Automaton Research Thread

back to the drawing board!
it seems like there is also a low probability that Armor shatterer can do awkward low damage

Longshot, but I'd consider the possibility that auto RA(and WS?) have at least two components to them. RA duality would explain why we see anomalously low WS/shots(we're virtually always at capped hitrate, which would account for the rarity) and why I experienced peculiar damage in Apollyon SE against targets with weaknesses that should have resulted in predictable fluctuation

That's what it seems to be honestly

I don't want to say anything prematurely but talking with Motenten we've noticed some patterns in the /ra and I thik can predict the damage of the low shots but it's hard to test

It doesn't seem to be tied to TP gain; the Utsusemi method seems like the only reasonable way to verifying/disprove it, and even then there's a degree of uncertainty because who the hell knows if a positive result would definitively mean anything

Not sure if interesting, but against Simurgh(who has absurd accuracy, even against level 99's)

It's almost impossible to quantify the evasion amount given by the Alternator due to caps. I showed previously going from a sub 20% evasion rate to a capped evasion rate on bluffalo, and I had similar results on Luckybugs in Ceizak while testing accuracy. Additionally, he automaton regularly evades physical TP moves completely from the Salvage II bosses whereas even on DNC I was almost floored on evade rate in normal gear versus most of them (Dvergr seemed to have poor accuracy but who cares about a Dvergr's physical attacks!)

The effect on accuracy is similarly difficult to quantify although with just standard attachments my Automaton had just as high of a hit rate as any of the melees with double madrigals + sushi and hunter's roll and didn't really care very much about the Peiste's AoE attacks.

Interestingly the Alternator puts the Automaton's stats at the level of the NMs that you fight on tier IV-V (Peiste was shown to have ~170 VIT) so I think the intended effect of all these boosts is to effectively make the Automaton essentially a level ~115 monster.

It makes the Automaton very easy to keep alive while in range- even in Delve - but in Legion the puppet spends a lot of time dying horribly unless you deploy it out of range because Legion is stupid.

Also, off topic, but I see you have updated your avatar for summertime while staying true to your theme. I approve.

Girl's gotta' know how to accessorize

Not sure if this was ever tested post-Drum Magazine patch, but ranged delay is as follows:

0 Maneuvers - 18 seconds/shot
1 Maneuvers - 14 seconds/shot
2 Maneuvers - 12 seconds/shot
3 Maneuvers - 5 seconds/shot

The final, uneven delay is peculiar, but tested ~three times more than the rest for precision. This gives a displeasing advantage to KKK in any automaton-only PUP situation, allowing their output to be roughly double everyone else's

That said, this doesn't really bode well for any serious automaton-only PUP situation for group activity. Given that automatons typically use Armor Shatterer at ~110-120 TP(an irritating aspect of their AI), you're looking at pretty pitiful WS frequency, rendering their robust ratio bonuses pretty moot against what would otherwise be their prime targets

That that said, a pseudo-RNG situation is still very possible, granted you're able to secure ~twice as many (skill-capped)PUP as you would need RNG for whatever you're fighting. Unfortunately that's about as likely as finding a handful of Relic RNG, so eh

Silly question is that drum magazine alone or with turbo charger too? (been a while turbo is the haste attachment right?)

I see 2 Maneuvers as being the odd value out there. Assuming they are floored and it's actually a percent reduction, there's a 5% margin of error on everything (base time between shots is 20 seconds, yeah?).

-10~15%
-30%~35%
-40%~45%?
-75%~80%

I assume you're trying to say you think the Haste from Turbo Charger works on the Automaton's ranged attacks?

Herpa derp. I was looking at it as a direct subtraction. %reduction makes more sense. And now that you mention it, I had a seemingly anomalous shot with two maneuvers and a recast of 11 seconds, which would fit better in that model.

Just to contribute, i too have seen(very rarely...im talking like 3% or so out of all Armor Shatterer my automaton has done since ive gotten Alternator) Armor Shatterer do unorthodox low numbers as well, which pegs the question "how in fact does this WS really work" again. Whats even more curious is that you are much more likely to see the automaton just straight up miss the WS entirely instead of seeing these perplexing low numbers to begin with, maybe the "its either 4/4 hits or 0/4 hits only" theory isnt true.

Is the add effect on armor shatterer broken? Been skilling up ranged auto for a while today on aby-altepa nms, and I've never seen the defense down wears off message.

The effect is definitely not broken, but maaaaybe the message is? Daze causes stun but I've never seen a wearing message for that either.

Fairly certain you don't get those messages. Just like you don't get "Target's dia effect wore off." when the automaton was the one to cast Dia. I don't think any pet job gets those messages.

It's probably due to the way the game reports those effects wearing off; they only report to the player who caused them - It's a massive design flaw.

Ah, good to know. I was worried it was in the same boat as tourbillion/ageha/etc.

On that note, I remember a while back, sometime around when SE "announced what tactical processor does", I was doing some testing on when the puppet ws goes off, and on a whim, I tossed on tactical processor and played with it a little. This was against bunnies in ronf, (ie: deploy -> attack or WS -> dead). I have no idea why. Anyway, it wasn't a huge sample, but I did notice a strange shift; Without TP, valoredge would actually WS (I always deployed within range), by 150 tp, and averaged somewhere between 130~150 TP, but with TP (and an ice maneuver), that average shifted downward to 120~140TP, and never exceeded ~140 TP before forcing WS.

It was a tiny sample size, and I had a lot of other more pressing concerns at the time, so I didn't think much of it and it got lost in the mean time. When I look back and think about it, though... well... If you consider SE's stance that "If something's wrong with the AI, we'll give you an attachment to fix it" (eg: scanner), I can't help but wonder if SE added that sort of functionality to Tactical Processor when we weren't looking, or if no one ever thought to test that one (I assume the former, but I can't remember for certain).

I can't imagine that would be too hard to test, anyway, if perhaps a bit tedious. It's a crackpot theory, though, and would really only serve to piss us off if it's true (ie: it means to force our puppets to ws reliably, we'd need to add ice maneuvers to any maneuver rotation, thus sacrificing delay redux)

JPs are claiming to be using Companion's Roll and actually deploying Automatons to melee with PLD tanks - although I'm not sure if they're using Drum Magazine

I'll believe it when I see a screen shot

I considered that momentarily, but I don't see how Repair/Dues timers would allow for that '~'

Companion's coupled with 2xWind out of range is feasible and less terrible than their base WS rate, but as sturdy as they are with Alternator, they still only have a fraction of their base HP when you're resummoning them rapidly

Buuut like I said, if you're fortunate enough to have a excessive number of competent/geared PUPs in your arsenal, taking the number of RNG you'd need to kill something within a given time limit and doubling it in PUPs should yield similar(and much more entertaining!) results

Ith appropriate attachments versus Delve TIV-V not Orbon or Crab the Puppet is often taking less damage than a regular player.

I asked a JP what people were claiming to do and she told me they were deploying the puppet and deactivating occasionally to reset hate but with PLD tanking they weren't taking ridiculous damage amounts so if the Puppets took damage they could be recalled out of range and regen'd to full to deactivate and reactivate.

Corsairs can also reset activate/repair when necessary

Alternator is really stupid, pupppet had higher accuracy o. Peiste NM than any playr. And usually took less than 400 dmg from Calcifying mist.

I had no trouble keeping it alive with unmerited Rep (air and Maintenance.
(On TIV/V)

JP friend mentioned healing drink but said she heard they just brought for safety and didn't need them.

If it's true (she said was all hearsay at this point) then the ral merit to this strategy is that it doen't take much more than 2 good PLDs a pair of CORs and some PUPs with Alternator + skilled RNG frame and attachments. You really don't need much gear at all.

I always forget that Mulsums exist

Anywho, I don't doubt its merit against lesser NMs, I just don't see it being nearly as practical on bosses without a relatively large arsenal of PUPs

I haven't used PUP on Delve, PUP is more like my "have fun" job, I did change my dualbox thf to cor and tried companion roll, in Salvage II, and can say, it with Beast Roll Killed HQ Khimeira in like 3 mins just the automaton on the NM, didnt saw an improvement on Armor Shatterer damage when using Beast Roll, but saw an improvement on normal atk/ratks.

Just wonder if SE plans to release an "Alternator II" that drops from some incoming delve leader.

Apparently they used 10 so I suppose that qualifies as large!

That'd do it; if Jem's group is killing bosses with ~4 RNG, 10 PUP should be more than adequate

Okay, so using 12 seconds between maneuvers and Automaton stat > Puppet Master Stat, we can use the overload duration and the known decay rate to calculate the Total heat before decay:


This test can be repeated with Heat Sink equipped:

Okay, it's lower. In the past it has been proposed that Heat Sink reduces the number of degrees per maneuver. The above would indicate that it reduces it by 83%~86%. An alternative is that Heat Sink increases the decay rate. If we double the decay rate (2 burden/tick) then we can calculate the Total Heat again and see:

Wow, matches up perfectly! In order to test whether this is the case, I added a 24 second delay between my 2nd and third Maneuvers. If the decay rate is increased, we expect that we will observe a 4 second offset compared to table 2 (12/3). If the decay rate is doubled, we expect to see an 8 second offset compared to table 2 (2*12/3)

It is an 8 second offset, therefore Heat Sink doesn't affect heat/maneuver and does affect decay rate, doubling it when equipped even without water maneuvers.

That explains why Heatsink seems like such a gigantic increase over not having it equipped!

Okay, I tried to test with one Water maneuver. It didn't work. I spammed out 80 Thunder Maneuvers while maintaining 1 Water and never overloaded. This indicated it was >3 degrees/tick decay.

So I did this instead:
I overloaded at the 6th usage, and it lasted for 18 seconds. There were 72 seconds of decay (36 of which were had 1 Water Maneuver and 36 of which were 2 degrees/tick).
(6*20)-30 threshold - 18 seconds = 72 degrees lost to decay

72 degrees = 36 seconds*2 degrees/3 seconds + 36 seconds * x degrees/3 seconds
x = 4 degrees

So with one Water Maneuver, Heat Sink gives 4 degrees/tick.