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George Takei vs Hobby Lobby
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-07 12:18:03
At the absolute worst, I am guilty of no more than you, who frequently engages in the acts of which you accuse me. You repeatedly take things I said out of context, or warp what I say to fit your own arguments.
Another thing we have in common, however, is that we clearly disagree on some topics quite vehemently and that we don't give a damn about what the other thinks. And we're certainly not going to change each other's opinions.
So, in the words of Oghren, "Sod off, duster."
Siren.Mosin
Serveur: Siren
Game: FFXI
By Siren.Mosin 2014-07-07 12:21:47
I love how the OP never matters around here.
WUNDERBAR!
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-07 12:24:08
I love how the OP never matters around here. WUNDERBAR!
The OP always matters. It gives us a jumping-off point.
Lakshmi.Flavin
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-07-07 12:28:00
That's all I get is a "well you did it too."?
disapointing!
VIP
Serveur: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9534
By Odin.Jassik 2014-07-07 12:34:38
I will say it's nice to bicker with each other instead of with the same few trolls.
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Serveur: Shiva
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2014-07-07 12:38:08
Ragnarok.Sekundes
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4197
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-07-07 12:41:14
-- D. Avallone
Sure it's just a blog rant. But it's entirely accurate.
For a rant, I found it surprisingly level headed and made some very good points that I hadn't really thought directly about.
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Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-07-07 12:47:09
I love how the OP never matters around here.
WUNDERBAR!
Just an excuse to pontificate. Cmon.
If you wanna get your *** snipped at the age of adulthood, go for it. The benefits of a circumcision are largely overstated and shackled to tradition rather than the hard science.
By fonewear 2014-07-07 12:51:23
YouTube Video Placeholder
By Viertel 2014-07-07 13:19:14
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »There are none. Physicians used to say it helped prevent infection and was more hygenic at one point in fine, however that argument became archaic hence the current statement from the American Academy of Pediatrics.
Bolded for emphasis.
Circumcision use to be never anything more than religious claptrap. It was designed to be an anti-masturbatory measure (that obviously didn't work) and nothing more. Over the years people in the US (and a few other countries) just became used to circumcised penis being the "thing". These days it's not so much a religious issue as a money and "tradition" issue.
Infection? Hygiene? Teach your child to wash themselves properly and that's never an issue. It's a piece of skin and no more at risk of some nebulous "infection" than any other part of the body. Retraction issues are only a concern in around 1 in 100,000 men and a simple procedure solves that with no need for a full-blown circumcision.
Newborn males are circumcised for one reason only: profit. New parents agree to circumcise at the hospital because they're told "it's hygenic!" or "it prevents infection!" and lap it up because they're new parents and scared as *** to risk anything with their baby, so they agree and the hospital collects from them. They charge it onto your bill and has you sign a release form (of many so you don't notice it because you didn't bother to read it) that allows them to do what they want with the foreskin.
Then it's sold to various bio-research facilities that use human skin for testing purposes. The testing in and of itself isn't wrong (and most of it's used for medicine research and skin graft research), but the manner and reason for circumcisions today is. They double dip on a child's *** without the parents' awareness. It's mutilation for profit.
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As far as Takei's concerned despite being an actor he's certainly more rational and logical than most other celebrities you see engaging in potential political issues.
Ragnarok.Nausi
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-07-07 13:21:10
How can anyone with a strait face compare Hobby Lobby to sharia law?
Caitsith.Zahrah
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-07-07 13:23:09
I'm just saying that I think it's a stupid practice. *shrug* I tend to agree with you, but I've had to ponder all this in an applicable fashion, & ended up letting a doctor snip my son. in the end it all boils down to whether or not it is a stupid enough practice that I should lead the charge against it, with my son only being a pawn in a game of ideals that he may or may not give two *** about. Ideals gets slapped in the pussy by reality more often than not, I have found. I was just curious if you still thought it was a travesty if not done for religious purposes, but for the hope that your offspring will jive with his contemporaries as easily as possible. interesting stuff.
I don't feel strongly enough about it to call it a "travesty", but I mean...how strongly do you care about society's thoughts about your kid's wanger?
Drunken college antics aside, how many people are going to see your son's business to be in a position to judge it?
Societal conformity seems a poor reason to give the go-ahead to me. Religious reasons to have it done by a non-physician seem even worse to me, largely because of the "non-physician" aspect.
To comment or not to comment? That is the question!
I think I may just enjoy the little chuckle this gave me. Got to love AH wang wars whenever they rear their heads. POR LOS NINOS!!!
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Serveur: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 125
By Asura.Triffle 2014-07-07 13:23:11
How can anyone with a strait face compare Hobby Lobby to sharia law?
Today's sharia law is yesterday's inquisition. Seems like a lot of the people in the USA would love to have the good ol' dark ages back. Under their religion of course, not someone else's. :D
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-07 13:24:36
How can anyone with a strait face compare Hobby Lobby to sharia law?
Assuming the proverbial closet is in the bedroom, Takei is so far out of the closet he's in the foyer greeting guests.
He doesn't say anything with a "straight" face.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-07 13:25:06
I'm just saying that I think it's a stupid practice. *shrug* I tend to agree with you, but I've had to ponder all this in an applicable fashion, & ended up letting a doctor snip my son. in the end it all boils down to whether or not it is a stupid enough practice that I should lead the charge against it, with my son only being a pawn in a game of ideals that he may or may not give two *** about. Ideals gets slapped in the pussy by reality more often than not, I have found. I was just curious if you still thought it was a travesty if not done for religious purposes, but for the hope that your offspring will jive with his contemporaries as easily as possible. interesting stuff. I don't feel strongly enough about it to call it a "travesty", but I mean...how strongly do you care about society's thoughts about your kid's wanger? Drunken college antics aside, how many people are going to see your son's business to be in a position to judge it? Societal conformity seems a poor reason to give the go-ahead to me. Religious reasons to have it done by a non-physician seem even worse to me, largely because of the "non-physician" aspect. To comment or not to comment? That is the question! I think I may just enjoy the little chuckle this gave me. Got to love AH wang wars whenever they rear their heads. POR LOS NINOS!!!
Hah!
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Leviathan.Redherring
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 162
By Leviathan.Redherring 2014-07-07 13:31:03
How can anyone with a strait face compare Hobby Lobby to sharia law?
Today's sharia law is yesterday's inquisition. Seems like a lot of the people in the USA would love to have the good ol' dark ages back. Under their religion of course, not someone else's. :D
How about a business with owners who hold beliefs in Scientology and employees who might be prescribed antidepressants?
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Leviathan.Redherring
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 162
By Leviathan.Redherring 2014-07-07 13:32:34
Does Hobby Lobby insurance cover Viagra for unmarried males?
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Bahamut.Ravael
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13641
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-07-07 13:40:55
Is this thread going anywhere, or are we going to keep pointlessly speculating about stuff that may or may not ever happen?
Ragnarok.Nausi
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-07-07 13:42:03
Leviathan.Redherring said: »Does Hobby Lobby insurance cover Viagra for unmarried males?
Honor killings =/= Viagra coverage. This is entirely a false equivalence.
Who cares if your employer doesn't want to cover your anti depressants (or in hobby lobby's case only wishes to cover 80% of anti depressants FDA approved)? Why is it their obligation to cover that for you?
Leviathan.Redherring
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 162
By Leviathan.Redherring 2014-07-07 13:43:36
Is this thread going anywhere, or are we going to keep pointlessly speculating about stuff that may or may not ever happen?
that is a important aspect of supreme court rulings. It is not just about the case they are ruling on but the other possibilities each precedent opens or closes.
Leviathan.Redherring
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 162
By Leviathan.Redherring 2014-07-07 13:45:36
Leviathan.Redherring said: »Does Hobby Lobby insurance cover Viagra for unmarried males?
Honor killings =/= Viagra coverage. This is entirely a false equivalence.
Who cares if your employer doesn't want to cover your anti depressants (or in hobby lobby's case only wishes to cover 80% of anti depressants FDA approved)? Why is it their obligation to cover that for you?
Cause it is part of your compensation for working there.
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Serveur: Lakshmi
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Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-07-07 13:45:59
The comparison to Sharia involves the use of religious law to dictate the secular realm.
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Bahamut.Ravael
Serveur: Bahamut
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Posts: 13641
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-07-07 13:52:03
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The comparison to Sharia involves the use of religious law to dictate the secular realm.
Yes, but actually thinking that sharia law would happen in an American business as a result of the Supreme Court ruling is delusional.
Edited for clarification.
By Jetackuu 2014-07-07 13:53:35
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The comparison to Sharia involves the use of religious law to dictate the secular realm.
Yes, but actually thinking that would happen is delusional. um...
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Ragnarok.Sekundes
Serveur: Ragnarok
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Posts: 4197
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2014-07-07 13:57:04
Who cares if your employer doesn't want to cover your anti depressants (or in hobby lobby's case only wishes to cover 80% of anti depressants FDA approved)? Why is it their obligation to cover that for you? Who cares if your employer doesn't want to cover a flu shot or cancer treatments or pregnancy?
Where does the line stop?
It is not the company's decision to decide what is covered and what is not, their ONLY responsibility is paying their part of the insurance premiums. They have no responsibility as to what is provided and don't have to feel bad about it. They shouldn't even know.
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Ragnarok.Nausi
Serveur: Ragnarok
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Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-07-07 14:03:00
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »Who cares if your employer doesn't want to cover your anti depressants (or in hobby lobby's case only wishes to cover 80% of anti depressants FDA approved)? Why is it their obligation to cover that for you? Who cares if your employer doesn't want to cover a flu shot or cancer treatments or pregnancy?
Where does the line stop?
It is not the company's decision to decide what is covered and what is not, their ONLY responsibility is paying their part of the insurance premiums. They have no responsibility as to what is provided and don't have to feel bad about it. They shouldn't even know. Wrong wrong wrong!
It's entirely their decision what they want to cover. It's your decision to decide if you want to work for them or not.
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Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-07-07 14:10:47
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The comparison to Sharia involves the use of religious law to dictate the secular realm.
Yes, but actually thinking that sharia law would happen in an American business as a result of the Supreme Court ruling is delusional.
Edited for clarification.
So the Supreme Court ruling was only for Christian businesses? Seems fair.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-07-07 14:12:43
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The comparison to Sharia involves the use of religious law to dictate the secular realm. Yes, but actually thinking that sharia law would happen in an American business as a result of the Supreme Court ruling is delusional. Edited for clarification. So the Supreme Court ruling was only for Christian businesses? Seems fair.
Sounds like exactly what our country was meant to represent, right? In all that flowing script of the time, we missed the part where it stipulated heathens need not set foot on hallowed American soil.
Bahamut.Ravael
Serveur: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13641
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-07-07 14:14:44
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The comparison to Sharia involves the use of religious law to dictate the secular realm.
Yes, but actually thinking that sharia law would happen in an American business as a result of the Supreme Court ruling is delusional.
Edited for clarification.
So the Supreme Court ruling was only for Christian businesses? Seems fair.
Lol. Yeah, because Muslim's wouldn't seek small accommodations like Hobby Lobby did. They'd go full-on Sharia Law. That totally makes sense.
Leviathan.Redherring
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 162
By Leviathan.Redherring 2014-07-07 14:16:05
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »Who cares if your employer doesn't want to cover your anti depressants (or in hobby lobby's case only wishes to cover 80% of anti depressants FDA approved)? Why is it their obligation to cover that for you? Who cares if your employer doesn't want to cover a flu shot or cancer treatments or pregnancy?
Where does the line stop?
It is not the company's decision to decide what is covered and what is not, their ONLY responsibility is paying their part of the insurance premiums. They have no responsibility as to what is provided and don't have to feel bad about it. They shouldn't even know. Wrong wrong wrong!
It's entirely their decision what they want to cover. It's your decision to decide if you want to work for them or not.
of course business>individual
Wow he isn't giving up!
George Takei: What if Muslims Owned Hobby Lobby and Tried Imposing Sharia Law on Employees?
Quote: I’ve often said that these conservatives wading into the tricky waters of claiming “religious freedom” to justify breaking (or passing) laws should really be careful what they wish for. It’s advice I’d give to all of those conservatives who are celebrating the Supreme Court’s Hobby Lobby ruling.
And based on his brilliant response to that ruling, George Takei seems to be an individual who understands this as well.
Posting his response on the website for his play Allegiance, Takei made several fantastic points concerning not only the hypocrisy of this ruling, but the dangerous precedent it could set going forward.
Takei wrote, “The ruling elevates the rights of a FOR-PROFIT CORPORATION over those of its women employees and opens the door to all manner of claims that a company can refuse services based on its owner’s religion.”
“Think about the ramifications: As Justice Ginsberg’s stinging dissent pointed out, companies run by Scientologists could refuse to cover antidepressants, and those run by Jews or Hindus could refuse to cover medications derived from pigs (such as many anesthetics, intravenous fluids, or medications coated in gelatin).” he continued.
And that’s the slippery slope for which this ruling potentially opens the door. Where will the line be drawn where you say to a company, “Sorry, but your religious beliefs aren’t protected?”
What if someone who owns a corporation is anti-vaccine? What if they then say it’s against their religious beliefs for their company to offer health care that covers vaccines? Based upon this Supreme Court ruling, they could theoretically be within their rights to claim that.
But the best point Takei made was in a direct shot at right-wing ignorance. He wrote, “In this case, the owners happen to be deeply Christian; one wonders whether the case would have come out differently if a Muslim-run chain business attempted to impose Sharia law on its employees.”
As we all know, when these conservatives talk about “religious freedoms” they’re really only referring to Christianity.
He also went on to make the point that Hobby Lobby has invested in companies which produce the morning after pill and it gets much of its inventory from China, a country where forced abortions are common.
In other words, they’re blatant hypocrites.
“Hobby Lobby is not a church. It’s a business — and a big one at that,” Takei continued. “Businesses must and should be required to comply with neutrally crafted laws of general applicability. Your boss should not have a say over your healthcare. Once the law starts permitting exceptions based on “sincerely held religious beliefs” there’s no end to the mischief and discrimination that will ensue. Indeed, this is the same logic that certain restaurants and hotels have been trying to deploy to allow proprietors to refuse service to gay couples.”
Once again, he’s absolutely right.
For some reason conservatives seem to think that a lack of options equates to “more” freedom. Before this ruling, women working at Hobby Lobby had the option to have access to these contraceptives. Now they won’t.
If the owners of Hobby Lobby reject specific types of contraceptives, that’s fine. They don’t have to use them. But now their beliefs are being imposed on women who might not share those same beliefs.
Take a good look, because that’s how an employer can determine an employee’s health care coverage. Because a woman working at Hobby Lobby now can’t get health care coverage for certain contraceptives, not because she’s against them, but because her employer is.
How exactly is that respecting her religious freedoms?
Takei also points out religion is a way many conservatives have tried justifying discrimination against homosexuals. These “religious freedom” bills that essentially give businesses the right to deny service to homosexuals based on their religious beliefs.
The bottom line is, religion has no place in government or in business. If someone wants to express their religious views to others, they need to start a church – not a for-profit corporation.
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