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Is Freedom of Religion Making Sense Fundamentally?
Lakshmi.Saevel
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-05-07 05:52:46
Again, I want to stress that if you're mind can reconcile Lead prayer in Congress with Separation of Church and State, you are an idiot. Thanks. *** you too.
I would agree if the purpose was to exclude or promote one's particular flavor of deity, but I don't see that here. The Establishment Clause or the concept of a wall of separation doesn't assure complete insulation of government from religion, and prayer itself isn't exclusive to Christianity. Unless that happens I don't see it as much of anything other than rote ceremony. It's very rarely a direct denial of other religions, but rather an exclusion of representation by never inviting them to begin with.
Also, the majority has the ability to simply ignore the minorities. Accurate representation is not a science, and I for one don't trust my city council to build without hidden agendas, let alone uphold the separation of church and state by being inclusive (How does one truly gauge inclusiveness, anyway?). I'd rather limit their power than expand it.
Invite them to what? Join with you in worshiping a deity you don't believe in? This is about a ceremonial prayer, with ceremonial being the operative word. There is no preferential treatment being shown here and that's what the 1st Amendment is about (the religious part anyway).
Cerberus.Tikal
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4945
By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-05-07 06:20:59
If Jesus, or Yhwh, or the trinity is ever once mentioned, it is preferential. (Same goes for Odin, Allah, Krishna, etc. but let's be honest about reality here.) If it's not, whatever. It is specifically stated that the prayers are Christian in nature, though, which leads me to think that Jesus, Yhwh, the trinity, or some other tell, is invoked at some point or another. That would make them government officials, on government time, endorsing a particular religion, which is a breach.
And to answer your question, though it might've been rhetorical; invite them (them, being people of other religious view points, whom these elected officials represent) to say a prayer of their own. Problem with this is that no one wants to take the effort to schedule other people, and if they do, their outreach is much narrower than the community of people they were elected to represent. In English, it works in concept but rarely in practice.
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Ragnarok.Yatenkou
Serveur: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 319
By Ragnarok.Yatenkou 2014-05-07 06:21:44
Who cares? If it isn't causing outrage, let them figure it out on their own.
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-05-07 07:20:54
Ragnarok.Yatenkou said: »Who cares? If it isn't causing outrage, let them figure it out on their own.
If it got to the SCOTUS, it's caused an outrage. That's fairly obvious.
By fonewear 2014-05-07 08:05:55
Someone offended someone else. More breaking news after weather.
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By fonewear 2014-05-07 09:44:46
If Jesus, or Yhwh, or the trinity is ever once mentioned, it is preferential. (Same goes for Odin, Allah, Krishna, etc. but let's be honest about reality here.) If it's not, whatever. It is specifically stated that the prayers are Christian in nature, though, which leads me to think that Jesus, Yhwh, the trinity, or some other tell, is invoked at some point or another. That would make them government officials, on government time, endorsing a particular religion, which is a breach.
And to answer your question, though it might've been rhetorical; invite them (them, being people of other religious view points, whom these elected officials represent) to say a prayer of their own. Problem with this is that no one wants to take the effort to schedule other people, and if they do, their outreach is much narrower than the community of people they were elected to represent. In English, it works in concept but rarely in practice.
By fonewear 2014-05-07 09:49:01
This conversation went downhill fast, lol.
It was never very interesting from the start...
Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-07 09:57:34
This conversation went downhill fast, lol.
It was never very interesting from the start... Gotta use your brain for it to be interesting.
By fonewear 2014-05-07 09:58:26
This conversation went downhill fast, lol.
It was never very interesting from the start... Gotta use your brain for it to be interesting.
I did that once I didn't like the results...I like conversations to go off topic it leads to interesting and crazy thoughts. I mean it is bound to happen at some point.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-07 10:00:50
This conversation went downhill fast, lol.
It was never very interesting from the start... Gotta use your brain for it to be interesting.
I did that once I didn't like the results...I like conversations to go off topic it leads to interesting and crazy thoughts. I mean it is bound to happen at some point. Let it happen naturally. No need to force it.
By fonewear 2014-05-07 10:02:38
Religion isn't the problem here it is people. The people that *** about being offended or the people that don't believe in anything. Unless someone is forcing religion on you what are we bitching about again ?
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-07 10:04:32
Religion isn't the problem here it is people. The people that *** about being offended or the people that don't believe in anything. Unless someone is forcing religion on you what are we bitching about again ? We're bitching about bitching.
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By fonewear 2014-05-07 10:05:09
Religion isn't the problem here it is people. The people that *** about being offended or the people that don't believe in anything. Unless someone is forcing religion on you what are we bitching about again ? We're bitching about bitching.
So it is my fault. I'll accept it and make a note of it.
Will I change probably not but I'll make empty promises anyways.
So we have an abstract *** fest. All this *** talk makes me want to visit Huff post.
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Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2014-05-07 10:32:55
I guess the general rule is that praying is fine unless it's very disruptive to a lot of other people.
Silent prayers, motions to ward of evil spirits, Buddist bow praying, silent chain of prayers to combat negative karma...etc those seem to be ok.
Dancing around naked in front of a fire, screaming loudly to heavens, burning paper talismans and waving wooden sword, sitting in the lotus position in the conference table...etc those seem to violate something and probably should not be allowed. I'm sure setting a fire in the conference room will bring in the fire department.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-07 10:35:52
People holding hands in a circle and reciting a prayer always creeps me out.
Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2014-05-07 10:42:55
I think it's usually the guy to stand outside of the holding hands circle that gets the looks. I'm not into holding hands either. Who knows where that hand had been? It might be infectious for all I know. However, imagine everyone is saying some sort of 'amen' in their prayers and just you saying something like 'praise the sun!' and raises both your arms up.
This brings up another problem. If you are doing the 'praise the sun!' pose while everyone else is going with 'amen' then that will affect whatever discussions/arguments/debates/businesses that you are all there for. You just created a majority and minority before you even begin your conference.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-07 10:45:32
I think it's usually the guy to stand outside of the holding hands circle that gets the looks. Imagine everyone is saying some sort of 'amen' in their prayers and just you saying something like 'praise the sun!' and raises both your arms up.
This brings up another problem. If you are doing the 'praise the sun!' pose while everyone else is going with 'amen' then that will affect whatever discussions/arguments/debates/businesses that you are all there for. You just created a majority and minority before you even begin your conference. Hence why I don't say or do anything. It's just creepy is all.
Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2014-05-07 10:49:31
I'd join the circle and try to disinfect my hands after. I'm an atheist - not really but I'm holding my opinion until I can see some actual magic working. I don't have to believe in any of those mumbo jumbo but if those help me with my business then I'll go along with whatever ritual those people are doing. I'd think of it like handshakes, mating ritual or dance class.
I might hold off with those hand holding circles trying to call down UFOs or something. I'm not too sure I should be involve with those folks.
Leviathan.Chaosx
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-05-07 10:55:14
UFO people are hit or miss. Sometimes they are good to mess with. Just a bunch of bored people looking for any sign of intelligent life out in space.
Caitsith.Zahrah
Serveur: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-05-07 10:55:51
There have been incidents that I have observed where I have felt that a public prayer was no more than a hallow demonstration. I was more bothered by the pretentiousness and cheapening of the act of prayer for, what I thought was, unmeaningful and unnecessary circumstances that initiated the prayers.
Serveur: Asura
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Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-05-07 11:05:38
There have been incidents that I have observed where I have felt that a public prayer was no more than a hallow demonstration. I was more bothered by the pretentiousness and cheapening of the act of prayer for, what I thought was, unmeaningful and unnecessary circumstances that initiated the prayers. That is coming more commonplace nowadays.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-05-07 11:11:29
This brings up another problem. If you are doing the 'praise the sun!' pose while everyone else is going with 'amen' then that will affect whatever discussions/arguments/debates/businesses that you are all there for. You just created a majority and minority before you even begin your conference.
The people initiating the prayer of the majority created the situation, though. Everyone picks their prayer and shows who is siding with who on the man-in-the-sky issue.
No prayer, no problem.
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
Serveur: Bismarck
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Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-05-07 11:13:48
I might hold off with those hand holding circles trying to call down UFOs or something. I'm not too sure I should be involve with those folks.
Yet you'd hold hands with the people praying to a man in the sky to guide them into making good decisions about public policy?
I think there's a better chance of a UFO landing than divine intervention in whether or not to allow zoning for the construction of a new Arby's.
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Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-05-07 11:29:57
Clearly God loves delicious toasted subs, who could deny the heavenly host of a meatball sub on artisan italian bread? Motion passed and may those minimum wage workers ever keep my sandwiches warm and melty.
The compartmentalization of who is 'crazy' and who knows 'the truth' has always been something that rattled my cage. I think it's because I read too many fantasy books, played too many video games and watched sci-fi series. Everyone makes fun of Ancient Aliens dude but believe in virgin births, raise spells, a god cares about food restrictions (no shrimp! no lobster!) and eternal lavabaths? Right.
Maybe our gods really look like Kevin Sorbo running around the countryside and the Greeks got it right. I mean, they got math and philosophy right so why not the clean sweep?
Sylph.Shipp
Serveur: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 440
By Sylph.Shipp 2014-05-07 15:43:57
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Clearly God loves delicious toasted subs, who could deny the heavenly host of a meatball sub on artisan italian bread? Motion passed and may those minimum wage workers ever keep my sandwiches warm and melty.
The compartmentalization of who is 'crazy' and who knows 'the truth' has always been something that rattled my cage. I think it's because I read too many fantasy books, played too many video games and watched sci-fi series. Everyone makes fun of Ancient Aliens dude but believe in virgin births, raise spells, a god cares about food restrictions (no shrimp! no lobster!) and eternal lavabaths? Right.
Maybe our gods really look like Kevin Sorbo running around the countryside and the Greeks got it right. I mean, they got math and philosophy right so why not the clean sweep? Well, to be fair, it wasn't a technically a raise spell. Jesus was clearly a WHM and had Reraise prior to the mob he generated enough threat towards came after him.
By Jetackuu 2014-05-07 15:48:39
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The compartmentalization of who is 'crazy' and who knows 'the truth' has always been something that rattled my cage. I think it's because I read too many fantasy books, played too many video games and watched sci-fi series. Everyone makes fun of Ancient Aliens dude but Make fun of them both, equally.
While religious people have literally argued with me over this, I don't discount the possibility of either one, in fact statistically speaking, aliens are pretty much guaranteed to exist in some form or another, but to assert that they've visited earth etc, well that's a bit loony.
Serveur: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-05-07 16:00:24
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »I think it's because I read too many fantasy books, played too many video games and watched sci-fi series. The strange irony is that the majority of people who make those things are actually quite religious. Gary Gygax and many (most?) other tabletop RPG designers were/are Christian in spite of creating entire systems by which to make pantheons. Some of the most popular fantasy writers are Mormons and it becomes really obvious when you learn to spot the tells because they have no problems making up a fantasy pantheon but they do make a big point that everyone should have a religion (and their pantheons don't generally reflect their faith, by the way -- Michael Sanderson is a really easy example).
It's the consumers of their work-product who tend to be more iffy on the subject of religion. Which isn't to say that several of my favorite authors aren't at least firmly in the agnostic/indifferent category, but it is surprising how many aren't.
Leviathan.Andret
Serveur: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1008
By Leviathan.Andret 2014-05-08 17:40:54
I might hold off with those hand holding circles trying to call down UFOs or something. I'm not too sure I should be involve with those folks.
Yet you'd hold hands with the people praying to a man in the sky to guide them into making good decisions about public policy?
I think there's a better chance of a UFO landing than divine intervention in whether or not to allow zoning for the construction of a new Arby's.
Yes, obviously. There are a lot more people holding hands praying to the man in the sky than praying to UFOs. If you are doing business, always seek a large market. They are both equally insane imo but UFO people tend to be poorer and most man-in-the-sky people are believed (by others) not insane.
Hard to do business with others when they think you're running with nut cases.
Lakshmi.Saevel
Serveur: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-05-09 04:22:03
Religion isn't the problem here it is people. The people that *** about being offended or the people that don't believe in anything. Unless someone is forcing religion on you what are we bitching about again ?
There is a very active element in the Democrat party which desires to rid the world of all forms of religion but Christianity most especially. This creates an agenda where they won't accept neutrality as an option or any form of compromise that allows people with religion to openly practice it. Their beliefs against religion are so strong that they have become the thing they most despised, fanatics.
Now I'm waiting for them to accuse me of being religion and a conservative.
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Cerberus.Tikal
Serveur: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4945
By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-05-09 04:29:23
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The supreme court has ruled that prayers during a local government meeting are perfectly valid as long as they do not denigrate non-Christians or try to win converts according to the recent decision.
Quote: A very interesting ruling in the Supreme Court took place yesterday. For awhile now, religious display have been slowly taken down in various government facilities. However, the actual right to say a prayer during a government meeting has just been upheld. Source
Quote: A narrowly divided Supreme Court upheld decidedly Christian prayers at the start of local council meetings on Monday, declaring them in line with long national traditions though the country has grown more religiously diverse.
The content of the prayers is not significant as long as they do not denigrate non-Christians or try to win converts, the court said in a 5-4 decision backed by its conservative majority.
Though the decision split the court along ideological lines, the Obama administration backed the winning side, the town of Greece, N.Y., outside of Rochester.
The outcome relied heavily on a 1983 decision in which the court upheld an opening prayer in the Nebraska Legislature and said prayer is part of the nation's fabric, not a violation of the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of religion. Source
Quote: In her dissent, Kagan said the council meeting prayers are unlike those said to open sessions of Congress and state legislatures, where the elected officials are the intended audience. In Greece, "the prayers there are directed squarely at the citizens," she said.
Kagan also noted what she described as the meetings' intimate setting, with 10 or so people sitting in front of the town's elected and top appointed officials. Children and teenagers are likely to be present, she said.
Kennedy and his four colleagues in the majority all are Catholic. They are: Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.
Kagan was joined by Justices Stephen Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sonia Sotomayor. Of the four, three are Jewish and Sotomayor is Catholic.
Senior counsel David Cortman of the Alliance Defense Freedom, which represented the town, applauded the court for affirming "that Americans are free to pray." Source
Quote: No one seems to have wanted to address the issue of praying in itself, no matter what religion the prayer is from, is apart of the nation’s fabric. While a seemingly insignificant point at first glance, this actually means a lot.
Basically put, the act of praying is not only a part of the nation’s fabric, but it leaves the impression that you have to pray in some sort of fashion no matter where the prayer itself comes from. Does this mean you can make up your own prayers? Would you also have to explain what faith those self made prayer derive from as well?
Once again the simple fact that chanting any prayer is not addressed and completely disregards the secular community’s desire to put all the superstitions of religion behind society and move forward to more practical things like running a decent government.
Freedom of religion therefore implies that the act of praying is fine, but don’t you dare display any visual representation of this fact. Or is this just a way to comprise between all sides of the argument, thereby leaving a perplexing set of rules that ideologically seem to contradict one another? Source
The main questions here involve the act of praying and whether or not prayer should be considered apart of nation's fabric? Even if it was a common thing many years ago, should it still be or shall we as a nation start tackling contradictory notions such as this?
Another factor to consider is why only the audience of a prayer was used as the main argument and not the act of praying itself? Does not a prayer derived from any religion infer that said religion has been chosen publicly chosen over others?
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