob that coudl live through a 4hit one to allow for a 5hit to happen that you can safely and efficiently test on.

I confirm that DA can indeed proc twice on multi-hits BPs and that it's possible to get DA+AM3 proc. I haven't been able to go beyond the 8 hits cap with Rush.

cool thanks Papesse :D

With that in mind, was becomes extremely limited in usefulness. Only viable on pacts that don't carry ftp, of which I don't believe there are any that are currently worth using.

Does this mean Gridarvor is the best Physical BP staff, regardless of Wes and Wes+1?

edit:
I meant aside from Nirvana of course