Random Politics & Religion #00

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Random Politics & Religion #00
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-12 13:05:16
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Government incompetence.

A combination of things, actually.

The government didn't dig these mines or unearth this contamination, for one.

Two, it looks like the community near the mines didn't WANT the EPA to do a "full" cleanup project fearing it would hurt them economically.

Three, it appears that it was at least partially a crew not of EPA workers, but EPA-contracted workers, that caused the spill. Which is yet another instance of people blaming government workers for private businesses contracting with the government. Once work is contracted out, corners get cut.

That said, this is all on the EPA's head one way or another no matter how many points I make, because they shouldn't be bowing to pressure from anyone to not handle things in the best way possible, and they didn't. They deferred to people worried about short-term economic impact, and now those people have long-term impact.

Which is what happens when you half-*** things, regardless of the reason.

Edit: Though I will say, pursuant to Jet's post; where were the people who dug these mines? Where was the money they made off of these mines to help clean up the mess they made?
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-12 13:06:01
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Ramyrez said: »
I'd love to know what's going on, but I'm seeing nothing on any reputable news sites I regularly visit...about the EPA/environmental issues...?

That's because you probably only visit liberal rags that have interest in keeping it out of the news cycle.

Or because it's got a lot of shock value and very little substance.

I'm curious why a handful of low level EPA workers were in a position to release such a large quantity of waste accidentally. Why was it pooled so close to the river or at all? Why was it able to be released by accident?

Government incompetence.

So, if someone had something critically important plugged into an extension cord that was all tangled up in the middle of the walkway and someone tripped on the cord and it came unplugged, would you blame the guy that tripped or the guy that creates an avoidable and dangerous situation by using the cord?

I'm guessing if the tables were reversed, it would still be the government's fault, right?
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By Jetackuu 2015-08-12 13:06:17
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Saw the yellow river thing the other day. We're not going to talk about how that mine produced $8M worth of ore and that the EPA had been pushing to make it a superfund site to prioritize cleanup as it had been leaking toxic chemicals for some time but were denied?

We're not going to talk about all that but for some reason are going to blame the EPA when they were trying to clean up something that shouldn't have been their responsibility to do in the first place?

Where's all the "personal" and "corporate" responsibility here? Instead of relying on "big brother" who had an accident?

*** brilliant.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-08-12 13:10:25
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Oh right, we can't blame the EPA because they never should have cleaned up the mess in the first place.

Makes perfect sense. If you thought carrying clear water for the administration was fun , now it comes in yellow/orange.
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-12 13:12:40
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Oh right, we can't blame the EPA because they never should have cleaned up the mess in the first place.

We can blame the way they handled it, but you'd better damn well be better to further blame the people who actually caused the problem, profited from it, and then danced merrily away to the bank, leaving the taxpayer to foot the bill.
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2015-08-12 13:14:20
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Looks like we have tripped upon yet another topic nausi knows nothing about, but he sure will pretend to talk about it. Hopefully they will get the mess cleaned up, and hopefully next time they will listen to the EPA.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-08-12 13:16:26
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What problem you mean the 100s of miles of river scape that are now filled with toxic chemicals?

What did they fine BP for that oil spill? 18 billion? I guess the EPA workers should all start emptying their pockets no?
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-08-12 13:19:12
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
What problem you mean the 100s of miles of river scape that are now filled with toxic chemicals?

What did they fine BP for that oil spill? 18 billion? I guess the EPA workers should all start emptying their pockets no?


Don't blame the people who created and buried the landmine, blame the people who stepped on it. Brilliant.
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-12 13:19:56
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
What problem you mean the 100s of miles of river scape that are now filled with toxic chemicals?

What did they fine BP for that oil spill? 18 billion? I guess the EPA workers should all start emptying their pockets no?

...did the EPA dig the mine? Profit from it?

No. The EPA was doing their best to clean it up within the foolish confines that they (also foolishly)agreed with the local authorities/businesses to follow.

And yeah. They're paying millions of taxpayer dollars to clean up a private business' mess.

So I guess...be happy? That seems to be your desired outcome?
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By Jetackuu 2015-08-12 13:29:42
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Because accidentally breaching a debris dam that's holding back toxic water is a damnable offense!
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By Jetackuu 2015-08-12 13:31:32
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Ramyrez said: »
The correct answer is "this was a lose-lose situation no matter what because we're using taxpayer money to fix private industry's *** up.
Not to mention that apparently the "fix" they had planned was even a sure-fire thing.

http://www.vox.com/2015/8/10/9126853/epa-mine-spill-animas

But the cleanup that they had wanted to do would have been a much better way of handling it.

So yeah, half assing it because reasons.
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2015-08-12 13:31:33
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
What problem you mean the 100s of miles of river scape that are now filled with toxic chemicals?

What did they fine BP for that oil spill? 18 billion? I guess the EPA workers should all start emptying their pockets no?


Don't blame the people who created and buried the landmine, blame the people who stepped on it. Brilliant.

Stepped on it, more like set it off. When you know where it is, stepping on it is deliberate.

Whoops I meant to cut the green wire but I'm colorblind.
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By Jetackuu 2015-08-12 13:34:09
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Stepped on it, more like set it off.
Yes, by stepping on it. Do you also not know how landmines work?
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-08-12 14:06:40
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Ramyrez said: »
...did the EPA dig the mine? Profit from it?

No. The EPA was doing their best to clean it up within the foolish confines that they (also foolishly)agreed with the local authorities/businesses to follow.

And yeah. They're paying millions of taxpayer dollars to clean up a private business' mess.

"The mine has been inactive since 1923."

"About 1 million gallons of wastewater from Colorado's Gold King Mine began spilling into the Animas River on Wednesday when an EPA-supervised cleanup crew accidentally breached a debris dam that had formed inside the mine."

*from the abc news story posted earlier
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-12 14:10:09
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Well then throw "dragging their feet" on the list of problems from the EPA. But digging the mine and releasing the chemicals in the first place is not among those problems.

EPA-supervised likely means there was an EPA person on site and the contractors are the ones who *** up. But either way, really. It's a god damn mess that never should have happened, and wouldn't have if people weren't more concerned with money than doing it right on AT LEAST two levels. And that's giving a pass to the industry of a century ago who tore up the mine in the first place due to the timeframe.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-08-12 14:24:05
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I think I got a pretty good description of the culprit for the wanted poster...

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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-08-12 14:32:09
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epa updates
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-12 14:37:08
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
I think I got a pretty good description of the culprit for the wanted poster...


C'mon, man. They had like 75 years of progress in how to kill miners from the time of that guy and the time this mine closed.


(website credits this as 8/1923)
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-08-12 15:05:18
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I love seeing long, heated arguments where apparently nobody had a clue what the actual story was. Good stuff.
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By Ramyrez 2015-08-12 15:25:04
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I love seeing long, heated arguments where apparently nobody had a clue what the actual story was. Good stuff.

Like I said before.

Actual news gets pushed below the fold in election years.

And -- apparently -- they're all election years now!
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2015-08-12 15:39:29
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Oh right, we can't blame the EPA because they never should have cleaned up the mess in the first place.

Makes perfect sense. If you thought carrying clear water for the administration was fun , now it comes in yellow/orange.

For another year and a half every government agency is flawless and every excuse in the world will be made for their *** ups and/or criminal activities, by liberals. When a Republican wins the White House we can then hold them accountable.
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2015-08-12 16:07:26
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So who here is saying the EPA isn't at least partially responsible? Why ignore the fact that an intensive cleanup was on the table but, like with any environmental issue, the people didn't give a ***until they were stewing in the mess? But yes, Red v Blue, ya?!
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2015-08-12 17:34:25
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Jimmy Carter has cancer.
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By Siren.Mosin 2015-08-12 17:39:14
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he's also 90...
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By Garuda.Chanti 2015-08-12 18:53:06
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Jeb Bush Is Trying to Blame the Iraq Crisis on Hillary Clinton
He just set a new standard for chutzpah.

Mother Jones (but don't worry King, this is one of the more stern and less screamy then most of theirs. And their screamy is sedate compared to Wonkette's average.)

Quote:
Jeb Bush is trying to pull off the mother of all chutzpah moves by blaming Hillary Clinton for today's troubles in Iraq and the rise of ISIS.

Yes, you heard that right: The brother of the fellow who invaded Iraq on false premises, and who did so without a coherent and comprehensive plan for what to do after the defeat of Saddam Hussein, is trying to jujitsu this issue and heave his hefty family baggage onto the shoulders of the leading Democratic 2016 contender.

Three months ago, Jeb Bush couldn't give a straight answer to a simple question about the Iraq War—a stumble that raised serious questions about his quest for the Republican presidential nomination. How could he be unprepared for such an obvious matter? And now—when he's not faring so well in the polls and trailing Donald Trump and others—he's attempting a new tack: pointing his finger at Clinton. Though this stunt wins Bush attention—the New York Times front-paged his attack with the headline, "Bush Asserts a Clinton Role in Iraq Decline"—it's absurd.

n a speech at the Reagan library in California on Tuesday night, Bush declared:
Quote:

No leader or policymaker involved will claim to have gotten everything right in the region, Iraq especially. Yet in a long experience that includes failures of intelligence and military setbacks, one moment stands out in memory as the turning point we had all been waiting for. And that was the surge of military and diplomatic operations that turned events toward victory. It was a success, brilliant, heroic, and costly. And this nation will never forget the courage and sacrifice that made it all possible.

So why was the success of the surge followed by a withdrawal from Iraq, leaving not even the residual force that commanders and the joint chiefs knew was necessary? That premature withdrawal was the fatal error, creating the void that ISIS moved in to fill—and that Iran has exploited to the full as well. ISIS grew while the United States disengaged from the Middle East and ignored the threat. And where was Secretary of State Clinton in all of this? Like the president himself, she had opposed the surge, then joined in claiming credit for its success, then stood by as that hard-won victory by American and allied forces was thrown away. In all her record-setting travels, she stopped by Iraq exactly one time.
First off, there remains a debate over whether the Iraq surge worked. Putting that aside, let's focus on the question Bush asked: Why was the surge followed by a withdrawal of US troops from Iraq? The answer is simple: President George W. Bush arranged for that withdrawal.

In December 2008, Bush signed a Status of Forces Agreement with then-Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. At a ceremony in Baghdad, Bush proclaimed:

Quote:
The agreement provides American troops and Defense Department officials with authorizations and protections to continue supporting Iraq's democracy once the UN mandate expires at the end of this year. This agreement respects the sovereignty and the authority of Iraq's democracy. The agreement lays out a framework for the withdrawal of American forces in Iraq—a withdrawal that is possible because of the success of the surge. These agreements result from careful consultations with the prime minister and the officials of Iraq, as well as our diplomats and our military commanders. They represent a shared vision on the way forward in Iraq.
It's undeniable: Jeb's bro okayed and negotiated the removal of US troops from Iraq following the surge.

Jen Bush and neocons have argued that President Barack Obama—and now Bush is adding Clinton to the list—should have somehow subsequently managed to renegotiate a deal that would have allowed a sizeable force of US troops to stay in Iraq, and that presumably this would have prevented ISIS from sweeping in and gaining control of parts of a fractured country governed by a corrupt and inept regime. In May, Bush, while campaigning, claimed, "We had an agreement that [Obama] could have signed that would have kept 10,000 troops—less than we have in Korea—that could have created the stability that would have allowed for Iraq to progress."

As Politifact.com noted, that statement was "mostly false." When Obama entered office, he inherited the withdrawal plan that George Bush had drawn up with Maliki. The Obama administration did discuss with the Iraq government the option of leaving more troops behind. But in Iraq, that was not a politically popular idea, and the government in Baghdad refused to provide the customary immunity for US soldiers that would be based there. As the Los Angeles Times reported in July 2011, "Iraqi government officials are divided on whether the Americans should stay. Of the country's major ethnic and religious groups, only the Kurds have come out publicly in favor of US forces staying. In private, Maliki is thought to want troops to stay, but his Islamic Dawa Party released a statement in mid-June declaring that American troops should honor the agreement to leave at the end of the year." There never was a plan that Obama could have signed to keep 10,000 troops in Iraq. Without the Maliki government willing to bend on immunity, the negotiations between Washington and Baghdad broke down. What remained was the accord that George Bush signed and hailed.

The main problem, Jeb Bush said in his speech, was not the initial invasion and not the Bush-Cheney administration's incompetent handling of the post-invasion challenges. It was, he insisted, Obama and Clinton's failure "to be the peacemakers." He added, "It was a case of blind haste to get out, and to call the tragic consequences somebody else’s problem. Rushing away from danger can be every bit as unwise as rushing into danger, and the costs have been grievous." Not surprisingly, Bush linked this failure to the "terrible" Iran nuclear deal currently in the works.

Obama and Clinton didn't rush out of Iraq. After the invasion, which was supposed to lead to a war that would last months at most, George Bush had several years to deal with the mess he created. He failed at that task, and then he could not negotiate a deal that would keep US troops there. (And who knows if that really would have helped?) When he exited the White House, Iraq's government and military were neither truly stable nor able to protect the nation.

Obama and Clinton, when they took office, were bequeathed a situation with few good policy options. When someone torches a house, you don't blame the people who move in afterward and try to repair the damage for the fire. Jeb Bush could pick an honest policy fight with Obama and Clinton about moves they made in the Middle East. Instead, he's mounting an assault of distraction and false accusation that ignores basic historical facts. In essence, he's saying, "In the end, my brother didn't screw things up, you did!" Given that the invasion of Iraq was perhaps one of the most profound geopolitical miscalculations in recent decades, Jeb Bush certainly has a tough job slinking through this territory. Apparently he has decided the best defense is a strong offense, even if built on untruths. But when it comes to the Iraq War, that's a family tradition.
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By fonewear 2015-08-12 19:01:01
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I love seeing long, heated arguments where apparently nobody had a clue what the actual story was. Good stuff.

Now you know how I feel all the time !
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By fonewear 2015-08-12 19:17:27
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I wish they did more debates nothing really happens in between the debates.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-08-12 19:49:02
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fonewear said: »
I wish they did more debates nothing really happens in between the debates.

Do passive-aggressive Twitter wars count?
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2015-08-12 19:52:09
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
So who here is saying the EPA isn't at least partially responsible?

can you? we need someone to fight with......
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By fonewear 2015-08-12 19:58:03
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
fonewear said: »
I wish they did more debates nothing really happens in between the debates.

Do passive-aggressive Twitter wars count?

Almost !
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