Performance As DD In Delve.

I'm not a thief. That mandau in my profile is still 75. I parsed my 99mnk with Oatixur (delve boss weapon) against Ihina's thief with 99mandau and he did very well. Several factors could have caused this. I was 8% under the accuracy cap. I didn't have a few pieces that i do now. Also our marches weren't on full time, thief might benefit less from marches since they have so much DW (mnk has delay reduction too, so i'm unsure on the math behind the comparison, but MNKs damage split is prob much different also).

To clarify, i was using Asuran Fists spam. I hadn't merited shijin yet, and already told Ihina I want a rematch when I finish my mnk gear. I'm highly interested to see how top tier mnk and thief stack up (even though I have unfair advantage with boss weapon). Even still, he destroyed the other 'delve dds' in the alliance. I was only person to beat him. I just think very few people care about thief enough to be really good DD on it. On bismarck I think there are only 3-4 'top tier' thfs (not accounting for JPs since i don't know them/parse with them).

Meh, it's never going to be fair. Even once I get the Izhiikoh, I'll just stick it in the offhand slot because Mercy Stroke is absolutely necessary to compete.

I hope SE realizes that and does something about it. Otherwise, the THF job will never move beyond the Mandau, DD-wise.

Fact.

An 8000 plasm run means 160 mobs were killed. Given party splits, at best you're going to be tagging half of them with your TH, so figure 80 mobs are affected by your gear choice. An extra 1% TH from Thief's Knife then means maybe an extra 1 Airlixir.

Using a fire Thokcha offhand instead of Thief's Knife means an increase in damage of about 15%.

Now, suppose you're in the main room party, comprised of two heavy DDs and you, the thf. Also suppose that those two heavy DDs are doing twice as much damage as you (ie: strong DDs, weak thf), so that the damage split is 40/40/20.

Now increase your damage by 15%. That's a 3% increase in total party damage output. That means, instead of killing 80 mobs, you could kill 82.4 mobs. It's not enough to increase the total Airlixir drop count, but it means an average increase of 120 plasm for every single person in the alliance -- a net 2160 total plasm. Given that the Airlixir was worth only 500 plasm, it follows that you do more for the alliance by focusing on damage rather than on pure TH.

On the other hand, how much is the TH you bring to the run worth? Going off old TH testing I have, and taking a simplified model (TH2 = 2x base drop rate; each additional TH above that is +1% final drop rate), and a rough estimate of a 20% drop rate on Airlixirs with TH0, an average of TH6.5 per mob on the 80 mobs you hit would yield about 35 airlixirs per run instead of 16, or 9500 extra plasm worth.

9500 plasm over 18 people means 528 plasm per person, or 10.5 mobs killed. In order to kill 10.5 additional mobs by replacing the thf with a heavier DD option (and that's assuming you're not repop limited), you would need someone capable of doing 65% more damage than the thf. That is, with the same original 2 DDs, if the overall damage split was 35/35/30 (with the 30% being the alternative DD to the 20% thf), in theory the run should net the same overall plasm total.

This is not entirely out of the question, but depends on factors I don't really have data to quantify. In one of my first runs, as mnk I was at 26% vs a Mandau thf at 13%. Of course I had Rigors at that point, and I don't have any data on how an Aphotic Kukri thf would do vs me, so it's of questionable value.

Using spreadsheet comparisons, I have mnk/war at 679 avg DPS, while thf/war is at 484, using similar gear sets and buffs, both using RCBs (thf is using Aphotic main with either Exen or Evis, cause I don't want to spend time changing gear out to see how Mandau would work). Mnk has a 40% lead in that comparison. Main problem thf has is that it has to make up a lot of accuracy when Aggressor is down, while mnk can alternate Aggressor and Focus.

An alternative is having the thf eat sushi and land Acid Bolts on the mobs, which would give it a higher total output (520 average) if it could be done consistantly (though it then gets into the problem of time spent shooting vs melee time, but is balanced by increasing the entire party's output).

Overall, it -should- be possible that picking a thf over a pure DD is a net gain in plasm earned (discounting the bogus argument of good thf vs fail DD).

I found your problem.

I don't think anyones ever said that a THF can't do decent. But relying on your THF to be a damage dealer is kind of silly. I'm sure whomever you're talking about is a fine THF, but comparing a 99 Mandau to Asuran Fists is like comparing Resolution to Flash Nova or something. Not even on the same page.

since it was averaging 2864 in morimar delve plasm farm party, i highly doubt its even close to that kind of comparison. Asuran does beat shijin in some cases. Flash nova would never beat reso.....unless the reso missed all 5 hits.

Thanks for jumping in though, ignore everything previously stated and express your prejudices without any real facts or experiences. Just because 95% of thiefs suck ***, doesn't mean the job does. What is silly is my 99amano sam 2xing or 3xing all the delve weapon MNK, SAM, DRK, DRGs, that must mean all those things suck right?

No one is saying thief is the best DD. Its easier to go on mnk, sam, drk, drg, war, etc and DD. What we are saying is, there are a few thiefs out there who are exceptional at their jobs and CAN fill the DD role very well...and do better than you think they can. It is the whole 'loljob' mentality. LOLPUP isn't thrown around so much these days because if you own a parser, they are actually pretty strong. Your average delve plasm farm is full of average DDs at best, and Ihina's thief would atleast 1.5x their damage.

Anyways, believe what you will. There are only 3-4 per server that I would allow to go thf DD anyways, so its not a really big issue. Next time I get the chance i'll parse against Ihina and post the data, so the sheep who think they are badasses with bereavers can learn something. Admittedly, OP probably should have posted a parse, instead of epeen damage spike screenshot.


This is the same prejudice I deal with being a Tarutaru DD. I love it when people laugh at my taru DD, it makes it all the sweeter when I make them look 'silly'. Find the best thief on your server, invite him as DD, parse it, and see what happens.

Hows that Ragnarok taste atm, Thandar?

IMO You get it wrong way, THF's main job should be pulling, you get treasure hunter on when you pull the mob. Higher treasure hunter shouldn't make huge difference compare with more mobs to kill.




In a standard plasm pt setup, you don't "pick a THF over a pure DD" though. You already have them.

I hope people didn't take my comments too seriously. I was merely stating from my point of view, that my Thief, which was pretty decent before Seekers came out, is absolutely pitiful next to my DRK in Delve, in terms of damage. (Even before I got bereaver)

By no means am I saying its impossible for THF to be a "DD", but you got to be some kind of demon sent from hell on THF to be chosen as one. This isn't a matter of saying a job is LOL, it's just how THF is designed.

Mobs just don't last long enough for my THF to do decent damage, and whenever I am asked to go on it, Treasure Hunter is all my leader cares about, so I do as I'm told, and work on TH effectiveness.

THF is not my main job, and with using a STR Thokcha, I see a maximum of 2k for an Evisceration, as I never get rolls or songs. Haste is the maximum I would expect to see.

As for pulling, I try to pull when I can, but initially the BRD is always on the case, and is already pulling while I am trying to fight mobs and get TH.

Waiting on repops significantly lowers the effectiveness of everyone in the party, 2 well geared DD's and a THF should be able to keep the main room nearly clear, any more DD power than that and the value of TH goes up significantly. The question is whether the THF should be pulling or DDing, when you have a Healer, COR, and BRD in the room party, the only reason the THF would pull is for TH, BRD's and COR's should be rounding up mobs and sleeping them.

If THF is outside of DD pt, what's the point to DD without march/rolls? Pulling or bust.

If THF is in DD pt, who'd sit in PLD pt spot? Another DD job without march/rolls is just a waste of spot. It has to be a puller of some sort. Unless DD pt is DDx2+THF and extra puller job in PLD pt.

Come to think of it, you can't calculate your plasm gain that way. More airlixir =/= higher plasm gain. Some ppl may farm plasm for boss equipement or NM KI equipment, more airlixir for alliance doesn't mean anything to them since airlixir can't be used to get KI equipments nor revert your airlixir to plasm.

IMO, aiming for higher plasm gain for ally should be higher priority than more airlixirs. Feel free to disagree though.

if your goal isn't rank 15 on all your pieces, you're doing it wrong, the numbers mote has up are assuming the goal is plasm not ki or gear. any competent group should be killing the mata anyway.

Can always buy airlixirs if you're seriously into getting R15 though. If a few ppl in ally joined the pt for NM/Boss KI gears and have money to buy airlixirs, aiming for more airlixir is just a waste of time for those ppl.

I haven't used it since I got bereaver.

I assume one of three scenarios:

1) Player is collecting airlixirs for upgrades, and plasm to convert to airlixirs for upgrades.
2) Player is selling airlixirs for money, and converting plasm to airlixirs to sell for money.
3) Player is collecting plasm for gear, and airlixirs are a possible bonus to augment said gear, or sell for extra money.

In all three cases, treating airlixir drops as their equivalent value in plasm is a valid choice to make. The only issue is that it won't be evenly distributed across all players. However, on average, it will be equivalent.

Also, in the condition that the thf is in the third party, and thus not getting party buffs, pulling + Acid Bolts + max TH should easily cover its contribution to overall plasm earning rates, and any damage whatsoever is a bonus. In that case, I can see fulltiming TH gear as more worthwhile. Without the cor/brd buffs, the ratio between the regular party DDs and the thf will be more like 4:1 or greater, and will be a comparison between the thf and 3 DDs instead of 2. In that case, the extra damage from a real offhand instead of Thief's Knife is unlikely to make any significant difference.

I see this as incredibly rare? Anyone who has NM KI and can buy those pieces, should be spamming tojil for 70k/hour points (versus at best 10k/hr reg farming). This may change over time as people leech/buy the wins, but any LS that can kill the bosses for KI should be able to spam tojil for ridiculous points/hr + loots.

While Tojil isn't exactly hard it does require very specific set ups. Obviously it would be optimal to just spam Tojil 24/7 but because of what it requires it isn't really feasible for a lot of ls (at least that I'm aware of) to expect it.

why do people keep linking this sketchy mediafire link lol

http://www.ffxicalculator.com/ is the website

I can do up to 13/15% on parse when we do bosses outside for beads, having a THF that can actually deal good DMG is always a plus.
Dont understimate THF's dmg that much lol.

Sad that Tojil and bros. dont need TH.

Hrmm, 7k mercy stroke vs 10k upheaval, I'm goan go ahead and underestimate it.

I love this thread, great for a laugh. I hate to break it to all of you but your job is irreverent if you suck at it. It is scary how many DDs I see who parse under 300k for a delve run. Yeah if you are gonna show up on THF in empy +2 offhanding Thief Knife then you won't deal squat for damage. I know a couple thfs that end up on a lot of the plasm farms I go on who are pretty much useless and there for TH. I also have watched Quendi parse second on his thf multiple times. A well geared thf can average 300-350k a run in delve plus the added TH which makes him more useful that most DD you see in a PUG. Just because a good DRK can put out more DD than any other job doesn't mean you will find them very often. 95% of them will be average at best.

Also saying you shouldn't bring thf to delve cause I went thf and did very little damage doesn't mean all thfs are bad, it means your thf is bad.

The good THF > bad DD arguement is dead and gone. THF CANNOT keep up with real DD's, it CAN increase the overall yeild from a run via TH and its damage is simply a bonus.

Well, if you say so.

I love it when tarutaru dd die.

Being taru is suffering.

True if every DD in your delve shout is as you call it "real dd's." I'm yet to see a delve shout that has all good DDs, or even half good DDs to be honest but my standards are a bit high.

Let me clarify for you then, 95% of DDs in your Delve shout will be average DDs for FFXI. Most low end DDs do not get do delve on their DD jobs if they do it at all. Sorry I didn't break it down into simple enough terms for you, anything else you wanna be a *** about?