Carbuncle.Dagget said: »
Back on topic, +2 Crit Otronif Hands +1 for Smite?
Of course, this is only if you gear swap for weaponskills O_O
IiPunch - Monk Guide
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iiPunch - Monk Guide
Yes. Anchorite +1 was possibly best if the difference in dex was benefiting your crit rate enough, but Otronif +1 is only 2 less dex. Of course, this is only if you gear swap for weaponskills O_O pchan said: » The best set for tojil is defensive. Raptor and mata either hit hard or dont require dd gear, eft requires magic def, peiste requires dt, and turtle requires pdt. As such 4/5 otronif +1 and lithelimb cap seem best. Acc is not an issue so hesychast gloves are stupid to use. On tojil acc is not an issue, its eva is fairly low. You will need dt gear too so otronif +1 is best. Qaaxo is ok I suppose though, but not augmented with path A... That s why otomis doesnt want my opinion I guess ? Your opinion is fine as long as you back it up with math and numbers. However, most the time all you have to contribute is, "this dumb, you are stupid, they must be gimp". I clearly posted my set results via Mote's sheets using a full 119 gear set up with defense in mind. What I posted... This is just a haste set and ws set, I am finding Shijin Spiral 5/5 pulling ahead of Victory Smite with so much stat vomit going on; as well the huge increases we are gaining in Acc and Att. Sylph.Peldin said: » Of course, this is only if you gear swap for weaponskills O_O Would recommend swapping gear if you are about to get hit with heavy tp move or heavy magic to MDT / DT sets, which is what brings Otronif +1 into play. I am not seeing a great benefit from it in haste nor Shijin ws sets. Victory Smite may find 'victory' in lower lv content? The 3 sets I focus on are "Chapuli (102)" for soloing lower lv stuff farming pops etc, "Delve Fodder" Trash killing in higher end areas or farming newer seekers areas (I often make these 2 sets only considering myself solo no major buffs), and of course Tojil which I use for most end game content, pushing the acc a bit more in order to eat meat and not require acc buffs to preform. Marchx2 and Minuetx2 seem more effective then having a brd singing Madrigal. We have been using Rng strat on AAs DMII and New Delve, slowly incorporating Mnks. Only because it seems regardless if you full time a turtle set @ capped DT, you are still eating dirt to much to make Mnk dps productive. Otomis said: » Marchx2 and Minuetx2 seem more effective then having a brd singing Madrigal. We could go with Valor Minuet 3, but then we'd have to swap to either sushi or accuracy gear. Either swap I think is going to be less dps than the ~60 attack from Valor Minuet 3. ** Victory March cap is 96/1024 without instrument. Each +1 to march gives 16/1024. 99 Ghorn is +4 to all songs. AF3+2 legs is +1 to marches. Total of +5 to Victory March. Victory March then is 96/1024 + 80/1024 = 176/1024 (or 17% haste) SV doubles the effect, making it 352/1024 (or 34% haste) The spell, Haste, gives 15% haste. 34% + 15% = 49% Magic Haste Cap = 43% So as long as you are keeping haste up (or Haste Samba from a Dancer) you will be at magic haste cap without Advancing March. As for Victory Smite, those of us with Verethragna don't really have much of a choice. The only time I can really use Shijin Spiral is when I have AM3 up. Which is usually only the first 1.5 minutes of a fight. I've been finding Vere to be somewhat of a hindrance as of late. For Skirmish III I roam too much for AM1 to matter. For AA's accuracy is an issue if doing anything above Normal and if you swap to the Accuracy set to make use of AM1, you end up tanking and having to turtle again. I'm not sure about new Delve content as I have only done a few NMs and none of the really evasive ones.
Btw, Marcato does not stack with Soul Voice so unless you are doing a JA reset at some point, it's probably best for your BRD to save it for when songs start to wear if the fight drags on that long. Quote: so we go with Victory March, Blade Madrigal, Valor Minuet 5 (Marcato'd), and Valor Minuet 4 Don't bother mercato here, it doesn't stack with soul voice.
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Shiva.Alistrianna said: » Btw, Marcato does not stack with Soul Voice so unless you are doing a JA reset at some point, it's probably best for your BRD to save it for when songs start to wear if the fight drags on that long. And you do lol tojil which drops nothing worth of interest. I'm starting to think that delve v2 is nearly useless because you need something on the same EVA level as VD AA that deal about as much damage.
PS : I like mdk's 5% crit bonus from afterglow verethragna. And I have a feeling that we are going to get plethora of gimp gear/sidegrade until they decide to up the ilevel cap. The game is probably on pause progression wise until next september. Hoping for RME upgrades then. Quote: And you do lol tojil which drops nothing worth of interest. I'm starting to think that delve v2 is nearly useless because you need something on the same EVA level as VD AA that deal about as much damage.
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pchan said: » The best set for tojil is defensive. Raptor and mata either hit hard or dont require dd gear, eft requires magic def, peiste requires dt, and turtle requires pdt. As such 4/5 otronif +1 and lithelimb cap seem best. Acc is not an issue so hesychast gloves are stupid to use. On tojil acc is not an issue, its eva is fairly low. You will need dt gear too so otronif +1 is best. Qaaxo is ok I suppose though, but not augmented with path A... That s why otomis doesnt want my opinion I guess ?
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Otomis said: » pchan said: » The best set for tojil is defensive. Raptor and mata either hit hard or dont require dd gear, eft requires magic def, peiste requires dt, and turtle requires pdt. As such 4/5 otronif +1 and lithelimb cap seem best. Acc is not an issue so hesychast gloves are stupid to use. On tojil acc is not an issue, its eva is fairly low. You will need dt gear too so otronif +1 is best. Qaaxo is ok I suppose though, but not augmented with path A... That s why otomis doesnt want my opinion I guess ? Your opinion is fine as long as you back it up with math and numbers. However, most the time all you have to contribute is, "this dumb, you are stupid, they must be gimp". I clearly posted my set results via Mote's sheets using a full 119 gear set up with defense in mind. What I posted... This is just a haste set and ws set, I am finding Shijin Spiral 5/5 pulling ahead of Victory Smite with so much stat vomit going on; as well the huge increases we are gaining in Acc and Att. Sylph.Peldin said: » Of course, this is only if you gear swap for weaponskills O_O Would recommend swapping gear if you are about to get hit with heavy tp move or heavy magic to MDT / DT sets, which is what brings Otronif +1 into play. I am not seeing a great benefit from it in haste nor Shijin ws sets. Victory Smite may find 'victory' in lower lv content? The 3 sets I focus on are "Chapuli (102)" for soloing lower lv stuff farming pops etc, "Delve Fodder" Trash killing in higher end areas or farming newer seekers areas (I often make these 2 sets only considering myself solo no major buffs), and of course Tojil which I use for most end game content, pushing the acc a bit more in order to eat meat and not require acc buffs to preform. Marchx2 and Minuetx2 seem more effective then having a brd singing Madrigal. We have been using Rng strat on AAs DMII and New Delve, slowly incorporating Mnks. Only because it seems regardless if you full time a turtle set @ capped DT, you are still eating dirt to much to make Mnk dps productive. Mind showing your sets where Smite is being beat out by Shijin? Every way i've tried to tweak them around with high end gear and imp down, they're close, with smite still winning. With Imp up, smite is the winner pretty clearly. I suspect he artificially gimped his acc without noticing it, and since shijin gear comes with dex, it ends up more accurate, otherwise it's nonsense.
I checked out accuracy builds. With 2 x madrigal (non soul voice) and sushi, you need a mob of 1180 acc or more for tinhaspa(B) to beat spharai. This on the same level as AAMR (VD) btw. At this eva level spharai=tinhaspa. With 2x madrigal soul voice'd : 1260 EVA or more. i don't know of any mob of this eva level. With 2x madrigal (non sv) and geo buff ( non boilster) : 1260 With 2x madrigal (non sv) and geo buff ( boilster) : 1340 (unrealistic) With 2x madrigal ( sv) and geo buff ( non boilster) : 1340 (unrealistic) With 2x madrigal ( sv) and geo buff ( boilster) : 1420 (unrealistic) With 2x madrigal ( sv) and geo buff ( boilster) and hunter : 1440 (unrealistic) Now without madrigals or other acc buffs : 1090 eva or more. This is similar as AAGK(VD) (~1100). Now with attack food, no acc buff : 1010 eva pchan said: » I suspect he artificially gimped his acc without noticing it, and since shijin gear comes with dex, it ends up more accurate, otherwise it's nonsense. I checked out accuracy builds. With 2 x madrigal (non soul voice) and sushi, you need a mob of 1180 acc or more for tinhaspa(B) to beat spharai. This on the same level as AAMR (VD) btw. At this eva level spharai=tinhaspa. With 2x madrigal soul voice'd : 1260 EVA or more. i don't know of any mob of this eva level. With 2x madrigal (non sv) and geo buff ( non boilster) : 1260 With 2x madrigal (non sv) and geo buff ( boilster) : 1340 (unrealistic) With 2x madrigal ( sv) and geo buff ( non boilster) : 1340 (unrealistic) With 2x madrigal ( sv) and geo buff ( boilster) : 1420 (unrealistic) With 2x madrigal ( sv) and geo buff ( boilster) and hunter : 1440 (unrealistic) Now without madrigals or other acc buffs : 1090 eva or more. This is similar as AAGK(VD) (~1100). Now with attack food, no acc buff : 1010 eva The B path allows you to drop 20 acc from an acc set with however. It's pretty unrealistic to assume geo-buffs before cor buffs. COR brings much more to the table then a GEO does. Fantastic option for people not wanting to make a relic. The H2H Heirarchy remains the same with Glanz(any situation where maintaining a decent amount of AM3)>Vere/Spharai>others. Ran 7 tojils tonight with non relic brd singing 2x minuet and 1x march with soul voice using Clarion Call. Boost-Str from whm and Firestorm from sch, eating RCB, Ionis of course. Averging about ~3500 WS damage from Shijin Spiral. Until Kparser has new memloc, simply taking WS numbers after each fight and jotting them down, add em all up divide by number of ws, simple math. This is using the sets I posted previously.
What I find interesting is the performance is vastly ahead of what mote's sheets say it should be. Often time when I run parses I find set and Sheets to be relatively close. However this is before I.Lv. Is the I.Lv gear raising our player lv so much closer to a Tojil type target levels that it would create such difference? this is 7 fight with 12-16 WS a fight, limited of course by the in game log memory (can not scroll up past a certain point). Either way no ws really used 100-75% just 100-Fists with Formless, so not missing that much. ~100 WS on same mob with same situational buffs each time = close enough for rough data. Is anyone else noticing a huge boost in performance using full 119 sets + weapons. Near to the point it almost does not make sense out side of the fact player lv is that much closer to NM lv? Dagget: the sheets with set I am using are posted in the spoiler, just click to enlarge images. Shows set up page and gear set page. Just took a simple desktop screenshot uploaded them and posted them. Just find it so much easier to compare data this way; wish others would do the same with their results. Getting 1150 in the DPS & 2850 in WS calculation. This is with high end optimal buffs which is why I am finding it interesting to be averaging ~3500 with lesser buffs, Only 3 songs, no Def Down, No Impact, yet greater performance the sheet estimates. Using the exact same WS set, Same buffs I'm getting 3248 for Shijin
Buffs are SV min4/5 march1/2 Focus/Zerk/Imp Haste/Boost-dex Tachi Ageha:yes and impact. Without Madrigal Smite is still winning, with Mad or any secondary acc buff and swapping to boost-str, its not even close. Edit: So for your situation yes, either something is impacting your shijin values (possibly tojil's rotating damage phases?) or Tojil base defense is lower than assumed in the spreadsheet. Edit2: You;re not WSing at all during tojil's "resistant phase" but you are during 25%->dead, thats going to skew your numbers quite a bit. while the spreadsheet assumes he is neutral Otomis said: » Getting 1150 in the DPS & 2850 in WS calculation. This is with high end optimal buffs which is why I am finding it interesting to be averaging ~3500 with lesser buffs, Only 3 songs, no Def Down, No Impact, yet greater performance the sheet estimates. Gotta remember that the WS Damage pulled up in the Sheets is the Average over 1000 WS attempts vs your target. Given the Nature of VSmite, you may very well hit well above the average, aka "Hulk Moments" If you compiled 1000 Samples with those conditions as controlled as humanly possible, your Average should pull closer to Sheets. Also, against Tojil, did you remember to dump the WSs that were done at 100-75% HP and 25%-Dead? First Quarter on Tojil, your WS Damage will be hurt, and Last Quarter on Tojil, your WS Damage will be boosted, skewing your results. My main purpose for using Tojil as a model is because the thing has beefy stats and a lot of Defense. With this in mind, If my MNK is set to crush this thing, it will crush everything else that has Normal - Mid Evasion. Because of Tojil's Damage phases however, its difficult to get actual parse results from him. If you want to set for Evasive Targets, there's actually a pretty evasive mob that walks around freely that you can get samples from. It's the 125 Rabbits in Woh Gates. Fastest way to reach them is to walk from frontier station in Kamihr Drifts. If you can manage to cap Acc on that thing, your Acc is probably well built for dealing with most Evasive Targets lol So are you supposed to ws at all during hundred fists/formless or not? I've heard both ways for a long time now.
Quetzalcoatl.Waffless said: » So are you supposed to ws at all during hundred fists/formless or not? I've heard both ways for a long time now. Depends on your buffs. If you are Hasted + Marched, its better to throw WS while Hundred Fists is going. If you do not have Haste buffs, DO NOT WS while Hundred Fists is going. Reason for that being that every time you use a JA or WS, your Melee timer resets to neutral before it picks back up again. If you are fully hasted, your normal Delay is super low allowing you to WS without consequence. This can be further verified with spreadsheet. ***Edit*** Almost missed the Formless part. I personally throw WS as long as Im fully hasted. Its usually pretty good damage on Delve Bosses even with Blunt Resistance (1600~2500 VSmite) And with your Delay already capped or near-cap, its pretty much free damage. Obviously if your fighting something that takes almost No Blunt Damage, WSing wouldnt be advised but I don't think such a situation currently exists. Otomis said: » Until Kparser has new memloc, simply taking WS numbers after each fight and jotting them down, add em all up divide by number of ws, simple math. This is using the sets I posted previously. (If this was specifically for Tojil, because it seems like that was what you were implying) Better have a lot of numbers for that though. For one, COR rolls will add variability. The other source of variability is alliance setup and consistant performance of your ally. Tojil's 4 distinct weakness phases make it hard to determine WS averages for a good VS/Shijin comparison. For example, adding another MNK into the alliance will drop your total DPS(and WS averages) because the MNK is competing for the same Tojil Weakness phase as you are. The more MNK's you add, the less each MNK DPS(and WS averages) will be. This goes with underperforming/overperforming members of any job. If a SAM overperforms at 75%-25%, you spend less time at a neutral damage type and spend more time at 25%-0% when blunt is strong. I would suggest that, instead of using the full parse, using only numbers from a particular % of Tojil. For example, only compare during 100%-75%, 75%-50%, 50%-25%, or 25%-0%. This allows you to at least correct for alliance setups creating large swings. I'm not arguing that over many parses, you can find an answer. In the most fundamental way, it's correct. I just don't think you'll be able to find a solid answer in any reasonable amount of time averaging full parses.
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Otomis said: » I parsed and found better results than the speadsheet, so shijin > victory smite Ok come back to us when your shijin do 5k+, what a dumb way to conclude shijin beat vs... Bismarck.Keityan said: » Otomis said: » Until Kparser has new memloc, simply taking WS numbers after each fight and jotting them down, add em all up divide by number of ws, simple math. This is using the sets I posted previously. (If this was specifically for Tojil, because it seems like that was what you were implying) Better have a lot of numbers for that though. For one, COR rolls will add variability. The other source of variability is alliance setup and consistant performance of your ally. Tojil's 4 distinct weakness phases make it hard to determine WS averages for a good VS/Shijin comparison. For example, adding another MNK into the alliance will drop your total DPS(and WS averages) because the MNK is competing for the same Tojil Weakness phase as you are. The more MNK's you add, the less each MNK DPS(and WS averages) will be. This goes with underperforming/overperforming members of any job. If a SAM overperforms at 75%-25%, you spend less time at a neutral damage type and spend more time at 25%-0% when blunt is strong. I would suggest that, instead of using the full parse, using only numbers from a particular % of Tojil. For example, only compare during 100%-75%, 75%-50%, 50%-25%, or 25%-0%. This allows you to at least correct for alliance setups creating large swings. I'm not arguing that over many parses, you can find an answer. In the most fundamental way, it's correct. I just don't think you'll be able to find a solid answer in any reasonable amount of time averaging full parses. Aye will have to to a lot more testing to see. I use both alternately just depending on who is getting stunned/terror etc. Tending for spamming chaining Light between Shijin and VS, with occasional double light if we time/set it right not getting stunned. Have found this the best way to burn in under 5 mins. Shijin does push 5k, but only when weakness in last 25% of HP. I have partied with many relic, mythic, oats Mnks and no one is pushing 5k avg WS over the full extent of a battle with tojil. Once again TY you for your wonderful contribution with actual facts and figures, maybe a SS of the gear sets you use, parse data, SS of Sheet set optimization; Pchan? Does anyone know Tinhaspa's rank C path? I just got a pair, and while I'm mostly on PUP I figured a tinhaspa question would get more attention on the mnk forums. I've seen path A and path B, but not path C =(
If Monk wasn't already OP, for its sub or grip spot, they should come out with some wrist wraps. Ive been saying this since they first introduced the grips back in '08 i believe.
Yandaime said: » Quetzalcoatl.Waffless said: » So are you supposed to ws at all during hundred fists/formless or not? I've heard both ways for a long time now. Depends on your buffs. If you are Hasted + Marched, its better to throw WS while Hundred Fists is going. If you do not have Haste buffs, DO NOT WS while Hundred Fists is going. Reason for that being that every time you use a JA or WS, your Melee timer resets to neutral before it picks back up again. If you are fully hasted, your normal Delay is super low allowing you to WS without consequence. This can be further verified with spreadsheet. ***Edit*** Almost missed the Formless part. I personally throw WS as long as Im fully hasted. Its usually pretty good damage on Delve Bosses even with Blunt Resistance (1600~2500 VSmite) And with your Delay already capped or near-cap, its pretty much free damage. Obviously if your fighting something that takes almost No Blunt Damage, WSing wouldnt be advised but I don't think such a situation currently exists. JA and WS delay have nothing to do with your amount of haste, rly. They're static values, 2 seconds per action with 1s being removed for each concurrent one. If anything, WSing or using a JA with more haste is hurting you more than if you were to WS with less.
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Can anyone post their best sets for Haste and for Victory Smite? Using Items sets on ffxiah.com. Also with a full listing of buff set up, 3-4 songs SV(yes/no), Cor(yes/no) Food, etc on Tojil Settings. Screen shot of sheet would be great but would just liek the full story so I can check them vs other sets I am comparing.
Valefor.Prothescar said: » JA and WS delay have nothing to do with your amount of haste, rly. They're static values, 2 seconds per action with 1s being removed for each concurrent one. If anything, WSing or using a JA with more haste is hurting you more than if you were to WS with less. Oops, you got me there, my previous understanding of Hundred Fists was that after an action, you would reset to your base Delay until you swung again to resume the flurry but I looked it up again and it doesn't work that way. However, WSing while Hundred Fists is up should still be beneficial. I wont go into the boring details but my normal settup vs Tojil with Haste, Both Marches, HF and WSing, DPS = 1315.616 Same settup without WSing, DPS = 1106.550. So its still helping, Thats a 15.9% Damage increase from WSing doing normal Damage, 7.95% Increase during a Resistant Phase (First-Quarter Tojil) Mrrr. I have always been told from way back to not preform actions during 100-Fists. Might have to start WS see if the loss in punch-mania worth the extra damage from ws's.
I do remember the days where WSing while Hundred Fists was up, was bad but that was back at 75. Also, at 75, MNK WSs were rather weak, especially against big NMs like Kirin. So my best guess is that it's better these days because of our WSs being a great deal stronger than they were before.
But it should be pretty simple, In order for Wsing while Hundred Fists is up, your WS would need to do more damage than the number of hits you would have thrown during the animation. The spreadsheet is showing in increase in Damage while Hundred Fisting so I'm go with that til I get a chance to actually sit down and try to test it
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Ragnarok.Flyingsquirrel said: » Does anyone know Tinhaspa's rank C path? I just got a pair, and while I'm mostly on PUP I figured a tinhaspa question would get more attention on the mnk forums. I've seen path A and path B, but not path C =( path C is: Atk DEX STP Quetzalcoatl.Waffless said: » So are you supposed to ws at all during hundred fists/formless or not? I've heard both ways for a long time now. Formless Strikes - depends. If you are fighting something like Tojil, then yes, weaponskill, because he doesn't gain a resistance to blunt during 100%-76%. He's just weaker to magic. So formless does more than your regular hits but it's not amazing. However for other things, like custard NMs that have an extraordinary amount of PDT, using a WS wouldn't be much more damage than a normal formless strikes hit. So the action delay of the weaponskill would end up making you lose dps. This is personally how I do the first 25% of Tojil (keep in mind I have Vere 119): - formless strikes/berzerk/aggressor on pull - if at 300 TP, victory smite, then hundred fists - if > 200 TP, build to 300 TP, then victory smite, then formless - if < 200 TP, hundred fists, build to 300 tp, then victory smite - auto attack until 75%, then victory smite, and cancel formless strikes during VS animation I think because of AM3, it's more beneficial for me to do it this way, but I haven't ran any numbers to prove that. I do pretty much the same thing with the exception of regardless of TP, formless strikes is popped when Tojil is otw to me. It lasts long enough and Tojil dies fast enough that the 3:30 duration should never be a problem. I also keep WS'ing even after the first Smite.
Most of the parses I have been a part of I am usually ahead of second place by a decent chunk of damage, usually 20k, sometimes higher depending on the group I go with. I've seen as high as 100k differences in damage with some linkshell runs. I feel that part of those differences are due to other MNKs not WS'ing during HF and in some instances, still using Boost. Pretty much all of those results have been with 18 person groups too. I've yet to actually set foot in with 6 ppl and manage to clear. |
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