Yoichi Best Rng Weapon Now?

You have no idea how annoying this is to have to keep repeating myself over almost four pages.

Oh well there we go, #4. How many more pointless posts can we have in one thread.

This has turned into an excellent pissing contest. How about we wait a few weeks for final numbers, then compare dmg scenarios

From a raw data standpoint, probably not. But in practice, starting with a few Namas's then swapping to Jishnu's might wind up be a practical scenario. And there's always the OMGWTFTRIPLEDAMAGEPROCLOL occurrences.

Also you and I are well aware for every person that finally "gets it", there's gonna be 10 more still unwilling to let go of demon arrows. Don't ever visit Sylph if you don't wanna see some of the worst RNGs in existance.

@Snprphnx: Gonna be a LOT more than "a few weeks" before anything gets finalized and released.

Oh sure. I'm not denying that. But for pure damage, echidna's will almost certainly beat yoichi if the swords are any indication. Even the burtgang, with the highest delay, only beats the base damage of the delve sword by ONE. Burtgang has over 20 more delay as well. Yoichi has LESS delay than echidna. It certainly won't have 260 base damage, or whatever random number that guy came up with. I would estimate somewhere around 220 at the most.

Considering that's the crafted weapon, not a R/Ex one, the R/Ex one very well may be higher damage than Echidna's.

My bet is currently on somewhere between 240-250. 220 sounds, imo, more like what Gandiva will get. (And hopefully what the next bullets have as well)

Also "that guy" was me. lol

Also I never got an answer to if there was something I didn't see in your annihilator sets.

All relics have atypically low delays for their weapon type, that's why it's a STUPID unit of measure.

We've already seen the relics will be on par Damage wise and what to expect as far as upgraded stats.

To my knowledge, no R/EX delve boss item currently has a synthable equivalent, but all weapon types have a plasm version and one or the other of boss or synth weapons. These weapons generally follow a pattern. ~2700dps value for DD oriented plasm weapons. ~3180 for HQ synth weapons. ~3250 for Boss weapons.

The updated Excalibur falls a little under the HQ synth item, not accounting for damage procs.

This gives us a rough idea of what SE is aiming for.

Unless SE throws out the theme they've gone for or these new boss weapons have hidden damage mods, updated Yoichi is going to sh*t all over it.


Thinking Yoichi wouldn't have more than 220? Has your bow hatred made you HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE? You think the relic bow is gonna be the only updated relic nowhere close to their R/EX delve boss counterpart?

Oi... Ok here goes...

1) A. GreatKatana, Gun, Scythe, Sword, Axe, Polearm and probably others I can't remember offhand have normal-range delays. H2H is actually on the SLOWER end of its weapon-class's delay-spectrum. That's at least 7/14 (read: HALF) that don't fit your statment of "all"
B. It's the unit of measure Matsui seems to be going off with his sword examples, so it's what we'll be using for our speculations as well. Don't like it? Too bad. It's the most accurate comparison to be drawn at this stage.

2) Their "On-par"-ness, per Matsui-sword speculation, is still based on delay.

3) Where the hell did you get numbers that high for DPS? Strictly-weapon dps (nothing but the weapon's stats factored) is in the 2 digits + some decimals range, not the *** thousands.

4) What HQ synth item? The highest craftable HQ sword is bihkah sword +1 and current Excalibur already tops that, and the updated one would blow it away by miles.

5) Which is how we're reaching our conclusions that you seem to think are so inaccurate.

6) A1. They tried that on the 29th and landed in hot water.
A2. Remains to be seen.
B. What is "it"? Annihilator? Gandiva? Pronoun is way too vague for us to know what you're talking about.

7) A. His speculation's logic is sound, even if I think it's on the low end.
B. Fallacious question, ignored.
C. There is no R/Ex Delve counterpart bow to compare to.

There is no way to assume a higher delay bow will be superior until you math out triple relic procs vs difference in base damage. Relic could still be superior overall. Will have to wait and see.

The ability to switch between Namas/Jishnu's and the higher Racc/Ratk values on an updated Yoichi (presuming a non-atrocious base damage) would already make it the more practical choice over Knuckle's Bow +1. EB+1 will likely have higher JR numbers, but I'd take the practicality of having both NA/JR over the small boost to damage any day of the week.

Ok, wanna talk about shortbow vs long Delay/Damage comparison? Let's see here.

LVL. 75:
Yoichinoyumi: DMG: 81 Delay 524
Cerberus Bow +1: DMG: 73 Delay 582

What's this? The shortbow has more base damage thant he longbow? God forbid...

LVL. 80
Yoichinoyumi: DMG: 96 Delay: 524
Amazon Bow +1 DMG 80: Delay 582

LVL. 85
Yoichinoyumi: DMG: 102 Delay 524
(87)Bersault Bow +1: DMG: 90 Delay 582

LVL. 90
Yoichinoyumi DMG: 111 Delay 524
(No Longbow to compare to at this level)

LVL. 95
Yoichinoyumi: DMG: 118 Delay 524
(97)Nurigomeyumi +1: DMG: 96 Delay 582

You can't compare RME base damage to damage of normal weapons. And once stuff gets balanced again, that really all these Delve weapons are. They are new weapons starting off a brand new hierarchy of damage dealing. But they are still just normal weapons.

Going by this this logic how can you say Yoichi will have less base damage than the current new Longbow?

There are different sub-type of each weapon, and each one generally has the same delay, general damage range, general model, and general job list. Relics don't follow this outline. The highest damage swords are *** Swords. 233 is a Broadsword delay. *** Swords have a delay of 264. Excalibur was the highest damage sword in the game for years, but had a 233 delay, I call that atypical, and it ***'s on Helel's delay rant.


The DPS is the same method of listing as the AH site itself uses, simply plug in the decimal yourself 2 spaces to the left from the end ~2700 = ~27.00

You didn't read very well. The weapons that didn't get a delve boss weapon got a synthable alternative this time. I'm comparing something all the (basic) DD oriented weapons got, a plasm weapon, to establish a baseline from which to make REASONABLE ESTIMATES of future weapon stats.

Sword, Dagger, Axe, Great Axe, Great Sword, Scythe, Polearm, Katana, and Great Katana plasm weapons all have a pretty close dps value between 27.30 and 27.50

Sword, Dagger, Axe, Polearm, and Great Katana all got Delve Boss drops. If you look at them, the dps values for them are all similarly in a nice little range as well. 32.40 to 32.50.

Weapons that didn't get a delve boss drop all got synthable weapons pretty damn close in damage. The Great Axe, Great Sword, Scythe, Polearm, and Katana HQs all have a similarly close range just barely behind delve boss drops. 31.80 to 32.05

I left out clubs and staves because they're more magical weapons, as reflected by their stats, hth because they have unique delay calculations, and ranged weapons because they also function differently being compound weapons.

With this data we can estimate that the dps of the new hq synth weapons will be slightly below that of the Delve Boss counter parts. It gives us a reasonable guess as to what these new synth and Delve boss items will look like.

We can reasonably expect the updated relics to be close to the HQ Synth Items, and if they're that close, they'll be hard to beat thanks to ODD/OTD procs.

On top of this we know the new relic upgrades will far outclass plasm items, so expecting the Yoichi upgrade to put it at "somewhere around 220 at the most" is beyond HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE.


The only reason I'm not saying we can be sure of these is because SE f*cked gun hard with the damage update, though that's a wash with the fact all these numbers are post said update.

Yoichi is not a short bow. It is in its own class within archery, similar to how Aegis is its own shield class. All weapons types are like this, having sub-classes within each.

Yeah, and that's where I had a problem with it. If you hadn't included Coronach which had just been established as slightly better, not way better, I wouldn't have had a problem with it.

Dude, how stupid do you have to be to seriously not get that lower delay = lower base damage. It's that simple. Just because the base damage of the plasma bow is 221 doesn't mean that a 220 wouldn't outclass it. That's the whole point of the lower base damage.

Would you like another comparison? Look at lolhellfire +1 and yoichi (99). hellfire +1 has 2 less base damage than yoichi (99) with weapon + ammo combined. It's a level 75 weapon... You're calling me HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE because you think it will have a higher base damage than the plasma bow with 600 delay? Sorry, sir, but you are most certainly HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE if you think a 524 delay bow will have a greater base damage than a 582-600 delay bow (it certainly won't even come close to echidna's). It hardly beasts a 640 delay gun from level 75.

edit: typo.

Annihilator is much better BECAUSE it has access to both coronach AND last stand. I don't know how to make it any clearer. Yoichi has namas and refulgent/apex arrow.

^

My last stand is if you WS with scout's beret +2 (augment can proc on both hits). Coronach is not currently.

Recycle can proc on WS?

Yes, and on both hits, resulting in +10 TP for last stand, or +15 for JR if beret +2 is equipped.

Can't proc on shadowbind or bounty shot, so I usually bring along some crappy arrows/bullets to waste on those.

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Another comparison:

Burtgang: D131 Delay 264

vs

Buramenk'ah: D130 Delay 240

Open your eyes and see the light. Burtgang has one higher base damage and 24 more delay. What the hell makes you think a 524 delay bow is going to come close to 584 delay bow, ASSUMING echidna's bow is the rare/ex equivalent, which you (brain--ironic) seem to agree with. If agree that echidna is the rare/ex equivalent for bow, then you must also agree that yoichi will have less than 248 base damage. If you don't agree, then we have nothing further to discuss, because we could speculate for days about all the new ranged weapons they could introduce.

Excalibur: D121 Delay 233 - Less base damage than the rare/ex sword because it has 7 less delay. This should be an adequate indication of yoichi's base damage, if echidna's bow is the rare/ex equivalent of the delve sword. Again, if you don't believe that echidna's bow is the rare/ex equivalent then say so.

So we were comparing a 4hit Namas with a 4hit last stand ? We know last stand is better by a decent margin
I wanna see a coro 4hit and I'd like to see a viable 3hit with gun with sam roll still.

Since we are having a 4 page debate on speculation. Wouldn't Yoichi (post update) spamming JR be the best damage combo?

Had no idea on the recyle proc during WS, ty Helel.

No one knows. We are all arguing over unknown damage values. Again, lets just wait a few weeks for final numbers, them continue this pissing contest.

You guys just wait until we get Ormolu Bullets, 400 base dmg!



lol :(

This is a SAM roll 3hit with 1STP to spare. Made sure to get Sylvan Caban +2 in there because I know Helel would never use any other body. Need a SAM in your party with an 11 roll or you're screwed. However this set isn't viable to use on anything that is what we might consider endgame :)
ItemSet 300669

Forgot to add that you need to fulltime Scout's Beret +2 and it Recycle has to proc 100% of the time

My argument was that you'd be better off using echidna's bow for spamming JR post-update, or possibly even gandiva (I can't imagine they would make JR more useful on a non-empy weapon, but who knows). It is all speculation at this point, but I do believe that echidna's bow will remain the highest base damage bow, unless a new rare/ex one is released, in which case, you'd be better off using that one.


Swap sigyn to sylvan hands, scout's beret +2 for coronach and done. I'll come up with a 3-hit in a moment.

Helel have you ever done a serious event on RNG ?

So sam roll favor yoichi as I thought ? ty generic !

The chances of Jinshu's Radiance carrying the Aftermath onto other bows is infinitely small. Jinshu's will always be most potent on Gandiva, but it will open up a powerful WS for people.

Unless I'm doing the math wrong, you only need 21ish store TP in gear with an 11 sam roll. That would give you 71 store tp, which is exactly 33.3 per hit with 21 store tp (so you'd need 22 at least).