Dafuq Relic Shud I Maek? Because every argument has already been made
Now with 30% less Comic Sans!
So, liek, you've burned your Beastmaster to 99 and you're ready to go fight over nightmare mobs in dreamlands Dynamis with the rest of your server. But, you don't know which relic to make? Fortunately, 50 other people made a thread before you and contrary to what you may believe, your situation is not unique.
Overview Guttler, like most relic weapons, is straight damage upgrade. It is BST's highest damage weapon out of realistic options (Aymur might be situationally better? Do we care? Not really!). However, since Guttler obviously represents a massive financial investment you could, at the very least, use on another relic for another job, there are some pretty broad existential questions about game priorities you need to ask yourself that we'll get to in a bit. For now, just keep in mind Guttler is your best damage option for BST.
(a.) Strengths and Weaknesses Guttler's straight damage. Like all one-hand relics, it gives a big attack boost, a choke effect (VIT down) that maybe helps you get a bit closer towards meeting its pretty-impressively-high weapon rank of 9 (at 95+), and even though Onslaught is unfortunately fairly bad even by relic WS standards (doubly unfortunate because the aftermath is actually pretty awesome as relic AMs go, but the 20 second duration for 100 TP is never going to get you to another WS on BST so you don't really get the opportunity to mix up Onslaught and Ruinator), Guttler lends itself well to spamming Ruinator, which is arguably the best WS in the game considered independently of weapon type.
(b.) Does this weapon fundamentally alter or create roles for the job? The downside (other than Ruinator eclipsing Onslaught) is that it is a weapon for BST, and while it's the best a BST can do, you're ultimately going to run into the scaling issues that give BST so much trouble on higher-end content. Guttler DOES NOT change the game for a BST. But again, you're a BST, so if you have the right attitude and are playing to your strengths you shouldn't necessarily care about that.
(c.) In what situations is the weapon used? You'll make good use of Guttler in any situation where you'll melee as BST.
(d.) How frequent do these situations arise? These situations arise quite a bit more often than people seem to think. Snarl is pretty great, and since you're likely subbing DNC or NIN for DW, in either case you have some tool to mitigate much of the AoE damage you could potentially suffer on a larger NM.
(e.) In what situations is the weapon trumped by another option and how frequently do these situations occur? In such situations, Guttler's going to come out on top every time. The most common competitors I see mentioned are DA or Fire magian axes, and Guttler is a clear upgrade from those (and has a HUGE delay advantage over the DA, I might add).
(f.) Is the weapon still functional when not fully upgraded (lv95) Since Onslaught's not very good, I personally don't think Guttler gains much from going past 95; 99, notably, does not gain a weapon rank. Obviously 99 is better, but not nearly as much as with relics whose WSes are actually "good".
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) What are the weapon's major competitors? Guttler doesn't really have any meaningful competition for BST specifically, unless we're counting mythics, and we're not because *** you. Farsha is bad because Cloudsplitter is bad and Empyreans live or die by their WSes. The real competition is a relic for another job that would be more competitive in a group setting.
(b.) When is this weapon superior to its major competitors? ...which brings us to the central soul-searching question you need to ask yourself as a BST interested in Guttler: are the various EP-to-EM-related mulchfests I wail on as BST important enough to me personally to invest in a Guttler over something like Ragnarok or Annihilator that would help me in a large group? This is not a simple question of job loyalty, mind you; Gungnir is bad because DRG is bad, and DRG is bad because it's heavily outstripped by other jobs in everything it does. BST, OTOH, is the undisputed king of what IT does, and you would never question making, say, an Ukonvasara for a WAR that was your best option for the content to which you brought it. In fact, you could say it's even greater than that, because, say, a 10% damage increase in the solo situations that BST finds itself translates into much greater results than an equivalent output increase in a situation where you have 17 other people to fall back on.
I'm not necessarily saying you should make a Guttler. All I'm saying is that the answer to this, maybe more than any other relic, is one that only you yourself can really provide.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) When is or isn't this the weapon for you? Guttler obviously might be for you if you love the ***out of the flexibility and independence BST provides. The master is not by any means a weak partner in the relationship between master and pet, and Ruinator is quite easy to build up to genuinely impressive levels. But it IS a substantial investment, and is not going to make your BST anything other than a BST.
On the upshot, you can use it to make another relic that much quicker! It pays for itself (if you have a year to blow in Dynamis)!
Are there any other considerations? Also, not for nothing, Guttler is a 10,000 shell relic and will thus in the current economy be substantially cheaper than other options.
(1.) Overview Mandau gives access to Mercy Stroke. It is D55/175 Delay and has 13.33% Triple Damage proc rate on the first swing of each round that uses it. It also has a 10 Damage/tick en-poison.
Mercy Stroke is 3.0 fTP and 60% STR. Using it with Mandau will give you a Critical Hit Rate +5% aftermath (both hands) that lasts for 20~60 seconds at 100~300TP.
Benefits: This weapon substantially boosts Attack (which dagger jobs need) and gives access to a good SA/TA WS for THF. It can be main-handed in all situations, except perhaps when you are evasion tanking something so incredibly accurate that you need to use two AGI Thokchas. There is no time when another weapon is a better for damage.
Weaknesses: This weapon has no specific weaknesses and does not create a fundamentally unique role for the job. Also, Mandau is one of the few weapons that benefits majorly from the upgrade to 99.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
Competitors: Twashtar (BRD and THF), Almace (RDM)
Mandau is superior to Twashtar almost all of the time at level 99, and level 95 Mandau is superior to level <90 Twashtar all the time. Twashtar's major advantage is its 20 DEX, which may change your dDEX crit rate if you aren't already capped. This is a non-issue if you offhand Twashtar, though, which is ideal.
Mandau is never superior to Almace for RDM.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
You should not choose this weapon if your goal is to do epeen awesome damage and win all the parses against heavy DDs. Mandau is a very good weapon, but it does not make THF into a heavy DD. It makes good THF better than bad DDs.
You should choose this weapon if your goal is to improve your THF's damage in the situations where you use it already. Thief is primarily used for Treasure Hunter, and as a result it is used very frequently. The events where you use THF will be faster and smoother if you are using Mandau, and that should be your motivation for getting this weapon.
As far as other considerations, you need to take Mandau to 99 for it to really shine. The last +15% Mercy Stroke damage opens up new ways to use the WS.
You will likely cap fSTR in each case. Mercy Stroke has more STR (and thus Attack) than Exenterator, but Exenterator has an unverified 5% Attack boost associated with it so you can sort of call it a wash. Exenterator also will hit the round-cap if you TA twice, while Mercy Stroke will not. This is not corrected for.
So Exenterator will do <14% more damage unstacked, but you get an extra 5% crit rate for up to 60 seconds after Mercy Stroke so it might be worth using uncapped if you have high TP outside Abyssea. Note that this is just napkin math and some claim the difference is even smaller than this. Exenterator doesn't benefit from TP.
(a.) What are the weapon's strengths and weaknesses?
(b.) Does this weapon fundamentally alter or create roles for the job?
{c.) In what situations is the weapon used?
(d.) How frequent do these situations arise?
(e.) In what situations is the weapon trumped by another option and how frequently do these situations occur?
(f.) Is the weapon still functional when not fully upgraded (lv95)
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) What are the weapon's major competitors?
(b.) When is this weapon superior to its major competitors?
(c.) What is the relative position (provide numbers where
possible) of the weapon and its competitors in situations where it's relevant to consider? (e.g. You shouldn't worry about the position of Claustrum in Legion).
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) When is this the weapon for you?
e.g. You should choose this weapon if ...
You should not choose this weapon if ...
(b.) Are there any other considerations?
Everyone should always make Mandau because SE might add Dancer to it some day and remove the offhand limitation on relic stats, which would make it better than Twashtar.
All right! If you would like to reserve a weapon for analysis, feel free to do so now. I'm going to reserve Mjöllnir.
will you be including the umlaut as applicable
(i would volunteer for amano but that's actually touchy and i have a feeling my freewheeling waggish disposition would result in your excellent thread getting totally shitted up with flames)
(a.) It has every strength and no weaknesses.
(b.) This weapon makes you God. There are no downsides.
{c.) It is used in every situation.
(d.) These situations arise every femtosecond.
(e.) This weapon is never outclassed, to speak as such is heresy.
(f.) THis weapon is functional as early as Relic Staff, retaining its usefulness throughout its entire lifespan.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) There is no competition for Claustrum. Claustrum is the greatest that there is and ever will be.
(b.) Claustrum is perhaps the only weapon in the game that trumps all other options whenever it has had a full balanced breakfast including a bowl of rice crispies.
(c.) Using french sums, I've devised a system of modeling Claustrum's relative power level. I find the fact that I wouldn't worry about using the best weapon in the game in legion offensive, so I am ignoring that.
Since french sums are so amazingly complex and outside of the bounds of normal human thinking, I've constructed a diagram to show you what I mean instead of typing out the numbers.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) You should use this weapon if you want to win the game. There is no genuine situation wherein you would not want to win the game, therefor there is no situation where you should not use Claustrum.
(b.) ATTACK DOWN
Dafuq Relic Shud I Maek? Because every argument has already been made
Now with 30% less Comic Sans!
So, liek, you've burned your Beastmaster to 99 and you're ready to go fight over nightmare mobs in dreamlands Dynamis with the rest of your server. But, you don't know which relic to make? Fortunately, 50 other people made a thread before you and contrary to what you may believe, your situation is not unique.
Overview Guttler, like most relic weapons, is straight damage upgrade. It is BST's highest damage weapon out of realistic options (Aymur might be situationally better? Do we care? Not really!). However, since Guttler obviously represents a massive financial investment you could, at the very least, use on another relic for another job, there are some pretty broad existential questions about game priorities you need to ask yourself that we'll get to in a bit. For now, just keep in mind Guttler is your best damage option for BST.
(a.) Strengths and Weaknesses Guttler's straight damage. Like all one-hand relics, it gives a big attack boost, a choke effect (VIT down) that maybe helps you get a bit closer towards meeting its pretty-impressively-high weapon rank of 9 (at 95+), and even though Onslaught is unfortunately fairly bad even by relic WS standards (doubly unfortunate because the aftermath is actually pretty awesome as relic AMs go, but the 20 second duration for 100 TP is never going to get you to another WS on BST so you don't really get the opportunity to mix up Onslaught and Ruinator), Guttler lends itself well to spamming Ruinator, which is arguably the best WS in the game considered independently of weapon type.
(b.) Does this weapon fundamentally alter or create roles for the job? The downside (other than Ruinator eclipsing Onslaught) is that it is a weapon for BST, and while it's the best a BST can do, you're ultimately going to run into the scaling issues that give BST so much trouble on higher-end content. Guttler DOES NOT change the game for a BST. But again, you're a BST, so if you have the right attitude and are playing to your strengths you shouldn't necessarily care about that.
(c.) In what situations is the weapon used? You'll make good use of Guttler in any situation where you'll melee as BST.
(d.) How frequent do these situations arise? These situations arise quite a bit more often than people seem to think. Snarl is pretty great, and since you're likely subbing DNC or NIN for DW, in either case you have some tool to mitigate much of the AoE damage you could potentially suffer on a larger NM.
(e.) In what situations is the weapon trumped by another option and how frequently do these situations occur? In such situations, Guttler's going to come out on top every time. The most common competitors I see mentioned are DA or Fire magian axes, and Guttler is a clear upgrade from those (and has a HUGE delay advantage over the DA, I might add).
(f.) Is the weapon still functional when not fully upgraded (lv95) Since Onslaught's not very good, I personally don't think Guttler gains much from going past 95; 99, notably, does not gain a weapon rank. Obviously 99 is better, but not nearly as much as with relics whose WSes are actually "good".
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) What are the weapon's major competitors? Guttler doesn't really have any meaningful competition for BST specifically, unless we're counting mythics, and we're not because fuck you. Farsha is bad because Cloudsplitter is bad and Empyreans live or die by their WSes. The real competition is a relic for another job that would be more competitive in a group setting.
(b.) When is this weapon superior to its major competitors? ...which brings us to the central soul-searching question you need to ask yourself as a BST interested in Guttler: are the various EP-to-EM-related mulchfests I wail on as BST important enough to me personally to invest in a Guttler over something like Ragnarok or Annihilator that would help me in a large group? This is not a simple question of job loyalty, mind you; Gungnir is bad because DRG is bad, and DRG is bad because it's heavily outstripped by other jobs in everything it does. BST, OTOH, is the undisputed king of what IT does, and you would never question making, say, an Ukonvasara for a WAR that was your best option for the content to which you brought it. In fact, you could say it's even greater than that, because, say, a 10% damage increase in the solo situations that BST finds itself translates into much greater results than an equivalent output increase in a situation where you have 17 other people to fall back on.
I'm not necessarily saying you should make a Guttler. All I'm saying is that the answer to this, maybe more than any other relic, is one that only you yourself can really provide.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) When is or isn't this the weapon for you? Guttler obviously might be for you if you love the shit out of the flexibility and independence BST provides. The master is not by any means a weak partner in the relationship between master and pet, and Ruinator is quite easy to build up to genuinely impressive levels. But it IS a substantial investment, and is not going to make your BST anything other than a BST.
On the upshot, you can use it to make another relic that much quicker! It pays for itself (if you have a year to blow in Dynamis)!
Are there any other considerations? Also, not for nothing, Guttler is a 10,000 shell relic and will thus in the current economy be substantially cheaper than other options.
(1.) Overview Mandau gives access to Mercy Stroke. It is D55/175 Delay and has 13.33% Triple Damage proc rate on the first swing of each round that uses it. It also has a 10 Damage/tick en-poison.
Mercy Stroke is 3.0 fTP and 60% STR. Using it with Mandau will give you a Critical Hit Rate +5% aftermath (both hands) that lasts for 20~60 seconds at 100~300TP.
Benefits: This weapon substantially boosts Attack (which dagger jobs need) and gives access to a good SA/TA WS for THF. It can be main-handed in all situations, except perhaps when you are evasion tanking something so incredibly accurate that you need to use two AGI Thokchas. There is no time when another weapon is a better for damage.
Weaknesses: This weapon has no specific weaknesses and does not create a fundamentally unique role for the job. Also, Mandau is one of the few weapons that benefits majorly from the upgrade to 99.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
Competitors: Twashtar (BRD and THF), Almace (RDM)
Mandau is superior to Twashtar almost all of the time at level 99, and level 95 Mandau is superior to level <90 Twashtar all the time. Twashtar's major advantage is its 20 DEX, which may change your dDEX crit rate if you aren't already capped. This is a non-issue if you offhand Twashtar, though, which is ideal.
Mandau is never superior to Almace for RDM.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
You should not choose this weapon if your goal is to do epeen awesome damage and win all the parses against heavy DDs. Mandau is a very good weapon, but it does not make THF into a heavy DD. It makes good THF better than bad DDs.
You should choose this weapon if your goal is to improve your THF's damage in the situations where you use it already. Thief is primarily used for Treasure Hunter, and as a result it is used very frequently. The events where you use THF will be faster and smoother if you are using Mandau, and that should be your motivation for getting this weapon.
As far as other considerations, you need to take Mandau to 99 for it to really shine. The last +15% Mercy Stroke damage opens up new ways to use the WS.
You will likely cap fSTR in each case. Mercy Stroke has more STR (and thus Attack) than Exenterator, but Exenterator has an unverified 5% Attack boost associated with it so you can sort of call it a wash. Exenterator also will hit the round-cap if you TA twice, while Mercy Stroke will not. This is not corrected for.
So Exenterator will do <14% more damage unstacked, but you get an extra 5% crit rate for up to 60 seconds after Mercy Stroke so it might be worth using uncapped if you have high TP outside Abyssea. Note that this is just napkin math and some claim the difference is even smaller than this. Exenterator doesn't benefit from TP.
