Random Politics & Religion #00

I did, thanks for bringing that to my attention.

I want you to use that imagination of yours in a more productive way and consider this:
There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world.
Adultery, theft etc. are common all over the world. Do you honestly think beheadings and all that jazz is happening on a scale that you think or you imply it is?

Its such a big world. I don't think you guys are exercising your imaginations enough to really consider what 1/4ths of the world's population means, and how many different cultures and ethnic groups fall under that 1.8 billion.. You see a couple of videos of someone somewhere on earth who is muslim getting whipped by Muslims or beheaded and you scale that up to encompass all sharia following Muslims... its madness.. its insanity and its lazy.


Also you don't seem to understand what Sharia means.
There are different countries with different laws.

The law law.

No, just in the countries whose punishments for said crimes are as what they say they are.

People like to dress it up as a religious law because the law of the land is determined by the law of the religion. But in the end of the day, the law of the land is the law of the land.

If a religion requires beheading for adultery, so be it. All I care about is what the country's law says the punishment for adultery is. Who cares what that religion says, honestly?

It's not that. It's what that region's religion demands of those zealots to do.

If a Muslim beheads another person because they are not Muslim, then of course you are going to get people thinking that Muslims demand that non-Muslims be beheaded for not following their religion. So, what should you do about it?

You are given two options: Either change the religion, or change the message. Stop demanding beheading, or stop showing them.

I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that Shariah is a crime against humanity plain and simple. You don't sound like someone living in the mideast so I'm sure you cannot see or refuse to see the dangers associated with Islam. I'm sure there are wonderful Muslim ppl all over the world yet that does not make Sharia divine in any way, shape or form. 1400yrs ago? Maybe. Today in modern civilization? It's a crime itself.

It is my understanding that he is from Dubai. While technically in the Middle East, they are the more reasonable population to deal with. At least not willing to ignore what you say because you aren't like them.

My personal opinion though. I have visited only 3 cities in the region, and the people in Dubai are the ones who actually treated me somewhat decently.

Unfortunately its the opposite.
Islam isn't a danger to the world.
Politicizing religion is. It leads to divisions. To zealots and someone who eventually comes to use it as inspirational material to get people behind them. This is part of the nature of mankind. Throughout history people have risen to power and used religion or culture to justify their ambitions.

War and the aftermath of it are putting people into despair. When that happens they will listen to anyone who offers them hope and even moreso to someone who offers them revenge.

Its a cycle, and pointing the finger at religion, any of them, is just looking for the easiest and quickest solution and it further delays addressing the real underlying reasons and causes - inequality, psychopathy, greed, thirst for power and most importantly; human laziness. If we weren't so lazy and passive we would REALLY take a look at the other side and catagorize things into their proper groups and be logical and rationale about it.

Its unacceptable to belong to the 21st century and claim "those" people and their beliefs are inherently and intrinsically bad.

We're all humans and we all have our crazies.

Also, I sound like a typical person from my country. Nothing special.

All religions(but not spirituality) are a hindrance in the era we're in.

We need to appreciate that the era we live in isn't the same for everyone living in it and different cultures and societies are in different states of flux. The greatest challenge of globalization is reaching a solution that fits all and oppresses none. It starts by understanding while we are all fundamentally the same, we have differences and they should be accepted and not rejected as long as no one oppresses the other and no human rights violations are being tolerated.

The middle east and Europe are actually growing closer together rather than apart. Consider where you live and where I do, and the conversation we are having. I'm nothing exceptional. There are literally 1,000,000 others like me in my country and in Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco especially there are 10's of millions more who think like and feel the same way I do. Actually, they're probably even more liberal than I am.

Almost all Lebanese are more liberal than me too. Syrians, Kuwaitis, Bahrainis, Omanis, Jordanians, Egyptians.. all pretty much like me to some varying degree but nowhere near the ISIS or Taliban schools of intolerance and extremism.

That really just leaves places that are torn up by war.

Like if the US had been invaded and destroyed by the USSR and then by another country 10 years later - I'm sure the Texans would be the resistance and their rallying call to action would center somewhere around Jesus and a holy war against the invaders. Maybe not, but its not a far stretch of the imagination.

I'm not making it a matter of extremism in this case. But all religions as a whole.

This however is an interesting concept. It has to do with that historical evolution of civilizations that we talked about some weeks ago.

I believe in individuality and respect the difference between each and every one of us. I understand each Islamic nation is also different yet I do NOT see Sharia as something humane cuz it definitely is not. All I have is sympathy for those indoctrinated and shackled to religion forced upon them from birth. Seeing such taking root and promoted into western civilization is like returning humanity back to the stone age.

You realize this happens in christian places too to varying degrees?

Yes but ppl wind up deciding for themselves what they choose to believe and are not discriminated against to the point of Death for Apostasy. Freedom > Everything including religion itself.

Which parts of Sharia, as you understand it, bother you?
I know the most unpopular ones are as follows:
1. Stoning - Although Zeig explained this in great detail and his opinion of it is pretty mainstream in Saudi, I don't believe in Stoning nor do I believe it was ever prescribed for an Adulterer or Adulteress. However, I do believe the whipping is prescribed and I do believe it is just. As crazy and as horrible as that sounds to you, the same conditions Zeig described apply. 4 people need to swear 3 times that they saw the penis penetrate clearly - a condition that is impossible to be met unless it happened in broad daylight. Islam makes it a clear point it seeks to preserve the family unit and not allow human beings to be reduced to their primal states and become like animals, chasing their whims and desires.
On the flipside, when intercourse is legal (with your wife/husband) God in the Quran makes it a clear point that it is to be enjoyed and is something good, not bad. (contrasts highly to what a lot of christian friends who were taught sex is bad and all things of the flesh should be frowned upon. Always blows their mind that Islam actually encourages very healthy and active sexual relationships - i mean, its grounds for divorce if a Husband or Wife refuse to keep their partner satisfied.

2. Cutting off the hand - need to understand when this applies. I talked about it earlier in this thread. only applies to anyone caught stealing for sport. If you have a need for sustenance, food, shelter, medication etc., it is not classified as theft in Islam. However such an occurrence would be sufficient grounds for inquiry into how the ruler is spending the state's wealth and if it is proven the ruler had knowledge that there were people in need, it is grounds for removal of the ruler unless he fixes the situation, and even then if it happens again he will be found incompetent.

Also the above punishments are called "Limits". Meaning the punishment can't go beyond them. It is entirely up to the victim who has rights and the judge to pass lesser sentences, and the Quran encourages Mercy every time. Mercy is always better than punishment is a repeated theme over and over again, as is Justice.

Betrayal is surely despicable, but scarring someone for that is just disgusting savagery.

There are indeed some Muslims who believe the punishment for apostasy is death. However, there are more who believe "La Ikrah fe el deen" - a verse from the Quran that translates to "No Compulsion in religion".

You and I both have an issue with people who identify as Muslim and believe people who leave the religion should be killed. I, and many others like me, challenge them using Islam's main source for sharia; the Quran. Maybe you should read what it actually says, in full context, and argue with those same people who claim to be Muslim and school them?

Weren't some of the most prosperous islamic empires inclusive towards other religions(although sometimes through tax)?

The proper prescribed way of whipping is as follows (people don't always follow this)
- A book needs to be placed under the armpit of the person doing the whipping. It sits between his armpit and the side of his rib cage.
- Only the elbow can move. Meaning not enough actual movement or force can be generated for it to even hurt.
- The point of the whipping isn't to be painful, its to be humiliating.
- Again, it just doesn't happen even in that way because a girl could have a skirt on, grinding a guy on the floor - but unless they can see the penis itself penetrate, its not considered adultery.
- its a deterrent. (There was a guy and girl caught in Nigeria recently and the guy's penis was stuck inside the woman. Its on youtube. The husband came and insisted on seeing the penis in his wife's vagina. but he couldn't see it because they were in a spoon position. lol, i don't know if they got whipped or what happened, was just funny to watch)

Do you not see incarceration as a means of discipline sufficient enough to deter crime? You could be imprisoned indefinitely for the remainder of your life depending on how severe the crime commited was. You could also be put to death in some cases. Does that not suffice for being Law enough? Do we really need to go beyond and torture criminals? Did women not bring us to be here on earth. So why are they themselves seen as less than equal? Without your mother you do not even exist. Women in all reality should have even more rights then men cuz they themselves are the easiest of being made victims to another.

In Islam the state takes care of those who cannot take care of themselves. One of the pillars of Islam is Zakah (Zakat plural). It is mandatory on all muslims who can afford it and is basically a charity tax on anything they own that they have not used in a year.

Because Islam does not impose itself as a belief on those who reside within its borders, for the non-believers there is a tax called "Jiziyah". This is a direct tax. And again, it doesn't apply on those who cannot afford it. However, the state still takes care of them even if they are not muslim. So muslim or not, you benefit from the state's social programs and contribute to it if you can.

I'm not without qualms concerning stoning myself, and have had discussions about it with friends (and listened to Adnan lol). But it's not mainstream just in Saudi, it's the mainstream opinion everywhere throughout the history of Islam (just like apostasy). And while I don't want to be part of any stoning (the narration that this law is based off encouraged the adulterers to repent in secret), I have to adopt the mainstream opinion when discussing Islam to be fair and not inject my personal bias into the discussion. I dislike apologetics.

That young girl in India died from a gang rape on a bus. If no witnesses. Does that mean that it never happened? Ofc not. We have scientific methods to prove one way or the other and don't rely upon 500 witnesses in a dark alley. That's absolutely insane to me and extremely dangerous for women living under such laws. There are so many issues with Sharia in modern times that it doesn't make any sense for it to even exist. It's old and obsolete laws based upon life and technology 1400yrs ago. In the modern age laws and technology have progressed to a much higher standard based upon facts, evidence, equality and human rights.

On Prison: Yes, it is an option. As I mentioned, the Judge can and 99.99999% of the time pass modern sentences such as prison time.
Not all agree with it. Some scholars argue that it is too far a punishment for many things and is more brutal than some older punishments. But I stress again that the modern Islamic world believes prison sentences are the way to go. I don't personally believe that. I think the world needs to start doing things to correct individuals and improve their mental status, and punishments should be a deterrent and not serve to just cause pain.

On Torture:
Islam has 0 tolerance for torture. Even captured enemies cannot be tortured.

On Women:
In all serious circles, historically Islam is recognized as really pushing women's rights. That's going to sound at odds with what you probably know or heard.
Consider these facts: 1,400 years ago when women weren't even recognized as human beings, the Quran gave them inheritance. When the arabs were burying their daughters pre-Islam because they saw them as a burder, the Quran came and made Islam at odds with a practice that was common amongst the arabs by stating it is an abomination to bury your daughters. You mentioned mothers, have you not heard the Islamic saying "Heaven is under the feet of your mothers"? Have you not heard the Islamic saying and prophet's hadith "Your mother, your mother, your mother" when he was asked by a companion "how do i get to heaven?"?

If the inheritance law bothers you (where men get more than women) you have to consider it in the context that a brother, father, son, grandson (males of the family) are commanded and obliged to spend on their family and most importantly their sisters, mothers, nieces, daughters. That means that their female family members should need for nothing, and that the male's money/wealth is spent on the family. HOWEVER, Islam gives the female members inheritance still and they are NOT required to spend it on anyone else but themselves. (women have the upper hand in Islam in Inheritance)

On Polygamy - Islam doesn't believe women should be reduced to mistresses and "one-night stands". It guarantees women a husband. and every wife has equal rights and he's not even allowed to make one feel jealous of the other. If properly practiced and adhered to the laws prescribed in the Quran, it would be VERY hard for a man to have more than one wife today because its a different age and era. Women want exclusivity, it wasn't always that way even in the west. Islam protects a woman's rights by not allowing the male to have sexual intercourse with her unless its through marriage, meaning she has the rights of: Muqadem (advanced sum of wealth) Mu'akher (future sum of wealth in case of a divorce or past a certain period of time, usually 5 years into the marriage in modern times) a house, and this will blow your mind - he has to lay with her in her bed and if he doesn't please her sexually she can legally seek a divorce and say the reason. Now is this at odds with Arabism and Pakistani/Indians Muslims? absolutely. There are cultural relics pretending to be Islamic, but they aren't. Just like some white supremasists pretend like its a christian thing.

So *** up

Rape isnt the same as sexual intercourse.
Sexual intercourse, speaking in worldy sense, has no victims - on an islamic spiritual level, they wronged themselves.

Rape is a like the worst crime in Islam. Its beyond even the "Fa7ishat" - abominations. And no, the girl doesn't need anyone else but herself as a witness but that isn't proof enough, just like in the west, for a conviction.

Islam doesn't shy away from talking about sexual intercourse like it was some abomination of the flesh. It will go into details when necessary. It doesn't consider sexual intercourse to be filthy, it approaches the matter with certainty and apologetically.

Ok then, assuming depending on Islamic nation, you're saying. What I read is that a rape victim requires 4 witnesses or she is stoned to death. That is KRAY-zee

I challenge that it was the mainstream throughout the history of Islam as I challenge a lot of things that are remnants of an Umuyad empire that was illegitimate and an internal overthrow. And that's coming from a Sunni Malaki Hashemite

She doesn't need 4 witnesses for rape. Again rape and sexual intercourse are two different things.
You have false rape claims in the west don't you? How is it dealt with over there? Its exactly the same over here. She says it was rape, he says it wasn't forced. They investigate - a verdict is passed based on the evidence.

May I add:
-Wives:
"the best among you is the best to their wives"
-Daughters:
"whoever raises two girls (to adulthood), he and I will come on the day of judgement as close as these - and he pointed with his middle and index fingers"

There are plenty of narrations that encourage taking good care of the female members of your family.