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U.S. Climate Has Already Changed, Study Finds
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-05-13 18:56:53
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Over-saturation, even of elements found naturally as part of the life process, can cause it to become a pollutant.
Particularly when it's created through processes that aren't natural to the life process.
They become toxic and overbearing.
Earth has had 3000ppm+ naturally and life flourished on the planet. Historically 1000ppm is natural and well within the tolerance of the planet. We are freaking out over anything above 280ppm.
Agenda driven much.
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 6558
By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-05-13 19:04:21
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Over-saturation, even of elements found naturally as part of the life process, can cause it to become a pollutant.
Particularly when it's created through processes that aren't natural to the life process.
They become toxic and overbearing.
Earth has had 3000ppm+ naturally and life flourished on the planet. Historically 1000ppm is natural and well within the tolerance of the planet. We are freaking out over anything above 280ppm.
Agenda driven much.
What the planet can tolerate and what works for human society are completely different things.
You say "Life Flourished" But 99.5% Of all life on Earth has died.
I think I said it in an earlier thread, Conservationism isn't about saving the Planet, we can't do anything to this planet it hasn't survived half a dozen times already. Asteroid Impacts, Supervolcanic eruptions spewing molten radioactive Cobalt into the atmosphere, real runaway greenhouse events. All of this has happened, often in quick succession.
Conservatism is about what's best for human society. Even a minor shift in sea temperatures has the possibility to change weather patterns relatively drastically. Crops can fail, massive famine can sweep parts of the Earth, destabilizing regions already on the cusp of breaking apart.
But you know, some Tubeworms survived for a while, which means *** it, destabilize human society.
 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 4322
By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-05-13 19:05:25
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »If the science was actually settled, we wouldn't be seeing research papers and studies about the changing climates all over the globe, or the papers and studies that talk about what kind of footprint humanity has had on it, or if it's all happening naturally.
What people are actually arguing for with the Anthropogenic Global Warming, is that we've effectively had our hand in helping to create this environmental mess we're in, specifically for our own well being.
The data collected and examined comes from the industrial revolution, where CO2 emissions and other pollutants reached an all time unnatural high for that period, and again when companies added additional waste to production, which emitted more pollutant green house gases than what could have ever happened naturally.
Unfortunately, we don't have another planet Earth to spare to make an absolute comparison or to use in an experiment. But researchers can still find a way to simulate the effect using working scaled down models of cities, and country-sides for analysis.
Hell, you can see pollution domes over large metropolitan cities that act like an insulator. You can see the effect of this warming in large scale events where the average temperature rises when there are more people in one place, than if it was sparsely populated.
Those are two totally different things. CO2 =/= pollution. CO2 is transparent in the visible light spectrum, you would never see a dome made of CO2. CO2 is not industrial waste nor carbon ash, it's a natural gas that's part of the life process. If humans had never existed this planet would still have high amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere, as much as 3000ppm according to historical records. Hell over the full lifetime of this planet 1000ppm is far more normal then 300ppm, we're currently in an ice age.
I'm an avid environmental conservationist, I really don't like the wanton destruction of so much natural habitat. Because of this I actually agree that having the government place regulations on what can be put into the environment is important. That doesn't automatically make me a blind supporter of something that has yet to be demonstrated true. Nearly 4bn USD to climate related research, and how much is given to environmental conservation? Parks and refuges are critically underfunded and understaffed and can't scape together enough money to manage government owned land, but we sure have plenty of it to throw around. For someone who claims to be an avid environmental conservationist, you're pretty daft.
Excessive CO2 emissions become a pollutant when the natural environment can no longer handle what's being introduced, and thus becomes toxic to that which survives on it. CO2 in a natural state is nigh invisible to the human eye, as is carbon monoxide, both which happen naturally, and both are classified pollutants.
Trees and other plant life survive on CO2, and yet, can become polluted by that same life source, when in excess of it. We've cut down and bulldozed nearly half of the world's population of trees, and countless other plant life, causing an unnatural excess of CO2 emissions that can't be sustained or converted back into oxygen.
Excess CO2 in water? Makes it poisonous. Kills aquatic life, and life that depends on aquatic creatures for sustenance. But it's ok, and isn't really true, despite all the evidence that supports it, as well as eco-biologists that pointed it out, and study it, etc. because it's a natural gas.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-13 19:06:28
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Over-saturation, even of elements found naturally as part of the life process, can cause it to become a pollutant.
Particularly when it's created through processes that aren't natural to the life process.
They become toxic and overbearing.
Earth has had 3000ppm+ naturally and life flourished on the planet. Historically 1000ppm is natural and well within the tolerance of the planet. We are freaking out over anything above 280ppm.
Agenda driven much. Fact checking...
Ok right now it's around 400ppm or .04%. Historical high was at 7,000ppm during the Cambrian period about 500 million years ago. Historical low was at 180 ppm during the Quaternary glaciation.
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Lakshmi.Saevel
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-05-13 19:14:01
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Over-saturation, even of elements found naturally as part of the life process, can cause it to become a pollutant.
Particularly when it's created through processes that aren't natural to the life process.
They become toxic and overbearing.
Earth has had 3000ppm+ naturally and life flourished on the planet. Historically 1000ppm is natural and well within the tolerance of the planet. We are freaking out over anything above 280ppm.
Agenda driven much.
What the planet can tolerate and what works for human society are completely different things.
You say "Life Flourished" But 99.5% Of all life on Earth has died.
I think I said it in an earlier thread, Conservationism isn't about saving the Planet, we can't do anything to this planet it hasn't survived half a dozen times already. Asteroid Impacts, Supervolcanic eruptions spewing molten radioactive Cobalt into the atmosphere, real runaway greenhouse events. All of this has happened, often in quick succession.
Conservatism is about what's best for human society. Even a minor shift in sea temperatures has the possibility to change weather patterns relatively drastically. Crops can fail, massive famine can sweep parts of the Earth, destabilizing regions already on the cusp of breaking apart.
But you know, some Tubeworms survived for a while, which means *** it, destabilize human society.
Might want to go check your data, at least ChaosX did.
You realize that CO2 is plant food? Higher CO2 concentrations are directly responsible for faster and larger plant growth. Greenhouse growers use this fact to maximize their harvests.
You also realize that the mass extinction your talking about happened at under 200ppm CO2 right? Here is a little bit of information, at 180ppm photosynthesis starts to shut down and under 180ppm you get mass extinction of all plant life on the earth. We were that close to having all complex life on the planet die off, and it wasn't due to global warming but due to an ice age.
I don't like using personal attacks, but your plain ignorant if you think high CO2 is bad for plants. With our current biosphere 1000ppm would be about right for us. And btw CO2 toxicity doesn't start happening until north of 5000ppm for most plants with some being able to handle 9000ppm+.
Really do liberals / progressives ever actually do their own critical thinking or do they just rely on sound bites handed to them by per-approved media sources?
Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-05-13 19:14:49
While life on the planet 500 million years ago could tolerate 7,000ppm of CO2, that's still 500 million years of evolution and adaptation of CO2 tolerance reduction not being accounted for.
Most of the current species on the planet can't tolerate those levels of CO2, let alone anything over 500ppm.
You're also ignoring the environmental differences between 500 million years ago, and today.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-13 19:17:19
Quote: It is currently rising at a rate of approximately 2 ppm/year and accelerating. An estimated 30–40% of the CO2 released by humans into the atmosphere dissolves into oceans, rivers and lakes which contributes to ocean acidification. The present concentration of CO2 in Earth's atmosphere is the highest in the past 800,000 years and likely the highest in the past 20 million years. Although CO2 concentrations have varied significantly over the course of Earth's 4.7 billion year geologic history and ancient-earth biospheres, the scientific consensus is that the present-day biosphere can be damaged if CO2 concentrations surpass 550 parts per million.
Sources:
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/305/5682/362
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/001670379400354O
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5314592.stm
http://www.grida.no/publications/other/ipcc_tar/?src=/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/fig3-2.htm
http://sei-us.org/Publications_PDF/SEI-WorkingPaperUS-0909.pdf (PDF)
Lakshmi.Saevel
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Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-05-13 19:18:07
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Over-saturation, even of elements found naturally as part of the life process, can cause it to become a pollutant.
Particularly when it's created through processes that aren't natural to the life process.
They become toxic and overbearing.
Earth has had 3000ppm+ naturally and life flourished on the planet. Historically 1000ppm is natural and well within the tolerance of the planet. We are freaking out over anything above 280ppm.
Agenda driven much. Fact checking...
Ok right now it's around 400ppm or .04%. Historical high was at 7,000ppm during the Cambrian period about 500 million years ago. Historical low was at 180 ppm during the Quaternary glaciation.
Known as the Cambrian Explosion for a reason.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion
All life on the planet flourished and we have a greater biodiversity then anything since. The rapid and high plant growth acted as a catalyst for all other life to diversify. It all ended when the temperature plummeted and CO2 levels hit sub 200ppm which caused mass plant reductions which in turn caused a domino effect up the food chain which killed off most of the life on earth.
By Jetackuu 2014-05-13 19:19:03
solution: kill a few billion humans
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Posts: 6558
By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-05-13 19:19:29
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Over-saturation, even of elements found naturally as part of the life process, can cause it to become a pollutant.
Particularly when it's created through processes that aren't natural to the life process.
They become toxic and overbearing.
Earth has had 3000ppm+ naturally and life flourished on the planet. Historically 1000ppm is natural and well within the tolerance of the planet. We are freaking out over anything above 280ppm.
Agenda driven much.
What the planet can tolerate and what works for human society are completely different things.
You say "Life Flourished" But 99.5% Of all life on Earth has died.
I think I said it in an earlier thread, Conservationism isn't about saving the Planet, we can't do anything to this planet it hasn't survived half a dozen times already. Asteroid Impacts, Supervolcanic eruptions spewing molten radioactive Cobalt into the atmosphere, real runaway greenhouse events. All of this has happened, often in quick succession.
Conservatism is about what's best for human society. Even a minor shift in sea temperatures has the possibility to change weather patterns relatively drastically. Crops can fail, massive famine can sweep parts of the Earth, destabilizing regions already on the cusp of breaking apart.
But you know, some Tubeworms survived for a while, which means *** it, destabilize human society.
Might want to go check your data, at least ChaosX did.
You realize that CO2 is plant food? Higher CO2 concentrations are directly responsible for faster and larger plant growth. Greenhouse growers use this fact to maximize their harvests.
You also realize that the mass extinction your talking about happened at under 200ppm CO2 right? Here is a little bit of information, at 180ppm photosynthesis starts to shut down and under 180ppm you get mass extinction of all plant life on the earth. We were that close to having all complex life on the planet die off, and it wasn't due to global warming but due to an ice age.
I don't like using personal attacks, but your plain ignorant if you think high CO2 is bad for plants. With our current biosphere 1000ppm would be about right for us. And btw CO2 toxicity doesn't start happening until north of 5000ppm for most plants with some being able to handle 9000ppm+.
Really do liberals / progressives ever actually do their own critical thinking or do they just rely on sound bites handed to them by per-approved media sources?
First of all, I'm not a Liberal or a Progressive.
Second of all, you can't read. I never cited a particular Extinction event, just the fact that of all life that has ever existed, only .5% is left.
But you read what you want to read, because you're dumb and angry.
[+]
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-13 19:19:48
So if it's at 400ppm right now and +2ppm/yr that means we have about 75 years before it reaches 550ppm. This varies with acceleration rates however.
Lakshmi.Saevel
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Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-05-13 19:20:58
Already discussed this earlier. Higher Oceanic CO2 means more algae which is the base food for Ocean life. The higher acidity will kill off some species of Ocean life. The combined effect of those two forces will result in a shift in biology not an extinction of it.
And science isn't settled by a "consensus" of 75 scientists in a room of 77.
By fonewear 2014-05-13 19:21:20
So if it's at 400ppm right now and +2ppm/yr that means we have about 75 years before it reaches 550ppm. This varies with acceleration rates however.
Just enough years for me to not care.
[+]
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2014-05-13 19:22:04
So if it's at 400ppm right now and +2ppm/yr that means we have about 75 years before it reaches 550ppm. This varies with acceleration rates however.
Just enough years for me to not care.
At least you own it. Have a +.
[+]
Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-05-13 19:23:07
So if it's at 400ppm right now and +2ppm/yr that means we have about 75 years before it reaches 550ppm. This varies with acceleration rates however. And the damage from the Industrial Revolution adding to that PPM increase won't dissipate for another 30 or so years, if not longer, due to continuous excessive deforestation for land acquisition.
At the time, it was said to have a 100 year impact as things were then.
With the current rate of ppm acceleration, I doubt we'd have even 75 years before it surpasses 550ppm.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-13 19:25:33
Not citing this one, but apparently as the sun gets older, it will actually decrease the amount of inorganic CO2 on earth until the level hits 10ppm at which point everything will die off.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-13 19:29:23
Oh no!
Quote: Estimates on how much longer the planet will be able to continue to support life range from 500 million years (myr), to as long as 2.3 billion years (byr). The future of the planet is closely tied to that of the Sun. As a result of the steady accumulation of helium at the Sun's core, the star's total luminosity will slowly increase. The luminosity of the Sun will grow by 10% over the next 1.1 byr and by 40% over the next 3.5 byr. Climate models indicate that the rise in radiation reaching the Earth is likely to have dire consequences, including the loss of the planet's oceans.
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-05-13 19:29:39
Oh, that's one of the talking points I forgot about - high CO2 is awesome for plant life. What they neglect to consider is that the vast ecosystem shifts accompanying the warming may, you know, affect other things, for example, us. This isn't looking at it as a glass half full scenario and is incredibly shortsighted.
Already discussed this earlier. Higher Oceanic CO2 means more algae which is the base food for Ocean life. The higher acidity will kill off some species of Ocean life. The combined effect of those two forces will result in a shift in biology not an extinction of it. The coral reefs would beg to differ.
By Altimaomega 2014-05-13 19:55:40
You're conflicting two different things here. Republicans are dumb, and that's why they're republicans. Establishment republican politicians are insanely smart. For example, the politicians lay claim to Lincoln because it's both historically accurate and because it gives off a positive, non-racist image. Republican constituents lay claim to Lincoln and think Lincoln would actually be on their side.
I'm still waiting btw, AO.
Sorry wife got home. Anyways I was hoping for something I didn't know about. Oh well..
True to my word. Things wrong in Washington. NSA TSA BLM IRS Homeland security. Still fighting 2 wars, (we are still in Iraq).
Mass Regulation, Obamacare... The working pay 40% taxes on what they earn. I could go on and on and on...
This chart
Obama and his minions claim the total opposite. Which is it?
If this is what you really believe, then I can see how you're misguided.
Do you not remember that our economy went off a cliff before Obama took office? Do you not realize that the economy doesn't automatically reset just because we have a new president? You don't seem aware that the president's budget doesn't even go into effect until the following year since inauguration is in January and his first fiscal year is in October.
This is one of the things that push me to just bluntly claim that conservatives are just dumb unapologetically. I don't understand why this is so prevalent on your side. Right before he inaugurated, our entire economy collapsed.
Just google any chart on the US economy by year. This one took me 2 seconds to find
I really don't understand the conservative's resistance to understand that the whole fricken economy crashed right before he took office and why they refuse to acknowledge that Obama dug us out of that hole. I don't give Obama credit for much, but I'll at least give him that.
Exactly the response I figured on. Look at what Clinton did with the whole shipping jobs over seas. Then move onto 9/11, a lot of BS got passed because of that. Then move onto the Dem majority in 2006 and the crash of 2008, that we have been recovering from ever sense.
Obama and a Dem majority in congress had full rein for 2 yrs (08-10) and all they managed to accomplish was Obamacare that has only hurt our recovery and nothing else. 2010-2014 has been a total cluster *** of lies and nobody doing anything to break out of the massive grave they have been digging for 6-7yrs. 6-7yrs of blaming everyone and claiming things are getting better when they are actually getting worse.
The real kicker is that the Tea Party would actually have a chance to maybe break some party lines and accomplish some stuff if they wasn't getting horrible press and both sides of the aisle bashing on them. I will get called crazy and a loon because, I actually am routing for the one group that MAYBE MIGHT do something to help this country. But hey keep on your party lines and hope for some more change.
I'm going to bed have fun ^^
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2014-05-13 20:01:24
[+]
Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-05-13 20:05:45
The actual science behind global warming is irrefutable:
Leviathan.Chaosx
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-13 20:08:48
And thus ends the most epic debate on climate change.
By Lye 2014-05-13 20:54:18
By fonewear 2014-05-13 21:03:14
And thus ends the most epic debate on climate change.
What debate ?
By Fumiku 2014-05-14 00:28:38
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Over-saturation, even of elements found naturally as part of the life process, can cause it to become a pollutant.
Particularly when it's created through processes that aren't natural to the life process.
They become toxic and overbearing.
Earth has had 3000ppm+ naturally and life flourished on the planet. Historically 1000ppm is natural and well within the tolerance of the planet. We are freaking out over anything above 280ppm.
Agenda driven much.
What the planet can tolerate and what works for human society are completely different things.
You say "Life Flourished" But 99.5% Of all life on Earth has died.
I think I said it in an earlier thread, Conservationism isn't about saving the Planet, we can't do anything to this planet it hasn't survived half a dozen times already. Asteroid Impacts, Supervolcanic eruptions spewing molten radioactive Cobalt into the atmosphere, real runaway greenhouse events. All of this has happened, often in quick succession.
Conservatism is about what's best for human society. Even a minor shift in sea temperatures has the possibility to change weather patterns relatively drastically. Crops can fail, massive famine can sweep parts of the Earth, destabilizing regions already on the cusp of breaking apart.
But you know, some Tubeworms survived for a while, which means *** it, destabilize human society.
Might want to go check your data, at least ChaosX did.
You realize that CO2 is plant food? Higher CO2 concentrations are directly responsible for faster and larger plant growth. Greenhouse growers use this fact to maximize their harvests.
You also realize that the mass extinction your talking about happened at under 200ppm CO2 right? Here is a little bit of information, at 180ppm photosynthesis starts to shut down and under 180ppm you get mass extinction of all plant life on the earth. We were that close to having all complex life on the planet die off, and it wasn't due to global warming but due to an ice age.
I don't like using personal attacks, but your plain ignorant if you think high CO2 is bad for plants. With our current biosphere 1000ppm would be about right for us. And btw CO2 toxicity doesn't start happening until north of 5000ppm for most plants with some being able to handle 9000ppm+.
Really do liberals / progressives ever actually do their own critical thinking or do they just rely on sound bites handed to them by per-approved media sources? 
So Jayce and the wheeled warriors could come to life!? MY DREAMS COME TRUE!
 Bismarck.Davorin
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Posts: 232
By Bismarck.Davorin 2014-05-14 02:22:09
Lakshmi.Saevel
Serveur: Lakshmi
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Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-05-14 05:13:05
Not citing this one, but apparently as the sun gets older, it will actually decrease the amount of inorganic CO2 on earth until the level hits 10ppm at which point everything will die off.
10ppm? Haha sh!t will start dying off long before that, try 160~170ppm where photosynthesis shuts down on the vast majority of plant life.
Anyhow we need to focus on the next 50~100 years and not the 1000+ year range. That 4bn USD a year being spent on "climate" research could better be used on experimentation for fusion which is the only serious long term energy solution. Fusion research is so starved for funding that they can't pursue nearly enough avenues to find a viable scalable one.
[+]
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-05-14 08:53:46
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »Over-saturation, even of elements found naturally as part of the life process, can cause it to become a pollutant.
Particularly when it's created through processes that aren't natural to the life process.
They become toxic and overbearing.
Earth has had 3000ppm+ naturally and life flourished on the planet. Historically 1000ppm is natural and well within the tolerance of the planet. We are freaking out over anything above 280ppm.
Agenda driven much.
I'm not sure, but at some point around 3000 (i think) it begins to affect us physiologically. There is such a thing as carbon dioxide poisoning. But again like you said, it's a long long way off.
Not citing this one, but apparently as the sun gets older, it will actually decrease the amount of inorganic CO2 on earth until the level hits 10ppm at which point everything will die off.
10ppm? Haha sh!t will start dying off long before that, try 160~170ppm where photosynthesis shuts down on the vast majority of plant life.
Anyhow we need to focus on the next 50~100 years and not the 1000+ year range. That 4bn USD a year being spent on "climate" research could better be used on experimentation for fusion which is the only serious long term energy solution. Fusion research is so starved for funding that they can't pursue nearly enough avenues to find a viable scalable one.
Seriously, how many other business and economic sectors exist that individually total under a billion annual dollars.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-05-14 09:13:41
Seriously, how many other business and economic sectors exist that individually total under a billion annual dollars. Individually, not as many as you think.
As a whole, the average (total net worth/total number of companies) will surprise you also.
 Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-05-14 09:55:58
You say Anti-Intellectual, I say Conservatives are insanely smart.
Really think about it, how far to the right have they pushed the Democrats by simply forcing the Democrats to fill the "Moderate" void leftover as more republicans go insane/teaparty?
That's some full on Tywin Lannister ***right there, win the war while losing every battle.
The liberals have not moved to the middle. I can say this because I'm solidly in the middle and support various issues from both sides. This doesn't matter because each side views me as "Enemy Number One" as I refuse to blindly agree with their entire agenda and put on their teams warpaint. I am an individual and don't belong to some collective entity.
Right now we have both extreme conservative and extreme progressive (Social Democrats) parties and this extremism has resulted in there being no middle or moderate position. Your post is a prime example of this thinking.
Right, you squat firmly in the Self-important "Me against the World" group.
How cute and original.
Oh! Saveal is quite charming!
Arguing that rape is completely justifiable due to rape fantasies on one hand, and claiming men are perpetual victims due to a "hidden ovulation" period on the other.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/07/science/earth/climate-change-report.html?_r=3
A very extensive report, known as the National Climate Assessment, was released earlier this week. Nothing in the report is particularly surprising, but its presentation for the general public, here, is incredibly impressive. (Not all government website releases are a disaster!)
If hardcore technical reports aren't your thing, the highlights portion of the site breaks each section down as plainly as possible, is extensively cited, and makes no secret the level of uncertainty inherent in current findings. The site is really quite fantastic, and I would encourage anyone with genuine interest, skepticism, and/or curiosity in U.S. climate change to fuck around in it for a while. (Of course, if well-substantiated, easily digestible scientific communications aren't your thing, there's always this.)
Perhaps, the most poignant message arising from the report is summarized in this quote from the article:
Quote: The report pointed out that while the country as a whole still had no comprehensive climate legislation, many states and cities had begun to take steps to limit emissions and to adapt to climatic changes that can no longer be avoided. But the report found that these efforts were inadequate. I don't really consider myself a policy person so... what do?
Edit: Also of note is the high diversity of those involved. Largely scientists, of course, but representative of a wide swath of interests, including some oil companies.
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