Relic Weapon Adjustments

lol if you think a Fudo spamming Tsu sam is anywhere near the same ballpark as an Izh Thf right now.

30% on a good day, 50% is just no.

This is what I don't get .. there is nothing fundamentally special about Shark dagger. Nothing in this update changed it, its the exact same it has been since iLevel update. It doesn't grant THF any special extra damage. Tsuru happens to be from the exact same NM and is no more "bandwagon" worthy then Izh. And yeah nothing about this update reduced the OP that was Fudo light spam. 2 SAM's spamming Fudo will constantly make light off each other other WS, it's a nonstop barrage of lights.

It's like you think that ever WS a THF does is 3000TP stacked RS or something and that nothing else is happening.

Depends, how much HP does it have? If it's got 100~150K or less then the SAM + THF could probably kill it faster if they both start off at 3000TP. Over 200~250K HP or both starting at 0TP and things are a bit different.


No Yorcia is just one zone that happens to cater to slashers and light SCs. Just like Bee / Bird cater to piercing and darkness's similiar to how that Unity Golem NM caters to forming double SCs. This is just a generic comparison to any MB fight where you have two or three buffed melee's and there are no special damage mechanics in play.

Most of this is just overhype Rudras. People see screenshots of 2500~3000TP stacked RS's and are flipping tables without realizing that only happens every ~30s with an amazing THF, much longer without, and only by saving up TP. Previously I demonstrated how 1000TP RS is kinda weak compared to other WS's, it's only when you stack it at 2000+ TP that it gets eye poping. Evis and PK actually do better if JA's aren't up due to their fTP transferring across all hits.

Also spreadsheets are not useful for determining "best" DD because too much relies on context and mechanics. They are useful for determining best when comparing gear A vs gear B on the same job, that was their entire purpose. As for your first statement, THF + SAM would be a shitty combo because the SAM ends up being handicapped trying to accommodate the THF. Pair SAM up with another job that has a powerful WS with L3 light property or at least Gravitation property.

Been reading your perspective and understand what you're saying but in comparison if you have two DDs only. 1 Koga SAM and 1 Izhiikoh THF, it is extremely possible for the THF to outparse the Koga let alone make a Tsuru SAM look extremely bad. Assuming both are premier players that Koga will find it hard to win against Izhiiko. I agree tho there is nothing special about shark dagger other than the DEX on it and Rudra's itself is pretty strong now. Same scenerio cept Vajra vs Koga and Koga I imagine would look not so great.
If you had x2 Vajra and no other DD same buffs as x2 Koga the THFs could have a bully order and not even move behind target to minimize chaos and confusion spamming 1000tp and TA rotation. At this point in time it's hard for me to think that x2 Vajra Darkness spam could not duplicate and even excede the combined dps of x2 Koga with thier Light spam.

Keep going though guys! I hope someone tells a Koga SAM to go BRD and makes more spots for me soon. OP OP OP OP!!!!!!!

Tsuru would easily beat the Izh THF in a full blown DPS race. Like I mentioned earlier, you can't break someone's legs then claim your a better runner then them. RS is still sh!t at 1000TP, we demonstrated the math earlier. Evis is what you would be using, though it might be better to save up to 1750~2000TP for RS. During that same time the SAM has already gotten off 3~4 Fudo's depending on buffs with two self SC's. It's a situation where sheer volume wins out. SA and TA are on 50s timers, one per 25s max with 30s being the average unless the THF is really bad at timing their TP gain and end up sitting at 3000TP waiting on timers.

As for Koga, Koga is only about 11% better then Tsuru under optimal circumstances, in SoA they are just about dead even. People really need to stop worshiping that weapon, it's Fudo + Store TP V / Skillchain Bonus / Zanhasso / Overwhelm that makes SAM OP. Averaged of 6500 every 3~5s. If you give them misers roll then it's no contest, they never stop WSing with something like a 95/5 split. The most bandwagon of the bunch can just push Fudo over and over since it links with itself and all those WS's start putting out light to the tune of one light every 2 WS's and due to SC bonus those 6500 Fudo's create a 7540 light, which is how a bandwagon SAM would get 30% of their damage from SC. A ~good~ SAM will start multi-stepping, each additional WS adds 50% to the final SC multiplier for L3 SC's. 4 part light would be 200% damage before SC bonus for 15K damage, on an averaged Fudo. SAM's are the worst class about overtping from multi-procs, especially with misers. They frequently WS at 1500TP not because they are slow but because their attack round just gave them 750 TP, so all those numbers are conservative estimates and are less then what a SAM would really see.

I like that THF is now a competitive DD, it's about time considering how long everyone treated them as "TH ***". Lets not start deluding ourselves into thinking it's suddenly better then everyone else. Just because I break Usain Bolt's legs before running a race doesn't mean I get to go around claiming I'm faster then him and asking for all his trophy's.

As soon as you throw any non-SAM DD in the mix throw out the self skillchains unless you are willing to handcuff everyone else so the SAM can throw around his epeen.

that isn't entirely correct since fudo sc's with just so many other ws. It's all about "are you catering to sc damage or aren't you" You really don't have to. I'm one of those who delight in ruining a thief trying to set up a perfect darkness etc.

Yea i'm "that guy" lol

Except almost every other high end DD has light compatible WS's. VS, Torc, BR, CDC, and the list continues. They don't need to change anything, just play like they normally play and lights will naturally happen. It's the presence of a Darkness / Distortion member that screws up everyone else's SC's. I listed all this earlier in the thread which you obviously didn't bother to read.

DNC can do a two-step or three-step self-darkness (Exenterator -> Evisceration -> Rudra's or Pyrrhic Kleos) for THF to close.

Samurai can similarly do a multi-step self-darkness for THF to close.

It's worth doing multi-step skillchains if you're going to close it with a 3000 TP Rudra's Storm, because the more steps there are in your skillchain the higher the skillchain damage gets. Also, it evens out the TP rates between the different jobs. So if you're going to have THF use a 3000 TP WS, you might as well have your opening job use at least 3 WSs too. The only reason to go lower is if you suspect that you're not going to be able to finish the multi-step WS (Incursion without stunners or something).



Again, saying that THF "outparses" other jobs in this situation attributes all of the closing WS damage and the resulting skillchain to THF. If you distribute some of the skillchain credit to the opener, it's harder to say that THF outparsed them.

BLU does the same thing with CA CDC -> Sinker. This is actually what I often do when I'm partied with a THF. Utilizing SC's is frequently a good strategy and I encourage anyone to do so, especially if they have a powerful closer like a THF present. My beef is with everyone attributing all that SC damage to the THF, then saying it "outparses" and "sh!ts on" a handicapped DD. Fudo -> Kasha -> Rana -> Fudo -> stacked RS would create a SC that dwarfs everyone's damage. Attributing that solely to the THF is silly, especially since the SAM was the one who set it up and made it possible (or DNC / BLU).

In a straight DPS contest SAM easily beats THF due to the reasons I mentioned earlier. Working together is usually a better strategy but that doesn't diminish the power of the SAM. THF is a powerful SC closer for when you want a single powerful darkness SC. They aren't suddenly "the best DD in the game".

This is more the point however, people like spamming WS's, they don't like to wait, it's the whole I WANT IT NOW Mentality.

How about we give each RME a reusable item usage, like Warp Cudgel, with a 20 minute reuse timer, or a "job ability/spell" attached to it, like Twilight Cloak, and call it Antiques Surge". It forces the next appropriate Attack to gain the bonus damage.

So what if this would break a few jobs, like Ranger being able to force Annihalator prof on Barrage

Except that outside of a few situations, spamming powerful WS ends up being the best option. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much focus on x-hit amongst the various DDs. Jobs like THF create a situation where closing a powerful SC actually becomes viable. SAM does this naturally, the most HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE bandwagon SAM only needs to push one button every 5s, while having someone else write their gearswap, and they will produce a high volume of SCs.

If you don't like this write a letter to the SE developer staff who created these game mechanics. Maybe stand outside their headquarters with a big sign demanding a change. Organize a sit in where you, and a bunch of the other disgruntled and disillusioned players refuse to budge from the entrance to their building until they change the code. All of those will have a greater impact then spewing useless nonsense trying to blame the playerbase for finding the shortest distance between two points.

"Occasionally casts warp on random party member" with a proc rate of ~0.5-1%

hitting fudo > fudo isn't the best DPS route, my point was in a party of 3 DD's sc's wont be as "common" as you make out if people are spamming.

so no long ago you used to think skill chaining was unimportant now you are defending it. wow, is it possible to bandwagon a play tactic

.

It's worse if THF opt to 5/5 triple attack rate in that category.

In that case you could only merit 1 down to 50 seconds or split the remaining merits between them. In reality its probably in the range of 32-35 seconds average under ideal conditions. Much worse under less than ideal conditions (hate capped, mobs spinning, DDs randomly just moving around, etc)

Ideal conditions aren't going to last long if you constantly SAWS on recast either.

More like NOT spamming WS in 90% of the situations is a net loss in dps.

The few situations where skillchains improve damage are part of a NM mechanic and then its often Light. Now if thf wants to close thats awesome, but it won't become the norm. Hell SAM does not even get to self SC anymore unless:

They time themselves between others WS
They bich n whine till the other DD give in.
Normally a light SC is a staple and easier to achieve chain.

Thf is much more buffed now, but it is not doing any of these crazy things like stomping koga SAM, in an equal situation.

The thf vs koga sam debate needs to stop.

NO A KOGA SAM CAN NOT BEAT PROPER GEARED THF.



This was just one of the times I have gone with koga sams.
This is delve run on Tojil only, if I kept full parse sam would be much further behind in dmg.

Why should Thf hold back so a sam can spam a few ws and get some sc when a much faster fight would be sam catering to the thf instead? Koga sam can still self sc in between catering ws to thf. Sam catered ws > thf ws > sam self sc > sam catering ws to thf > thf ws repeat.
I have done delve and high tier bcnm with koga sam while I was on thf. EVERY TIME I WIN. Not by a small amount either. I keep seeing debates on, "It's the dagger," "It's rudra."
It is both and more, THF has white dmg, attacks fast as hell, can control hate (I personally went 5/5 TA was well worth it), do MASSIVE dmg with rudra.
Thf might only be popping 30k+ rudra every 30 & 45 seconds, but thf can still pop 10k+ rudra without. (Even only ws at 150% with moonshade nets 12k+ for me.)
Some might argue that the koga sam's I have run into are bad sam's. Ok fine, but even still, it can be argued that the thf's you all have been running into are bad thf's.

I know on Asura it is filled with 5/5 reforge thf's wearing sandung. Nobody has acc sets, -pdt sets, pops 300% sneak attack rudra like a bunch of idiots, dead thf can't DD. I wouldn't doubt those are the thf's you are running into as well. I have followed Valli gearsets and talked to him about gear. Since then my dmg has gone WAY up.

Lastly, thf dmg is here to stay it isn't getting nerfed, but won't remain top DD for long.

2 hand ws update

Show me a parse going up against Ccl/Fondue/cobb and maybe armz or waughh not sure if those two have koga. Only saw Arico in action once, and she (female char) wasn't the best DD.

First off you are a known troll.

However I will get one of them to go with me.
I know armz doesn't have one, but I know wonderousgoat does.

never party with wonderousgoat so I don't know, what I'm trying to point out is that just because a person have a koga doesnt mean ***if they suck. if you going to compare then at least go up against those proven sams. If you can pull a 30% difference on epeen Ccl then I guess you can call the game broken on thf.

I am talking to cobbs now. Even if I don't get 30% and still win by 5-10% that is a huge margin with the hp in delve


edit: he agreed and we will be going here in near future. as for now it is just past 2 a.m. for me. and I have work in the morning.

I, uh, wouldn't recommend it. (one thing to consider. Sam has bow. You should set conditions of no namas/apex, Strictly GK)

If you win, the ragefit from posting the results are going to be hilarious... The amount of bandwagon thf will triple overnight...

If you lose, well I guess you just lose, no one is shocked, SAM OP.

If you look down at the parse and you're winning, one might consider throwing it... just saying. The last thing we want is more lolthfs.

Ouch... (True Strike)

Delusion: the post.

yeah I've still run into a lot of teribad thieves even after this update that aren't worth a dd slot. But I believe that all this update did was make the DPS potential margin competetive in certain situations. Such that a strong THF can now outparse a mediocre-ish SAM. I don't see a problem with this. It's a shock to people because SAM could be mediocre and face roll ***and it would still win. Competant DD Thief's have always beeen hard workers and number crunchers. It doesn't suprise me to see them skyrocket after this change.

If you are outparsing a Koga SAM on Tojil, already that tells me something is pretty wrong there(GKT & BOW, etc).

But there are too many variables with buffs/debuffs/skill level/attentiveness/gear/macros/food/gearswap(or not)/haste/monster weakness/whatever else. It's just not relevant to post numbers like that and say "See THF is OP!"

That aside, if you want to have a true parsing competition with a competant Koga SAM, Id' suggest doing it on something that is not delve. There are too many gimicks there.

El oh el

What would you suggest? High-Tier BCNM, incursion or...? Honestly if I have run into enough "bad koga sam's." At this point I want to see what I do up against a good koga sam.