|
Obamas war without congress approval
VIP
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-16 00:27:02
Considering the bible was written by just as sick and twisted individuals you really have no claim there... It's very fair.
Erm, citation needed? I don't hold to the idea that the Bible is infallible, I'm just wondering where you get off calling the original writers sick and twisted.
Sick and twisted might be a bit harsh, but blatantly dishonest fits the bill pretty well. They claim to be people they aren't and claim to witness things they did not.
quick question...
I now ive been gone a few pages, but when did it switch from "Obamas war without congress approval" to a religious topic debate?
At what point was the topic not about religion? It's about a war with ISIS, who are a pseudo-religious militant political movement. Someone made some kind of "don't group all religious people in with radicals" argument and got the appropriate response to the tone they took. As much as they claim to be, I was enlightened by a co-worker's take on the whole ordeal. It isn't religious at all, it's merely a facade for want of control. That is pretty much a great synopsis of the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, Jihad, and many other notoriable "religious" wars/cleansings.
Hence, I called them pseudo-religious. We all know they aren't trying to reclaim their holy land, at least not at the higher levels, the people on the ground might think that's what's going on, though.
[+]
By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:27:16
Considering the bible was written by just as sick and twisted individuals you really have no claim there... It's very fair.
Erm, citation needed? I don't hold to the idea that the Bible is infallible, I'm just wondering where you get off calling the original writers sick and twisted.
I've read the piece of ***.
Okay, so you're dense, incredibly biased, and judgmental. I guess that's not new. Nope, nope but yes, I am judgemental.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:27:52
Considering the bible was written by just as sick and twisted individuals you really have no claim there... It's very fair.
Either way I wouldn't make the argument of using a religion's doctrine to further a war for power and control as 100% secular by any stretch of the imagination. The entire concept of domination is secular. Look at tenants from various religions. The vast majority of popular religions have an overarching concept of meek or unassuming life. The times domination have been interjected have been secular concepts introduced by proclaimed followers. Wolves in sheep's clothing if you will.
Lol what? the entire point of religion is to dominate the masses...
Bismarck.Bloodrose
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4322
By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-09-16 00:28:46
Considering the bible was written by just as sick and twisted individuals you really have no claim there... It's very fair. Divinely inspired and projected concepts aren't necessarily the same thing.
First half of the book is mostly anecdotal (according to several leading historical theologians now as well as myself via research), and it is entirely nullified by the second half which consists of a theme of "put others before yourself and do not focus on gaining personal wealth, as it is fleeting".
So, when you take those crazy and twisted rules and teachings from the Old Testament and apply that they were merely a teaching method, not a literal list to follow; it completely changes the value and credibility. These were simple people (comparatively to today), and those parallels were by extension simple and oft exaggerated simply to prove a point. At the time, to a majority populous unable to read, therefore they needed to grasp the concept through hearing it read aloud. Sounds more like the latter half is explaining Aesop's Fables rather than the Bible.
[+]
By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:28:51
Sick and twisted is time-relative, and unless you're making the assertion that the Bible was written solely as a political tool to control the masses, sick and twisted doesn't really fit the bill. High out-of-their-minds on opiates? Maybe.
Are you making the assertion that it wasn't? I mean don't get me wrong the thing did a damn good job of that, but damn.
Cerberus.Tikal
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4945
By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-16 00:29:13
Yeah man, those Jainists want to control everything.
[+]
Bahamut.Ravael
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-16 00:29:30
Lol what? the entire point of bad religions is to dominate the masses... ftfy
By daemun 2014-09-16 00:29:43
lolno, just no...
but nice job on continuing the trend of being a Christian apologist as always, at least you're consistent. Christiann Apologetic, yes. Apologist? No. I try to gain any and all knowledge I can. This knowledge has changed my concept of my faith, numerous times. As has stimuli provided by my life experiences. However, to this day, not only do I still feel the presence of a higher order than our mere 86yr expected lives and the "American Dream" of get what you can while you can, then live as hard as you can until you can't; but also find that the best explanation for the times scientific theory or our grasp of scientific principles is a Divine being establishing balance in an otherwise easily skewed existence.
EDIT: That said, I still feel bad when non believers have bad experiences with people who represent the Crown wrongfully. It hurts me to know that they are now further from life abundant thanks to someone claiming to be living the Christian lifestyle.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:30:23
Regardless of the time, saying it's ok to rape and pillage those you conquer is very sick and twisted, no matter how "cool" it may sound to certain minds.
Not to mention the other severely deranged things the god of the bible supports.
[+]
By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:31:43
Yeah man, those Jainists want to control everything. I do apologize, I meant Abrahamic religions, carry on.
[+]
By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:32:04
Lol what? the entire point of bad religions is to dominate the masses... ftfy
only if you like being redundant, but "bad" is relative/subjective, if the goal is to control the masses then if it does a poor job then it would be considered "bad" but if you're talking about good vs bad, well then sure.
VIP
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-16 00:32:09
Considering the bible was written by just as sick and twisted individuals you really have no claim there... It's very fair.
Either way I wouldn't make the argument of using a religion's doctrine to further a war for power and control as 100% secular by any stretch of the imagination. The entire concept of domination is secular. Look at tenants from various religions. The vast majority of popular religions have an overarching concept of meek or unassuming life. The times domination have been interjected have been secular concepts introduced by proclaimed followers. Wolves in sheep's clothing if you will.
Eh, you're trying to equate domination as an instinct with domination as a practice of societal control. They aren't really the same thing. Using a position of power to manipulate masses isn't uniquely religious, but it isn't intrinsically secular, either. As long as there has been geopolitical subtext, there has been religion to hide behind.
Bahamut.Ravael
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-16 00:32:16
Actually, I'm done arguing with Jet in particular. He already knows that 90% of everything he says is opinion driven and based on extremes, plus he makes no attempt to cite his claims. I'll tag in when someone else has a fact-based and valid argument.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:33:36
Actually, I'm done arguing with Jet in particular. He already knows that 90% of everything he says is opinion driven and based on extremes, plus he makes no attempt to cite his claims. I'll tag in when someone else has a fact-based and valid argument.
Not at all, do I need to come back to Port Jeuno and teach you who's boss again?
edit: I am not going to cite common knowledge, or easily researched things, it's a waste of time, and most of the time the people it would be posted to refute would ignore it anyway and claim victory, that includes you.
Bahamut.Ravael
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-16 00:34:30
Actually, I'm done arguing with Jet in particular. He already knows that 90% of everything he says is opinion driven and based on extremes, plus he makes no attempt to cite his claims. I'll tag in when someone else has a fact-based and valid argument.
Not at all, do I need to come back to Port Jeuno and teach you who's boss again?
Just make sure I'm afk again first.
[+]
Cerberus.Tikal
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4945
By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-16 00:36:36
Rape was a spoil of war until very recently. The world is a *** up place and humans are no exception. We're at a time in human progress that is so detached from many historically common horrorifics that we cannot fathom their normality in the past. The fact that those things are included in the Bible do not speak ill of the it - it was written in the Bronze age after all. The reason those things are brought up is in correspondence with fundamentalist and literalistic interpretations of the Bible, because if it is taken literally, so too must those writings that are unacceptable by today's society.
[+]
By daemun 2014-09-16 00:37:09
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Sounds more like the latter half is explaining Aesop's Fables rather than the Bible. Something I've been researching as of late is the distinct similarities of ancient and current religious stories. There was a Sumerian god that shared many traits with Jesus. Born of a virgin woman, died and rose after three days. This intrigues me. I've tried to take on any new knowledge as unbiased as possible. From what I've learned thus far, it seems to me that instead of this being proof that Christianity is merely a copycat religion, it's more that humanity has always felt the presence of a higher power. That higher power takes on the form of what that society understands. In those days, the concept of life changed much more so than it has in the last 2000 years, which is why we still have "Christianity" and "Judaism" as they stand today without much change from nearly 2000 years ago. It's not that Christianity is spot on and Sumerians were innately wrong; it's that we felt the same "God", but formed our concept of him differently based on the knowledge and data available to us at each respective time.
Cerberus.Tikal
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4945
By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-16 00:39:57
Look up syncretism Daemun. It's a fascinating subject.
By daemun 2014-09-16 00:40:42
Eh, you're trying to equate domination as an instinct with domination as a practice of societal control. They aren't really the same thing. Using a position of power to manipulate masses isn't uniquely religious, but it isn't intrinsically secular, either. As long as there has been geopolitical subtext, there has been religion to hide behind. While I agree, I still state that the concept of societal control was birthed out of the human brain, and not divine inspiration. That was merely what I was trying to say. Societal control is in the Old Testament as a matter of fact, several times, just as Jet likes to use when he takes piece of the Bible out of context to prove a point. Individually, there are some horrendous acts on humanity stated in the Bible. When placed in context and read as a whole, often the meaning changes entirely.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:40:44
Rape was a spoil of war until very recently. The world is a *** up place and humans are no exception. We're at a time in human progress that is so detached from many historically common horrorifics that we cannot fathom their normality in the past. The fact that those things are included in the Bible do not speak ill of the it - it was written in the Bronze age after all. The reason those things are brought up is in correspondence with fundamentalist and literalistic interpretations of the Bible, because if it is taken literally, so too must those writings that are unacceptable by today's society. I'm not ignorant of humanity's creations/"evils" just that that particular book is one of them, and it's ludicrous to claim it's moral superiority when it's blatantly written by humans and their timely code of misguided morals, it doesn't make it any less grotesque.
Hell there's a lot of things that are commonplace today that society does that I find particularly sickening, but as some of it is so popular and "traditional" it will take a lot of time and pressure to change it.
[+]
Bismarck.Bloodrose
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4322
By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-09-16 00:41:01
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Sounds more like the latter half is explaining Aesop's Fables rather than the Bible. Something I've been researching as of late is the distinct similarities of ancient and current religious stories. There was a Sumerian god that shared many traits with Jesus. Born of a virgin woman, died and rose after three days. This intrigues me. I've tried to take on any new knowledge as unbiased as possible. From what I've learned thus far, it seems to me that instead of this being proof that Christianity is merely a copycat religion, it's more that humanity has always felt the presence of a higher power. That higher power takes on the form of what that society understands. In those days, the concept of life changed much more so than it has in the last 2000 years, which is why we still have "Christianity" and "Judaism" as they stand today without much change from nearly 2000 years ago. It's not that Christianity is spot on and Sumerians were innately wrong; it's that we felt the same "God", but formed our concept of him differently based on the knowledge and data available to us at each respective time. The Bible itself is a collection of stories - many factual events, skewed into a different place and time - taken from many of the other cultures it has wiped out in order to gain dominance.
Noah's Ark is a good example. It was story once told in the Epic of Gilgamesh, almost word for word.
[+]
By daemun 2014-09-16 00:41:45
Look up syncretism Daemun. It's a fascinating subject. Well based on Google's definition, it looks quite interesting. I shall definitely look into it more and see if my own faith is a product of such.
[+]
By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:43:16
Eh, you're trying to equate domination as an instinct with domination as a practice of societal control. They aren't really the same thing. Using a position of power to manipulate masses isn't uniquely religious, but it isn't intrinsically secular, either. As long as there has been geopolitical subtext, there has been religion to hide behind. While I agree, I still state that the concept of societal control was birthed out of the human brain, and not divine inspiration. That was merely what I was trying to say. Societal control is in the Old Testament as a matter of fact, several times, just as Jet likes to use when he takes piece of the Bible out of context to prove a point. Individually, there are some horrendous acts on humanity stated in the Bible. When placed in context and read as a whole, often the meaning changes entirely. There's nothing out of context, and considering the god of the bible is factious and man-made, of course it's not divinely inspired.
This can be logically deduced, but if you're of the belief that your "divine being" can supersede logic, then that concept is too lost on you.
But I don't give a ***how much of an apologist you are, if you're going to sit here and tell me that the god of the bible doesn't condone those evil things, I'm going to laugh at you.
[+]
Bahamut.Ravael
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-16 00:44:40
There was a Sumerian god that shared many traits with Jesus. Born of a virgin woman, died and rose after three days.
I occasionally hear people say that, but I can't find anything solid to support the claim. Where are people getting this story from so I can research it?
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Noah's Ark is a good example. It was story once told in the Epic of Gilgamesh, almost word for word.
There's no proof that the stories didn't evolve from the same account, though. That's to be expected in an era when there was less writing, more storytelling.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:45:22
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Sounds more like the latter half is explaining Aesop's Fables rather than the Bible. Something I've been researching as of late is the distinct similarities of ancient and current religious stories. There was a Sumerian god that shared many traits with Jesus. Born of a virgin woman, died and rose after three days. This intrigues me. I've tried to take on any new knowledge as unbiased as possible. From what I've learned thus far, it seems to me that instead of this being proof that Christianity is merely a copycat religion, it's more that humanity has always felt the presence of a higher power. That higher power takes on the form of what that society understands. In those days, the concept of life changed much more so than it has in the last 2000 years, which is why we still have "Christianity" and "Judaism" as they stand today without much change from nearly 2000 years ago. It's not that Christianity is spot on and Sumerians were innately wrong; it's that we felt the same "God", but formed our concept of him differently based on the knowledge and data available to us at each respective time. The Bible itself is a collection of stories - many factual events, skewed into a different place and time - taken from many of the other cultures it has wiped out in order to gain dominance.
Noah's Ark is a good example. It was story once told in the Epic of Gilgamesh, almost word for word.
A lot of the stories were "stolen"/"borrowed" and there were many "gods" of virgin births, that's not really news to many people, well...
VIP
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-16 00:45:52
There was a Sumerian god that shared many traits with Jesus. Born of a virgin woman, died and rose after three days.
I occasionally hear people say that, but I can't find anything solid to support the claim. Where are people getting this story from so I can research it?
Horus would be a good jumping point, he's egyptian, but based on an earlier figure as well.
[+]
By Jetackuu 2014-09-16 00:47:57
I'm going to dip out, you ladies have fun, I either need to do relic trials or physics homework.
Cerberus.Tikal
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4945
By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-16 00:48:18
Many kings were said to have been born of virgins. It was testament to their divine right to hold the throne. Julias Caesar, for instance, was said to have been born of a virgin.
[+]
Bahamut.Ravael
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13640
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-16 00:48:50
There was a Sumerian god that shared many traits with Jesus. Born of a virgin woman, died and rose after three days.
I occasionally hear people say that, but I can't find anything solid to support the claim. Where are people getting this story from so I can research it?
Horus would be a good jumping point, he's egyptian, but based on an earlier figure as well.
I'm familiar with Horus. Egyptian mythology used to be one of my interests. It's a stretch.
By daemun 2014-09-16 00:49:12
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »The Bible itself is a collection of stories - many factual events, skewed into a different place and time - taken from many of the other cultures it has wiped out in order to gain dominance.
Noah's Ark is a good example. It was story once told in the Epic of Gilgamesh, almost word for word. I agree with your post in it's entirety, but would like to point something out about the bold.
The (yes here's the "No True Scotsman" approach, sue me), that the real concept of Christianity is not societal control, but self control. They purpose and joy an individual gains from applying it to their life, should be impacting enough that they feel compelled to share it with others around them. That, unfortunately, gets skewed into what is monikered as "Bible Thumping". People misinterpret the concept of spreading the Good news as telling everyone they come across how much better than them they are, and/or telling them they're going to Hell.
Speaking in very crude generalities with this post.
Quote: Can Obama wage war without consent of Congress?
WASHINGTON (AP) — On the cusp of intensified airstrikes in Iraq and Syria, President Barack Obama is using the legal grounding of the congressional authorizations President George W. Bush relied on more than a decade ago to go to war. But Obama has made no effort to ask Congress to explicitly authorize his own conflict.
The White House said again Friday that Bush-era congressional authorizations for the war on al-Qaida and the Iraq invasion give Obama authority to act without new approval by Congress under the 1973 War Powers Act. That law, passed during the Vietnam War, serves as a constitutional check on presidential power to declare war without congressional consent. It requires presidents to notify Congress within 48 hours of military action and limits the use of military forces to no more than 60 days unless Congress authorizes force or declares war.
"It is the view of this administration and the president's national security team specifically that additional authorization from Congress is not required, that he has the authority that he needs to order the military actions," White House spokesman Josh Earnest said. He said there were no plans to seek consent from Congress. "At this point we have not, and I don't know of any plan to do so at this point," he said.
The administration's tightly crafted legal strategy has short-circuited the congressional oversight that Obama once championed. The White House's use of post-9/11 congressional force authorizations for the broadening air war has generated a chorus of criticism that the justifications are, at best, a legal stretch.
"Committing American lives to war is such a serious question, it should not be left to one person to decide, even if it's the president," said former Illinois Rep. Paul Findley, 92, who helped write the War Powers Act.
As a U.S. senator from Illinois running for president in 2007, Obama tried to prevent Bush's administration from taking any military action against Iran unless it was explicitly authorized by Congress. A Senate resolution Obama sponsored died in committee.
Nearly seven years later, U.S. fighter jets and unmanned drones armed with missiles have flown 150 airstrikes against the Islamic State group over the past five weeks in Iraq under Obama's orders — even though he has yet to formally ask Congress to authorize the expanding war. Obama told the nation Wednesday he would unleash U.S. strikes inside Syria for the first time, along with intensified bombing in Iraq, as part of "a steady, relentless effort" to root out Islamic State extremists. Obama has not said how long the air campaign will last.
The White House has cited the 2001 military authorization Congress gave Bush to attack any countries, groups or people who planned, authorized, committed or aided the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Earnest on Thursday described the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force, generally known as the AUMF, as one that Obama "believes continues to apply to this terrorist organization that is operating in Iraq and Syria."
The Islamic State group, which was founded in 2004, has not been linked to the 9/11 attacks, although its founders later pledged allegiance to Osama bin Laden. In February, al-Qaida declared that the Islamic State group was no longer formally part of the terror organization. And in recent weeks, senior U.S. officials, including Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson and Matthew Olsen, head of the National Counterterrorism Center, have drawn significant distinctions between al-Qaida and the Islamic State group.
Earnest said Thursday that Obama welcomes support from Congress but that it isn't necessary. "The president has the authority, the statutory authority that he needs," Earnest said.
Others disagreed.
"I actually think the 2001 AUMF argument is pretty tortured," said Rep. Jim Himes, D-Conn., who serves on the House Intelligence Committee. "They are essentially saying that ISIL is associated with al-Qaida, and that's not obvious," Himes said, using an alternate acronym for the Islamic State group. "Stretching it like this has dangerous implications."
Himes supports a new congressional vote for a specific IS group authorization, as does another Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, Rep. Adam Schiff of California.
There is wariness even from some former Bush administration officials. Jack Goldsmith, head of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel under Bush, said in the Lawfare blog that "it seems a stretch" to connect the Islamic State group to al-Qaida, considering recent rivalry between the two groups.
The White House also finds authorization under the 2002 resolution that approved the invasion of Iraq to identify and destroy weapons of mass destruction. That resolution also cited the threat from al-Qaida, which Congress said then was operating inside Iraq. But the U.S. later concluded there were no ties between al-Qaida and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein or his government, and the group formally known as al-Qaida in Iraq — which later evolved into the Islamic State group — didn't form until 2004, after the U.S.-led invasion.
Obama is using both authorizations as authority to act even though he publicly sought their repeal last year. In a key national security address at the National Defense University in May 2013, Obama said he wanted to scrap the 2001 order because "we may be drawn into more wars we don't need to fight." Two months later, Obama's national security adviser, Susan Rice, asked House Speaker John Boehner to consider repealing the 2002 Iraq resolution, calling the document "outdated."
Obama has asked only for congressional backing to pay for the buildup of American advisers and equipment to aid Syrian opposition forces. House Republicans spurned a vote on that separate request earlier this week, but Boehner is now siding with the administration. The White House acknowledged it could not overtly train Syrian rebels without Congress approving the cost of about $500 million.
Since U.S. military advisers went into Iraq in June, the administration has maneuvered repeatedly to avoid coming into conflict with the War Powers provision that imposes a 60-day time limit on unapproved military action. Seven times, before each 60-day limit has expired, Obama has sent new notification letters to Congress restarting the clock and providing new extensions without invoking congressional approval. The most recent four notifications have covered the airstrikes against the Islamic State group that began Aug. 8.
An international law expert at Temple University's Beasley School of Law, Peter J. Spiro, described the letters as workarounds that amount to "killing the War Powers Act with 1,000 tiny cuts."
Former Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., who now heads the Lugar Center for foreign affairs in Washington, said Obama could ask for congressional approval in a way that would be less formal than a specific war resolution — perhaps either as an appropriations request or a simple resolution.
"It may not be the most satisfactory way to declare war," Lugar said. "But it may be a pragmatic compromise for the moment."
Source
|
|