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Obamas war without congress approval
Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-15 19:13:48
Using atheism as part of your cult is still using atheism but using it for evil is questionable, at least in our current paradigm. It's like saying bald is a hair color, or that not drinking tea is your favorite tea. Atheism does not have a dogma or associated world-view. It is as broad a term as Theism. Every associated world view that doesn't believe in a god falls under it - delusional included. The difference is that gnosticism is much more prevalent on the Theism side.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-09-15 21:05:08
Atheism does not have a dogma or associated world-view.
Rubbish! We atheists spread the word of Cthulhu!
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-15 21:08:24
How is it even possible to do evil with atheism? The following atheists were good at it:
Napoleon Bonaparte
Kim Jong-il
Jeffrey Dahmer
Jim Jones
Benito Mussolini
And of course everyone's favorite atheist, Joseph Stalin.
At least in the case of those 3, their particular form of fascist nationalism is much more comparable to theist religion than it is to atheism. The difference being that they placed themselves in the driver's seat. Stalin, being the only one you can say was actually atheistic, but only so far as not naming himself god, he was quite theistic in practice.
By Kooljack 2014-09-15 21:26:05
modern christians have done away with, 'religion'. their keen to say they believe in a higher power or have a creationist viewpoint.
most modern Christians don't even use the word anymore. religion ties together people who follow their church's rules and regulations to appease men, and not their god. Religion is the word for, 'cult' in the eyes of many modern believer's. the word religion is dead. just fyi from the non-atheist modern christian.
creationists know where the line becomes corrupt over serving your higher power and appeasing their religious leaders. So all these atheist using the word religion seems weird when even the modern christian community denounces the word religion because they've moved past, just following rules and cult like groups, too just simply sharing love. just keep that in mind as you atheists discuss and throw religion around.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 21:31:10
lol (edit:) organized religions are cults, that's kind of the point...
the word isn't anymore dead than your cults, unfortunately.
I needed a good laugh though while waiting for the game day to pass, thanks
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By Kooljack 2014-09-15 21:36:38
lol religions are cults, that's kind of the point...
the word isn't anymore dead than your cults, unfortunately.
I needed a good laugh though while waiting for the game day to pass, thanks
ya thats my point. stop tossing religion around when the modern christian community knows that religion goes hand-in-hand with cult. you all talk about religion this, that. but really the believers don't even use the word anymore. neither should you because we're in agreement about how the word is taken.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 21:39:53
lol religions are cults, that's kind of the point...
the word isn't anymore dead than your cults, unfortunately.
I needed a good laugh though while waiting for the game day to pass, thanks
ya thats my point. stop tossing religion around when the modern christian community knows that religion goes hand-in-hand with cult. you all talk about religion this, that. but really the believers don't even use the word anymore. neither should you because we're in agreement about how the word is taken. Yet you don't understand that regardless of the "believers" using the word or not, you are still religious, and no the words aren't entirely synonymous, just organized religions are cults, but you can be religious without belonging to an organization, but you're still just as crazy as the rest of them.
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By Kooljack 2014-09-15 21:40:53
religion, religion , blah, blah ,blah...
you don't even know your own american christian community. In that most modern creationists believe in sharing love with their fellow humanitarians. ya religion is cult. the american creationist community has moved past that word. you should do the same because most American believers view the word as bad and of not relating to them in any way
By Kooljack 2014-09-15 21:42:45
wtf dude.... see you're trying to use the word religion to categorize believers. when the community has long moved past religious practices, to just sharing love and peace... I'm trying to help you see what you don't know about how believers view the word religion. which is derogatory and of no relations to them. christian community has broken down bigger organizations of Christianity to smaller non-denomination church's, reaching out to people with love, instead of rules and regulations. I'm trying to enlighten you of how aware the creationists are with the word and that, you, me, we all, are in agreeance with what the word means. but you[jectaru] have failed to see that the non-denomination church's of america have long sense abandoned religion. instead of knowing this, you belligerently throw the word around like a foo l
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 21:49:32
religion, religion , blah, blah ,blah...
you don't even know your own american christian community. In that most modern creationists believe in sharing love with their fellow humanitarians. ya religion is cult. the american creationist community has moved past that word. you should do the same because most American believers view the word as bad and of not relating to them in any way I know the American christian community very well thank you, and yes they consider it bad because it is bad and they are bad, just because they want to disassociate themselves from the negativity that they themselves are doesn't mean we have to go along with it.
wtf dude.... see you're trying to use the word religion to categorize believers. when the community has long moved past religious practices, to just sharing love and peace... I'm trying to help you see what you don't know about how believers already view the word as derogatory and of no relations to them.
I'm not trying to use the word, that's how the word is used, end of story. But it comes as no surprise to me that a religious person is trying to twist reality again in their favor.
I see exactly what you're trying to do, you're not trying to help me at all, nor do I need any of your help. The word is a definition, if it's derogatory it's because what it's defining is derogatory.
You can not want to be associated with the word all you want, but your history has dug it's own grave.
edit: not to mention the severe laughs at trying to say that the community isn't religious, I'm going to bust my side open if you keep making me laugh that hard. I need a drink.
By Kooljack 2014-09-15 21:50:49
religion, religion , blah, blah ,blah...
you don't even know your own american christian community. In that most modern creationists believe in sharing love with their fellow humanitarians. ya religion is cult. the american creationist community has moved past that word. you should do the same because most American believers view the word as bad and of not relating to them in any way I know the American christian community very well thank you, and yes they consider it bad because it is bad and they are bad, just because they want to disassociate themselves from the negativity that they themselves are doesn't mean we have to go along with it.
wtf dude.... see you're trying to use the word religion to categorize believers. when the community has long moved past religious practices, to just sharing love and peace... I'm trying to help you see what you don't know about how believers already view the word as derogatory and of no relations to them.
I'm not trying to use the word, that's how the word is used, end of story. But it comes as no surprise to me that a religious person is trying to twist reality again in their favor.
I see exactly what you're trying to do, you're not trying to help me at all, nor do I need any of your help. The word is a definition, if it's derogatory it's because what it's defining is derogatory.
You can not want to be associated with the word all you want, but your history has dug it's own grave.
edit: not to mention the severe laughs at trying to say that the community isn't religious, I'm going to bust my side open if you keep making me laugh that hard. I need a drink.
but you[jectaru] have failed to see that the non-denomination church's of america have long sense abandoned religion. instead of knowing this, you belligerently throw the word around like a foo l
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 21:56:52
I have failed to see nothing, no person who follows a religion (Christianity) has abandoned religion, regardless of how much you want to separate yourselves from the evils of it, you can't.
I know what you're trying to say/do and it's not working, I'm not blind, I'm just not a fool like you seem to think others are, but you truly are if you think anyone would fall for that. But since you are religious in the first place, statistics dictate that you most likely are of lower intelligence, so again: comes as no surprise to me.
There's no belligerence, you don't understand/comprehend the fact that it's a definition, not an insult. If you take it as an insult then the problem is with what you are and what you do.
You by definition are religious, whether you want to be regarded as so or not, no amount of you throwing a temper tantrum here is going to change that.
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By Kooljack 2014-09-15 21:57:53
edit: not to mention the severe laughs at trying to say that the community isn't religious, I'm going to bust my side open if you keep making me laugh that hard. I need a drink.
ya fool you dont even know how modern christians view themselfs. stfu before you speak on someone's behalf and label all creationists as religious...
you make mention of getting the dictionary to prove your point; but I'm pointing out that the modern non denomination church goers don't even have use for the word religion anymore because they fully understand it and have moved past the things of rules and regulations that make practicing a faith into a religion.
go get your dictionary, to prove creationists are religious, thats not even what im pointing out
Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-15 21:58:11
wtf dude.... see you're trying to use the word religion to categorize believers. when the community has long moved past religious practices, to just sharing love and peace... re·li·gion
riˈlijən/
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
That's still a religion.
Quote: I'm trying to help you see what you don't know about how believers view the word religion. which is derogatory and of no relations to them. Christians like to change definitions to suit them. Too bad diction doesn't work that way. It'd be pretty convenient.
Quote: christian community has broken down bigger organizations of Christianity to smaller non-denomination church's, reaching out to people with love, instead of rules and regulations. Still religion, albeit smaller in scope. The Spanish Inquisition wouldn't have been kind to this kind of thinking, by the by.
Quote: I'm trying to enlighten you of how aware the creationists are with the word and that, you, me, we all, are in agreeance with what the word means. but you[jectaru] have failed to see that the non-denomination church's of america have long sense abandoned religion. instead of knowing this, you belligerently throw the word around like a foo l You can't abandon a categorical definition, despite your attempt to distance yourself from it. The word defines your spiritual practice, much in the same way that mythology defines it.
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By Kooljack 2014-09-15 21:59:30
yes i understand the definition dumb @ss. im just saying you need to wisen up to how most church goers know, and believe exactly as you do about religion.
embasals, im not argueing the definition of the word, im saying atheists use it out of context towards a lot of the church going community as a derogatory frame. yes by definition of the word you can label all church goers as religious but you must know language evolves and takes on new meanings. if you've ever taken a language class you would know language is always changing. definition by book standards can mean something but GROW UP
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:00:22
yes i understand the definition dumb @ss. im just saying you need to wisen up to how most church goers know, and believe exactly as you do about religion Obviously they don't, or they wouldn't be religious. Oh, look, he's calling people names now.
Edit: knowledge and belief are two entirely different things, but there's a strong correlation between how much one knows, and how much *** one will believe.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:02:07
@Tikal: I mean they only controlled the definitions of words for how many years? It's not until more recently that we're starting to tear away from the church's reigns on the language as a whole.
I mean people still consider certain words to be "curses" for *** sake, not to mention the giant misconception that is the word "atheism."
But I digress.
Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-15 22:02:08
yes i understand the definition dumb @ss. im just saying you need to wisen up to how most church goers know, and believe exactly as you do about religion Knowing is the issue then, I guess.
By Kooljack 2014-09-15 22:06:24
see this is how out of touch atheists are with how evolved the non-denomination church going community has become. YOU PROVE MY POINT BY TRYING TO ARGUE TEXTBOOK DEFINITIONS. you don't understand what the creationists viewpoint is from a non-denomination standard.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:08:09
see this is how out of touch atheists are with how evolved the non-denomination church going community has become. YOU PROVE MY POINT BY TRYING TO ARGUE TEXTBOOK DEFINITIONS. you don't understand what the creationists viewpoint is from a non-denomination standard. It's not that we don't understand it: it's that it's irrelevant.
You can't go just changing definitions of words (that don't really have multiple definitions) just because you find it insulting.
You are still religious, regardless of what you want to believe, reality is not dependent upon belief.
Your point isn't proven and can't be proven as you're arguing against textbook definitions, which is the base on which we define everything. But you apparently live in fiction-world, so this argument has gotten rather dull rather fast.
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By Kooljack 2014-09-15 22:08:41
im not abandoning categorical definitions. Nor am i a religious person trying to twist a definitions meaning. im simply saying you atheists don't know jack about how the church community has evolved in the last century.
your back to textbook definitions?? thats not my point, ignorant much? I'm pointing out that a huge majority of americans have abondoned the 'religious' aspects of their faith. You however act as if you don't know this. infact you don't because you're using the word like by its textbook definition labeling all creationists under the umbrella. (YES YOUR 10000% correct BY DEFINITION STANDARDS LOL)
But thats what im pointing out you have no idea how the community has changed from religious practices to free love.
yes the textbook definition will always forever be the same. but language and human perceptions/actions change. even if your correct by definition standards
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:09:45
im not abandoning categorical definitions. Nor am i a religious person trying to twist a definitions meaning. im simply saying you atheists don't know jack about how the church community has evolved in the last century.
Yeah: you are, yeah; you are and you would be entirely wrong.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-15 22:10:15
im not abandoning categorical definitions. Nor am i a religious person trying to twist a definitions meaning. im simply saying you atheists don't know jack about how the church community has evolved in the last century.
How could you not know when they are so keen to tell everyone whether they ask or not.
"How do you know if someone is a vegetarian?"
"Don't worry, they'll tell you."
It applies equally well to MOST Christians.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:11:14
Jassik you just applied a correlation that makes me giggle, thank you.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-15 22:14:38
Jassik you just applied a correlation that makes me giggle, thank you.
Jet, pleasing you is my only motivation on this forum :D
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:15:20
Jassik you just applied a correlation that makes me giggle, thank you.
Jet, pleasing you is my only motivation on this forum :D Then you're doing a pisspoor job of it lately, then again a derail like this hasn't happened in some time.
Too bad I already ate my popcorn.
By Kooljack 2014-09-15 22:18:05
Does not language evolve and take on new meanings. I took a japanese class not long ago and this 55 year old japanese lady is telling me about how language constantly changes. and so do people. people change. the world changes. etc... just them dumb atheists labeling believers and using the word religion as if it has any practical meaning on the current generation of Christians, is about the only dam thing that Hasn't changed
I digress thats not the point. the point is that your view of the current ongoing practices at most churches these days has evolved and changed. its only the aethists view of the creationist that hasn't evolved as the creationist has. they just go back to pointing at dictionaries like monkeys
its not about religion anymore. its about creationists versus evolutionists at this point.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:21:14
Does not language evolve and take on new meanings. I took a japanese class not long ago and this 55 year old japanese lady is telling me about how language constantly changes. and so do people. people change. the world changes. etc... just them dumb atheists labeling believers and using the word religion as if it has any practical meaning on the current generation of Christians, is about the only dam thing that Hasn't changed It has a very practical meaning on current christians.
Here's your disconnect: you confuse religion with what's known as organized religion when it's just a set of beliefs concerning the universe.
You already admitted you have the latter so by definition you are religious, regardless of how much you want to believe it or not. I'll take that you don't belong to an organized religion, as you may not fall directly into one of the known sects, but others may argue against that if you still go to a church.
Ergo: you are entirely wrong, except for some language does evolve over time, but this hasn't regardless of how much you want it to, it hasn't changed.
This really has nothing to do with creationists or not, religion and creationism are not mutually inclusive concepts, you can have one without the other, or neither or both. But you're the only one acting like a monkey here, when language and education escape you.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-15 22:22:13
Does not language evolve and take on new meanings. I took a japanese class not long ago and this 55 year old japanese lady is telling me about how language constantly changes. and so do people. people change. the world changes. etc... just them dumb atheists labeling believers and using the word religion as if it has any practical meaning on the current generation of Christians, is about the only dam thing that Hasn't changed
Language evolves, sure. That's why people like me aren't called heretics anymore. But, to pretend that the evolution of language somehow changes the paradoxical nature of modern Christianity is dishonest to a disgusting degree. It's a red herring, it changes nothing.
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Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-15 22:22:38
see this is how out of touch atheists are with how evolved the non-denomination church going community has become. YOU PROVE MY POINT BY TRYING TO ARGUE TEXTBOOK DEFINITIONS. you don't understand what the creationists viewpoint is from a non-denomination standard. I'm not an Atheist. Strike one.
Quote: Can Obama wage war without consent of Congress?
WASHINGTON (AP) — On the cusp of intensified airstrikes in Iraq and Syria, President Barack Obama is using the legal grounding of the congressional authorizations President George W. Bush relied on more than a decade ago to go to war. But Obama has made no effort to ask Congress to explicitly authorize his own conflict.
The White House said again Friday that Bush-era congressional authorizations for the war on al-Qaida and the Iraq invasion give Obama authority to act without new approval by Congress under the 1973 War Powers Act. That law, passed during the Vietnam War, serves as a constitutional check on presidential power to declare war without congressional consent. It requires presidents to notify Congress within 48 hours of military action and limits the use of military forces to no more than 60 days unless Congress authorizes force or declares war.
"It is the view of this administration and the president's national security team specifically that additional authorization from Congress is not required, that he has the authority that he needs to order the military actions," White House spokesman Josh Earnest said. He said there were no plans to seek consent from Congress. "At this point we have not, and I don't know of any plan to do so at this point," he said.
The administration's tightly crafted legal strategy has short-circuited the congressional oversight that Obama once championed. The White House's use of post-9/11 congressional force authorizations for the broadening air war has generated a chorus of criticism that the justifications are, at best, a legal stretch.
"Committing American lives to war is such a serious question, it should not be left to one person to decide, even if it's the president," said former Illinois Rep. Paul Findley, 92, who helped write the War Powers Act.
As a U.S. senator from Illinois running for president in 2007, Obama tried to prevent Bush's administration from taking any military action against Iran unless it was explicitly authorized by Congress. A Senate resolution Obama sponsored died in committee.
Nearly seven years later, U.S. fighter jets and unmanned drones armed with missiles have flown 150 airstrikes against the Islamic State group over the past five weeks in Iraq under Obama's orders — even though he has yet to formally ask Congress to authorize the expanding war. Obama told the nation Wednesday he would unleash U.S. strikes inside Syria for the first time, along with intensified bombing in Iraq, as part of "a steady, relentless effort" to root out Islamic State extremists. Obama has not said how long the air campaign will last.
The White House has cited the 2001 military authorization Congress gave Bush to attack any countries, groups or people who planned, authorized, committed or aided the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Earnest on Thursday described the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force, generally known as the AUMF, as one that Obama "believes continues to apply to this terrorist organization that is operating in Iraq and Syria."
The Islamic State group, which was founded in 2004, has not been linked to the 9/11 attacks, although its founders later pledged allegiance to Osama bin Laden. In February, al-Qaida declared that the Islamic State group was no longer formally part of the terror organization. And in recent weeks, senior U.S. officials, including Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson and Matthew Olsen, head of the National Counterterrorism Center, have drawn significant distinctions between al-Qaida and the Islamic State group.
Earnest said Thursday that Obama welcomes support from Congress but that it isn't necessary. "The president has the authority, the statutory authority that he needs," Earnest said.
Others disagreed.
"I actually think the 2001 AUMF argument is pretty tortured," said Rep. Jim Himes, D-Conn., who serves on the House Intelligence Committee. "They are essentially saying that ISIL is associated with al-Qaida, and that's not obvious," Himes said, using an alternate acronym for the Islamic State group. "Stretching it like this has dangerous implications."
Himes supports a new congressional vote for a specific IS group authorization, as does another Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, Rep. Adam Schiff of California.
There is wariness even from some former Bush administration officials. Jack Goldsmith, head of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel under Bush, said in the Lawfare blog that "it seems a stretch" to connect the Islamic State group to al-Qaida, considering recent rivalry between the two groups.
The White House also finds authorization under the 2002 resolution that approved the invasion of Iraq to identify and destroy weapons of mass destruction. That resolution also cited the threat from al-Qaida, which Congress said then was operating inside Iraq. But the U.S. later concluded there were no ties between al-Qaida and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein or his government, and the group formally known as al-Qaida in Iraq — which later evolved into the Islamic State group — didn't form until 2004, after the U.S.-led invasion.
Obama is using both authorizations as authority to act even though he publicly sought their repeal last year. In a key national security address at the National Defense University in May 2013, Obama said he wanted to scrap the 2001 order because "we may be drawn into more wars we don't need to fight." Two months later, Obama's national security adviser, Susan Rice, asked House Speaker John Boehner to consider repealing the 2002 Iraq resolution, calling the document "outdated."
Obama has asked only for congressional backing to pay for the buildup of American advisers and equipment to aid Syrian opposition forces. House Republicans spurned a vote on that separate request earlier this week, but Boehner is now siding with the administration. The White House acknowledged it could not overtly train Syrian rebels without Congress approving the cost of about $500 million.
Since U.S. military advisers went into Iraq in June, the administration has maneuvered repeatedly to avoid coming into conflict with the War Powers provision that imposes a 60-day time limit on unapproved military action. Seven times, before each 60-day limit has expired, Obama has sent new notification letters to Congress restarting the clock and providing new extensions without invoking congressional approval. The most recent four notifications have covered the airstrikes against the Islamic State group that began Aug. 8.
An international law expert at Temple University's Beasley School of Law, Peter J. Spiro, described the letters as workarounds that amount to "killing the War Powers Act with 1,000 tiny cuts."
Former Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., who now heads the Lugar Center for foreign affairs in Washington, said Obama could ask for congressional approval in a way that would be less formal than a specific war resolution — perhaps either as an appropriations request or a simple resolution.
"It may not be the most satisfactory way to declare war," Lugar said. "But it may be a pragmatic compromise for the moment."
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